Enable devotion to the Old Gods

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Q-wert
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Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Q-wert »

I moved this to an own topic, to not derail the "Book of my God"-discussion over there:
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 67#p708315

My original text:
Could someone please enlighten me why lizardmen are supposed to be unable to devote themselves to, or become priests of, Tanora?

The lore states (and has stated for over a decade) quite the opposite. There even are 'several' actively played lizard priests of Tanora about right now, supported by our gms.
And wasn't the destruction of Gobatih labelled as the 'Return of the Old Gods', with the Old Gods (exception being of Tanora, who already was around doing stuff) breaking their hands off policy towards mortals?

For those wanting to read up on the lizard lore: ->Link to official race description on the website. Binding by the game rules.<-

I see a divide between the game world, this being:
  • ingame envoirement - books, npcs and quests
  • game history - gm-supported priests and divine interventions from Tanora for over a rl-decade
  • ooc - the official lore
...and an arbitrary development concept for magic, which does not take into consideration the game it is supposed to be created for.
Right now characters can, system wise, become followers of the young Gods. This is due to the development plan laid out in the Ars Magica, which basically does go against the game world and lore we have.
There have been several proposals to change the respecitve parts, to allow inclusion lore-conform of elves, lizards and fire orcs. These apparently went without making a dent.

My proposal here and now is rather simple:
Allow characters to devote themselves to the Old Gods.
The reality of the game world we had and have does speak for it. And if some brave soul does get around to do the priest system, there are plenty of good proposals on how to include the Old Gods.
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Dantagon Marescot
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Dantagon Marescot »

Q-wert wrote:Could someone please enlighten me why lizardmen are supposed to be unable to devote themselves to, or become priests of, Tanora?
Because the function currently does not exist yet. Trust me, I have an idea, though it may be ran as "priest of the five" instead of priest of a specific elder god and it might work slightly differently than the younger gods do. Personally I think that since lizards and elves and even orcs are fervent worshipers of the elder gods, they should still have some support. But since the younger gods are more active in day to day life, they should be the easiest to find and devote yourself to. I want to get younger gods going first before looking into building a "priest of the five" path.

Til then, just keep rping it.

Edit:
On my current short term docket now that life is cooperating again:
Finish creating the .npc priest files for the in town altars
Re-examine the current items for devotion to bring them inline with lore and crafting update
Maybe I can look at a being able to devote to the five, but I don't want it to be as simple and bringing a few items.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Estralis Seborian »

I think this requires some elaboration. Below, find the original proposal of mine from the first issue of the magic concept:
3 Overview (tl;dr version)

Illarion will feature three exclusive magical classes. A character can only follow one magical path or none but not two or three. Switching classes will be possible but at total loss of all skills and abilities of the former class. Two magical classes draw their power from one group of gods, either the Five elder gods or the Eleven young gods. The third class draws its power from nature itself, the world like it was before the coming of the gods. (...)

The Way of the Five
Arcanians: The mysterious Arcanians follow the way of the Five and combine secret runes to magical spells of devastating power
Glyph Forgers: Using ancient lore, a glyph forger enchants pieces of jewellery that channels the power of the Five (...)

The Way of the Eleven
Templars: The champions of the Eleven lead their blessed comrades to battle or the next beer drinking festival
Sanctificators: Holy men of the gods bless powerful artifacts of divine protection

5.1.1 Typical effects

The spells of Arcanians are divided in five schools, each one being associated to one Elder god.
So the original conception was that there are two god related magic types: One for the Five, one for the Eleven. So a fire orc who follows Brágon would throw fireballs while a Zelphia Champion would use the power of Tanora to repell enemies of the temple with water magic. A follower of Zhambra would not have access to such powers and rely on another type of more supportive, less direct magic. By majority decision, I had to abandon this conception and the concept now has a more generic "mage/priest" separation. The connection between arcane magic and follower of the elder gods is only implicit. Still, I imagine a follower of Brágon to follow the arcane ways and I think by proper roleplaying, there is no mechanical gap in the game that contradicts the lore. It is more a matter of a marketing fail that we have two sets of gods but only one is properly addressed by priests.

What I do not really like is just to stuff the five elder gods together with the eleven younger gods into one big pool of gods without any real separation between them. The lore tells us a lot about the elder gods being quite different than the younger gods who received their powers from the former. So two different systems seem to be very appropriate to me. So I strongly support any work going towards giving the five elder gods a proper representation in the game, mechanically, without just adding them as gods 12 thru 16 to the younger gods' scripts.
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GolfLima
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by GolfLima »

Mein Charakter ist immer den Fünf gefolgt, selbst wenn dies ja nach dem "Umzug" nicht mehr wirklich vorgesehen war und nur noch rp-mäßig möglich war.
Wäre aber nett, wenn man den alten Göttern wieder folgen könnte, gibt ja genug Gründe dafür (Elben, Echsen, ...)
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Lia
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Lia »

GolfLima wrote: Wäre aber nett, wenn man den alten Göttern wieder folgen könnte, gibt ja genug Gründe dafür (Elben, Echsen, ...)
Sehe ich ebenso, Und wenn man sich mal ic umschaut, wage ich zu behaupten das die meisten Charaktere einem der fünf alten Götter folgen.
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Charlotte-ate-wilbur
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur »

Magic by itself is a neutral concept, there should essentially be no set alignment for it, its not good or evil its just a tool that good, bad or neutral people use.

Making magic like a faith to the elder gods who are all good or neutral doesn't really fit the complete sandbox picture. High fantasy is full of dark antagonists that use magic. Perhaps arcane power is the source of the elder gods power, which imo is a better explaination.
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Dantagon Marescot
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Dantagon Marescot »

Lore wise the Elder Gods created mana. At the very least if this is not the formal definition, it is the handed down in game explanation for the existence of mana. We can go into details about how different races believe differently or perhaps were introduced to magic by their specific gods, but that is not the point.

The Elder Gods are responsible for the existence of magic in our world. This does not mean, and should not mean, that all mages must follow the elder gods. Infact most of them follow Elara, or for some strange reason Nargun (I guess magic is random... Mages to tend to be anyway). Mages ig tend to acknowledge who created it, but don't follow the Five as a faith. So I think it would be wrong to turn arcane magic into the divine magic of the Five, while subsequently having the divine magic of the Younger.

Arcane magic should be arcane magic, originally gifted to the world by the Five, but is entirely evolved independently by mortals. Divine magic should be faith in the gods and influenced directly by them. And yes, there should be an option to devote ones self to the elder gods, but I believe it should be functionally different from the divine magic of the younger gods.
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Charlotte-ate-wilbur
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur »

I'm in line with Dantagons above post. Though I want to point what Estralis calls 'The way of the five' implies that it is the path of the elder gods, to follow the path laid out by a God would imply you are following them ;P
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Kugar
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Kugar »

Lore wise the Elder Gods created mana
The elder gods created the entire world as our characters knows it - it is no mistake that:

Ushara - Goddess of Earth
Brágon - God of Fire
Eldan - God of Spirit
Tanora - Goddess of Water
Findari - Goddess of Air

The younger gods are followers of these gods who proved themselves as leaders so were elevated to god like status , in order to handle other 'tedious' matters of morality and reality.

The elder gods are the very elements themselves that build up the world in which we build our characters in. Characters have the choice to reject the very elements of the world they are created in, but that does not mean they do not exist. The younger gods are an entirely a different matter - they are results of the elder gods. Products of morality and leaders of mortal behavior.

Getting the favor of elder gods won't be easy.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Estralis Seborian »

GolfLima wrote:Mein Charakter ist immer den Fünf gefolgt, selbst wenn dies ja nach dem "Umzug" nicht mehr wirklich vorgesehen war und nur noch rp-mäßig möglich war.
Wäre aber nett, wenn man den alten Göttern wieder folgen könnte, gibt ja genug Gründe dafür (Elben, Echsen, ...)
Ich bin ein wenig verwirrt; was genau war vor dem "Umzug" möglich, was nun nicht mehr möglich ist? Es steht jedem Charakter frei, Anhänger der Fünf zu sein. Jeder kann einen Priester der Fünf spielen. Dem Spiel wurde lediglich hinzugefügt, dass man sich am Altar zu einem Anhänger der Jungen Götter erklären kann. Wie Dantagon und Kugar geschrieben haben, sind die Fünf nunmal etwas anderes als die Jungen Götter. Dies sollte sich auch in der Spielmechanik widerspiegeln. Auf das "wie genau" bin ich gespannt, ich hoffe, es unterscheidet sich so deutlich, dass Brágon und Co. nicht einfach nur Gott 12-16 sind.

Die Fünf sind unbestritten die Erschaffer der Welt, inklusive Mana, Magie, Ozeanen, Inseln und Schmetterlingen. Eine Verbindung zwischen Magie und den Fünf besteht also "per Definition", jedoch ist hier die Frage, wie direkt diese Verbindung zu sehen ist. Hier scheint die Mehrheitsmeinung zu sein, dass die Fünf den Charakteren die Werkzeuge erschaffen haben, nicht jedoch das Wissen, wie man diese benutzt.
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Dantagon Marescot
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Dantagon Marescot »

Kugar wrote:Getting the favor of elder gods won't be easy.
Bingo! The elder gods, with the exception of Tanora are supposed to be very hands off. They created the world and left it in the hands of the younger. The younger handle the day to day life. Therefore, actions in your day to day life should affect how the younger feel about you. The elder gods should be a little bit more difficult to impress and they should be a bit more elusive to find.

The divine magic of the elder gods should not be inline with the younger. It should be unique in some way. How? I am not sure. Perhaps it is some combination of a few younger god specialties, but not as strong. Ex: Malachin has a +2 for x bonus, Zhambra has +2 for y bonus, and Moshran has +2 for z bonus. Bragon gives a +1 for bonuses x, y, and z. Another thought is as Estralis mentioned, make it some elemental type bonus or magic. But it shouldn't just be a copycat of the younger, though it may make use of the same base system.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Estralis Seborian »

I am not sure we even need divine magic of the Elder Gods. They are the Creators, they made everything around the characters. While the Eleven should have a direct impact on the day to day life, I am not convinced we need such a "+1 bonus" thing for those who made the world. I think what is requested here is an option to formalise that someone is a priest/follower. I'd have absolutely no problem with a simple devotion tag for non-templar/sanctificators that is shown upon lookAt and restricts the character from becoming a follower of one of the Eleven. But I fear the players want mechanical advantages if priests of the Eleven grant such advantages.
Und wenn man sich mal ic umschaut, wage ich zu behaupten das die meisten Charaktere einem der fünf alten Götter folgen.
I think this is a classic Mary Sue thing. The lore describes that followers of the Elder gods are very rare and BAM this results in everyone and his dog being O so special and a follower of the Elder gods.
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Djironnyma
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Djironnyma »

Estralis Seborian wrote:I think this is a classic Mary Sue thing. The lore describes that followers of the Elder gods are very rare and BAM this results in everyone and his dog being O so special and a follower of the Elder gods.
I neigther believe that it helps to insult players which chosed to play chars which followe the elder gods nor is your lore interpretation entire correct. Yes at some points it is descripted that followers of the five are rare, on the other hand its discripted that lizards follow Tanora, that orcs follow also Brágon (especially flame orcs) and that elves follow the Five as whole - so we have 2,5 races which follow the elder gods per lore! Furthermore there are descriptions of feast for the elder gods. Last but not least we (the staff/game/gms) made many quest, especially one very big, in which we descripted devine actions of the five.

Dont get me wrong, i m not arguning about if followers of elder gods should have a system wise bonus or not. I for myself will play my char still as a follower of an elder god if there is no boni, I made this decission RP wise not for PG - but i dont want to be insulted for this decission.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Estralis Seborian »

I didn't mean to insult anyone playing a follower of the Elder Gods by the term Mary Sue. Let me rephrase:

If the majority of characters follow the Elder gods, then most likely a "special snow flake" effect contributes to that.

In other words, if something is described as "special" in the lore, it might turn out "not so special anymore" as players tend to give their characters "special" traits. But something tells me that the majority of characters actually is member of the Church of Filthy Lucre ;-).
Kiashi
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Kiashi »

Well, i think nothing is Spezial if you Play a Lizzard Templer or Priest.
Most Lizzard are following Tanora, there a the snowflakes who don't follow it. I think but hey is totaly ok if someone decidet to follow a new good.

But in my eyes. lizzard following Tanora since they are been created by her, as a priest Player there is no other good than Tanora in my eyes. And how i read it, tanora is the most aktive of the five, she still wanders around, looking for something. Like the discription says. But i also don't think that the five don't listen, i think they will decide realy spezific if they wan't to akt or not. I don't know how to write it down, so i hope ist okey this way.
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by BjarsTale »

as a priest Player there is no other good than Tanora
Cant agree, if one Lizard starts to believe in another god too and chose to serve this God as Priest, well what would speak against? (Like one we have in Cadomyr, he follows Cherga)

An Lizard Adron Priest would be funny.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Maybe I am stating the obvious but: No matter what, there ARE fifteen other gods than Tanora. They exist as actual being and influence the world. Denying that as a character is possible but just not true. So the concept of "faith" differs from RL a bit. A character may decide to worship only one god. Or three Elder Gods and two Younger Gods. Or none at all. Or all of them. I think there is nothing right or wrong about ingame religion.

The lore describes that all lizards are descendants of Tanora. For me, this is also a fact. But this does not mean all lizards must be monotheist.
Kiashi
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Kiashi »

BjarsTale wrote:
as a priest Player there is no other good than Tanora
Cant agree, if one Lizard starts to believe in another god too and chose to serve this God as Priest, well what would speak against? (Like one we have in Cadomyr, he follows Cherga)

An Lizard Adron Priest would be funny.
Well this are the exeptions, but a lizzard whats believes in Tanora, grown up in the temple civilisation, ther eis nothing else in my eyes.
Sure they say, okey there a other gods to, the know there are, but for the most Lizzardmen is her Godmother Tanora the one they follow :3
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Karrock
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Karrock »

The fundament of this new priest magic system is at all bad. Except what Qwert wrote I figure out that those priests who are the most popular will have most power. This will create 10 (except moshran what will not be playable at all) clones of the same faith with different effects.
Single priest who want to get power will have to speak everything what people want to hear. Completely different compared to any real relligion. This system will be boring for priests and irritating. The most engine power priests will stand out absolutely lack of own opinions. Except powergamers I doubt anyone would like to play priest.
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Dantagon Marescot
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Dantagon Marescot »

Karrock wrote:The fundament of this new priest magic system is at all bad. Except what Qwert wrote I figure out that those priests who are the most popular will have most power. This will create 10 (except moshran what will not be playable at all) clones of the same faith with different effects.
Single priest who want to get power will have to speak everything what people want to hear. Completely different compared to any real relligion. This system will be boring for priests and irritating. The most engine power priests will stand out absolutely lack of own opinions. Except powergamers I doubt anyone would like to play priest.
Um... That's not how this is supposed to work... There shouldn't be a single priest who holds all the power, but instead should give some flavor to characters who are priests.

I'm slowly working on the outline for devotion and faith system (not yet to divine magic). I am taking into consideration many, many things and have researched into how other games have done it as well as various world pantheons.
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Vern Kron
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Re: Enable devotion to the Old Gods

Post by Vern Kron »

So I hear what you are saying, but I want to make sure I understand.

Basically, your concern is that priests will essentially be acting the same way, under the name of different gods, in order to attract ‘followers’.
If I recall: the younger gods each provide some sort of different ‘blessings’. Irmorom would be more of a trades guy, oldra more with healing and growing. Already there is some difference there, simply by merit of what priests and gods do.

On the argument that priests will only present similar things: I am pretty sure that followers are an instance by instance situation. If a priest does a blessing, then only those actually present would be involved. It doesn’t seem to be that the whole of the beaters of fire follow one priest, and that priest is now immensely powerful. A ‘longtime’ follower is not of real benefit other than that you can trust that they will support you.
Moreover, you seem to be heavily focused on this idea that every priest will operate in the sense of most traditional western faiths.

From what I can tell, priests are more like totems in WoW. Priest activates an ability and everyone nearby who is linked up with the priest at that moment gets some benefit (with possible adjusting for a characters relationship with that particular god). Then characters need to remain near that priest to continue receiving that benefit.
It is not ‘I hold a service for an hour talking about how Sirani wants to hug us, and for the next week every person who was in attendance or follows me or is in my guild gets 100% health regen increase’. Remember, while this is a role playing game, it is still that, a game.
If you are expecting or wanting someone to develop a fully functional systematic theology, and deliver frequent and lengthy sermons, it is no longer a game. That is an actual real life job, that takes many hours a week to manage.
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