Artifact Creation

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Post by Banduk » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:57 am

Artifact Creation

We have the skill “Artifact Creation” and the need for travel books (See http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11574). Since travel books as the only artifact might be not sufficient to support a whole skill here a proposal for artifact creation.

Background:
  • Mages and priests can create magical loaded items. This we call artifacts. I concentrate here for the mages.
  • In one branch are the glyphed items. These items have a number of charges with unpredictable effect trigger. The user has no influence, when an effect is triggered. There is a probability the carrier remains once all charges were used.
  • The other branch contains the one time artifacts. These items contain a single predictable effect. The user can control when the effect should be happen. The one time artifact disappears with the effect and can never be used again.
Creation of one time artifacts:
Basically creation of one time artifacts is a craft, performed by mages.
Tool: quill
Static tool: Mage desk (itemID 550, 551 https://imgur.com/bWqQ4qA)
There should be a static tool in each realm as well as one in the wilderness.
The work will take time, food and mana.

Intermediate products:
The work will need an item that can be converted into an artifact and some consumables. The most popular intermediate items should be able to be produced by any crafter:
fur => parchment (tanning, same as leather)
anger berry + ink bottle => ink (herblore at oil press) (old replaced: coal + water + ink bottle => ink (tanning, same as make dye))
glass ingot => glass ball (glass blower)

Final products:
Possible products and effects see link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

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Post by Jupiter » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:01 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

Banduk wrote:coal + water + ink bottle => ink (tanning, same as make dye)
My plan was always to use the anger berry for ink producing. It's old druid roleplay stuff tha tthey can be used for that.

I would also use the oil press (herblore) for that.

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Post by Banduk » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

Jupiter wrote:
Banduk wrote:coal + water + ink bottle => ink (tanning, same as make dye)
My plan was always to use the anger berry for ink producing. It's old druid roleplay stuff tha tthey can be used for that.

I would also use the oil press (herblore) for that.
I remember I even tried that years ago ... without success. We should take that.

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:32 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

What about a summon monster effect and the item is used as a control catalyst. The summoned monster would follow the character and do nothing unless ordered with the catalyst. The effect could last until the monster is killed and or until a timer finishes. Some options for the catalyst would be 'Go here' 'Attack' and 'Dismiss' etc when used after the monster is summoned. Maybe there can be a stat check to determine when the monster is summoned whether it will be under the control of the catalyst or whether the summoner has to deal with a hostile summoned creature.

I noticed in the Ars magicka there's no mention of mages being able to summon creatures, which is common in high fantasy.

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Post by Vern Kron » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:01 am

Re: Artifact Creation

Charlotte-ate-wilbur wrote:What about a summon monster effect and the item is used as a control catalyst. The summoned monster would follow the character and do nothing unless ordered with the catalyst. The effect could last until the monster is killed and or until a timer finishes. Some options for the catalyst would be 'Go here' 'Attack' and 'Dismiss' etc when used after the monster is summoned. Maybe there can be a stat check to determine when the monster is summoned whether it will be under the control of the catalyst or whether the summoner has to deal with a hostile summoned creature.

I noticed in the Ars magicka there's no mention of mages being able to summon creatures, which is common in high fantasy.
I think that might be listed under druid stuff.

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:13 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

I know and I noticed some priests would be able to summon undead too, though usually magicians or magic users have alot more summoning options in high fantasy, often being able to summon any manner of creature whereas druid or natural classes would only be able to control natural creatures and priests would only be able to control properly aligned creatures (unfortunately we dont seem to have 'good' monsters via lore that priests could use) while the wizard or the sorcerer could summon a creature regardless of where they were from or what they are aligned to but usually at a much greater risk of dealing with hostility.

Granted Illarion isn't DnD or traditional high fantasy it's a gem of its own, this is just something I'd really like to see.

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Post by Banduk » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:56 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

If there are will be no order to stop these project I'll start the realization in a week and will have it ready for the dev server latest end of January.

Banduk

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Post by Banduk » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

A short update:
For now 5 days I'm working 1-3 hrs a day on the project.
The whole production and the following artifacts are already finished:
  • Magic arrows
  • Portal scroll for a single person to teleporter
  • Portal book to teleporter
  • Portal book to wilderness
  • Glass ball person finder for a single person
  • Glass ball person finder for three chars
With a few days testing I think I have it ready on the 2018-01-09.

There is one question.
There is a degradation of mana use. An artifact a 0% mage needs 100% mana, a 100% mage can make 7 artifacts with 100% mana.
According to the design principles the functions should be linear. The point is, what should be linear?
  • a: The mana need. So a 50% mage needs 56.5 % of his mana and can do the artifact one time. There is a huge boost at the end.
    b: The number of artifacts the mage can do. So a 50% mage would need 28.5 % of his mana and can do 3.5 times the artifact.
No matter what you want, the math will never be simple (y=a*(m+(1-m)*(100-x)/100) <==> y=a/((m-1)/100*x+1)).
I prefer b: and implemented that yet.

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:12 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

Banduk wrote: [*]Glass ball person finder for a single person
[*]Glass ball person finder for three chars[/list]
Wait... what? What exactly is this about?

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Post by Banduk » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Artifact Creation

Katharina Ross wrote:
Banduk wrote: [*]Glass ball person finder for a single person
[*]Glass ball person finder for three chars[/list]
Wait... what? What exactly is this about?
Please see the top of the thread. There is a link to a list of all effects.

The Gass ball shows you the direction of a selected char.

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Post by Jupiter » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Artifact Creation

How does that work with glass blass? I use the glass ball and then it says "Some person is in the far east from you"? Do I get a new person on every use or does it stay conncetd to the same person? I also see a problem: If there are only two people online, and one is a mage using the ball, it is clear that the other person becomes the target. That seems a bit cheaty to me. For the advances ball: How are the person's listed? By name? If so, they should only be listed if you have named them (or got an #i), but I don't think we have the lua functiosn to do that. I don't like the idea of showing characters' names when the character using the item doesn't know them (same proble mfor the feather).

I am not sure about the namer effect. That could very easily use to very bad results. I prefer that crafters can requests such things from GMs.

However, the portals stuff and the arrow are already good things. I would like to have them ingame asap :)

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Post by JacobB » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:48 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

In my opinion, most of the items listed and proposed in the "Final Products" spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing) are questionable, because they add too high advantages to those players who can produce or own those items. E.g. glass balls to find treasures (makes perception based character builds useless) or find characters (makes it impossible to keep a character hidden, that is a no-go for the "bad" character fraction imo), one-person-only portal books (it's like a mighty "disappear" skill), etc.

Good suggestions imo are the magical arrows and the "namer" item.

I propose a review of the "final products" before they are implemented and added to the game.

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Post by Banduk » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:09 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

Glass ball person finder:
The glass ball as every other artifact is a consumable and can be used one time only. It dissappears once you used it. If you don't chose a person out of the list it disapears as well.
The glass ball shows the position of a single person only. For one person simply mean the glass ball shows you one random person, for 3 persons the glass ball shows the picture of 3 random persons and you have to chose one to learn where the person might be.
I really would like a function with the names the char know in game. But such a function doesn't exists and we all know it's an illusion to belive such function might be implemented into the server at any time before 2030. Therefor I used dedicated texts referring to 'pictures of the person' and not the name see https://imgur.com/a/lgyhc. I think the pictures show also how the function works.
Nevertheless I think such an item will be usefull especially with a few chars online only. Having the capability to get a hint where the few other playing characters might be couild help the RP.

Vision feather
I'm with you Jupiter, a message to another char should be handled with care. But it is a different thing compared to the glass ball. I think we can make the item in a way the receiver have to activate the item. So a message can be sent to an online char, who gives you the vision feather activated to himself or herself before.

Namer
I don't see an issue. The item requires a pure element and can be used for a single item only. That's not just for fun and if so, we can simply search the database for named items and remove what we don't like. I'll provide the related SQL for the GM's. I had more thoughts with typos or making sure the char get a chance to verify the input.

Treasure finder
Finding a treasure without searching doesn't need and high perception. There is even a Mantis about (http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11195) but I don't expect any decision here before 2030. And please take into consideration, one treasure finder helps you to localize one treasure only. Then it is lost.

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Post by Banduk » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:10 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

@Jacob
Ich würde mich freuen, wenn Bedenken und Vorschläge zu Funktionen angebracht werden, wenn diese als Konzept vorliegen oder spätestens wenn die Realisierung angekündigt wird. Wenn dann nach erfolgter Realisierung der Code exakt nach Konzept vorliegt das Ganze mit Bausch und Boden für unsinnig zu erklären, halte ich für etwas spät. Siehe auch weiter oben.
Wenn es sich bei Illarion auch eigebürgert hat über eine Idee 5 Jahre zu reden ohne zu einer Entscheidung zu kommen, das ist eigentlich nicht mein Stil. Entweder ich schreibe explizit (siehe My Dream), dass eine Realisierung ausgeschlossen ist oder ich bin in der Lage, so was auch zu machen. Spätestens wenn ich schreibe, dass ich das Thema angehe, kanst du damit rechnen, dass die angegeben Termine weitgehend gültig sind.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:57 am

Re: Artifact Creation

Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should. To encourage stalking with engine help.. should it be done? We have ways of finding those to RP with by using irc or forum. Some may prefer not to be found and that is their prerogative.

As far as PO Jacob's proposal on the other aspects....
I propose a review of the "final products" before they are implemented and added to the game.
It sounds very reasonable to me. I plan on doing some testing and encourage others to do the same. I'll be looking forward to hearing from all, thanks.

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Post by Karrock » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:09 am

Re: Artifact Creation

Banduk wrote:If there are will be no order to stop these project I'll start the realization in a week and will have it ready for the dev server latest end of January.

Banduk
I agree with Jacob that this project has a weak sides, but Banduk contained all elements of a concept here and put a time for feedback and after days he announced that he will start, so I think now debating is no sense.

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Post by snus-mumrik » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:41 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

Achae Eanstray wrote:To encourage stalking with engine help.. should it be done? We have ways of finding those to RP with by using irc or forum. Some may prefer not to be found and that is their prerogative.
What about a counter-artifact that is cheaper (and easier to make) than the finder. Say, if you hold the "hider" on the belt (maybe a stack of them) and the "finder" attempted to locate you than it fails and both "finder" and "hider" are consumed. Is it possible to implement?

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:48 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

snus-mumrik wrote:
Achae Eanstray wrote:To encourage stalking with engine help.. should it be done? We have ways of finding those to RP with by using irc or forum. Some may prefer not to be found and that is their prerogative.
What about a counter-artifact that is cheaper (and easier to make) than the finder. Say, if you hold the "hider" on the belt (maybe a stack of them) and the "finder" attempted to locate you than it fails and both "finder" and "hider" are consumed. Is it possible to implement?
+1

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Post by rakust dorenstkzul » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:28 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

On top of the things suggested, perhaps it would be good to know how specific these finders would be? Would it be a case of "Bilbo is in the vicinity of Cadomyr" or "Bilbo is in the Unicorn Lion Tavern, by the water,"

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Post by Banduk » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:03 am

Re: Artifact Creation

rakust dorenstkzul wrote:On top of the things suggested, perhaps it would be good to know how specific these finders would be? Would it be a case of "Bilbo is in the vicinity of Cadomyr" or "Bilbo is in the Unicorn Lion Tavern, by the water,"
Same as the location message of the treasures.
"The person seems to be far south of you."
see: https://imgur.com/a/lgyhc

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Post by Banduk » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:08 am

Re: Artifact Creation

snus-mumrik wrote:
Achae Eanstray wrote:To encourage stalking with engine help.. should it be done? We have ways of finding those to RP with by using irc or forum. Some may prefer not to be found and that is their prerogative.
What about a counter-artifact that is cheaper (and easier to make) than the finder. Say, if you hold the "hider" on the belt (maybe a stack of them) and the "finder" attempted to locate you than it fails and both "finder" and "hider" are consumed. Is it possible to implement?
I like that idea and will put it into the code. Let me think bout any fancy idea until the morrow. Something like "Sand of confusion".
I'll do it in a way one have to have the item in the belt so the person easily can control whether it works or not.

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Post by Banduk » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:23 am

Re: Artifact Creation

one-person-only portal books (it's like a mighty "disappear" skill)
Basically the item was made to have a downsized cheaper version of the travel book. That's not the version you take in a party on a treasure hunt.

It can be used as a disappear spell. I'm sure outlaws would love that.
On the other hand, there are 4 dedicated targets (teleporter) only. Therefore it's not impossible to follow.

I could think about an add in a way that persons close to the portal (5-7 tiles) in the moment one step in and the portal disappears get a hint.
  • Some sand fall on the ground where the portal were.
  • You feel an icy wind.
  • For a moment you hear the sound of waves.
  • (Idea for the Hempty missing :-()

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:20 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

Can we add different coordinates to be available for the portals? It is magic :roll: being able to go more than 4 places on such a large map is desirable. (More Sandbox plz!)

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:54 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

As mentioned before, being able to stalk and even requiring the potion not to be stalked... will this eventually add to the game's fun? Will some think this is enjoyable to use i.e. followed or buy potion not to be? Will new and current players have strife not char to char but player to player over this? Are we simply adding something to the game that can cause less fun and more upset?

Perhaps this needs more then just a couple of players to decide if this will help their game.. others to vote on this separate topic might be the best before something is set in game?

Placing it as a separate vote can only take a little more time yet see what others think about it.

Taking time to make sure separate issues will add not subtract from game fun and how it would add to encouraging new players to stay...would be a positive step.

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Post by Karrock » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

This idea of item what shows where other char is now is theoretically good, but yes after implementing this into the game will create situation of annoying chasing outlaws. This would be great if there was on a map a place where citizens of any town can't enter. Such a place doesn't need static tools, or even depots. Currently when an outlaw attack citizen, he just flee into a town, recover and returns to fight again. I seen such situations several times. This was so hopeless to observe. This also shows that we need a time counter after a player vs player fight before a char can enter town.

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Post by Flint Stoneside » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

Idea to add maybe. An item that you can give from one character to another. Maybe even as simple as an enchanted coin. This item would allow the other person to know the whereabouts of the other character. Anyone can use it. But to have the owner's "essence" charged into the coin so other people they give it to can find them they need to go to a mage who knows how to craft/enchant them for that purpose. Makes mages a little more useful and a nice way for friends to find each other IG. Or whoever you gave a "coin" to. I know this idea is a bit flawed, but hopefully the general idea is good and makes sense.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:34 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

Flint Stoneside wrote:Idea to add maybe. An item that you can give from one character to another. Maybe even as simple as an enchanted coin. This item would allow the other person to know the whereabouts of the other character. Anyone can use it. But to have the owner's "essence" charged into the coin so other people they give it to can find them they need to go to a mage who knows how to craft/enchant them for that purpose. Makes mages a little more useful and a nice way for friends to find each other IG. Or whoever you gave a "coin" to. I know this idea is a bit flawed, but hopefully the general idea is good and makes sense.
This is a very good idea. Allows friends to find each other, leaves the choice up to the char/player whether to be found by anyone or not, is a money sink and seems to be a positive adding fun for the game.

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Post by Banduk » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:01 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

Charlotte-ate-wilbur wrote:Can we add different coordinates to be available for the portals? It is magic :roll: being able to go more than 4 places on such a large map is desirable. (More Sandbox plz!)
See top of the thread:
Possible products and effects see link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

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Post by Banduk » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:28 pm

Re: Artifact Creation

Achae Eanstray wrote:
Flint Stoneside wrote:Idea to add maybe. An item that you can give from one character to another. Maybe even as simple as an enchanted coin. This item would allow the other person to know the whereabouts of the other character. Anyone can use it. But to have the owner's "essence" charged into the coin so other people they give it to can find them they need to go to a mage who knows how to craft/enchant them for that purpose. Makes mages a little more useful and a nice way for friends to find each other IG. Or whoever you gave a "coin" to. I know this idea is a bit flawed, but hopefully the general idea is good and makes sense.
This is a very good idea. Allows friends to find each other, leaves the choice up to the char/player whether to be found by anyone or not, is a money sink and seems to be a positive adding fun for the game.
I like that way. It's close to what we do with the vision feather.
But there is one flaw: Artifacts made by mages are per definition one time items. They have to disappear on use. But we could do a glass ball stalker in a way, the person to be found has to inscribe it's name to the item before. That's not too bad to handle since we can make the item stack-able so you can inscribe your name in 100 glass balls at once. One glass ball might hold 10 different target chars.

Artifacts with long term effects are reserved for priests. But the idea is a very good point we could use for priests too, once they become reality in 2030.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:38 am

Re: Artifact Creation

That will work very good Banduk.. leave the "finding" up to the char to give to friends you mean? I like that the character has a choice and if doesn't wish to be found, won't. :D

I played a game similar with a one time use and the char would be teleported to the friend. However, to be able to find the friend sounds good and worth paying some coins for.




Another subject. I tested the artifact maker regarding jewelry. I like the way it is made with the ritual and the requirement of minimum mage stats. Provided the items (6 I believe) aren't hard to find it will work very nice.. I am hoping crafting is not required to find but the use of the wand would be.

I made my own in the dev. If very hard to find I'd recommend reducing the number. The copper amethyst was tested (unable to make the gold one) after making and no MC was reduced using the jewelry the entire mana of my character and still showed 18/18. The MC was tested just once but that is a long time use to not affect the MC at all. Is this a bug/desirable/too large a variant?

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