Glyph Forgers

Here you can make and discuss suggestions to improve the game. / Hier kannst du Vorschläge einreichen und diskutieren um das Spiel zu verbessern.

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Post by Djironnyma » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:02 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Banduk wrote:I start with 10 points per second.
sounds reasonable
Vern Kron wrote:All food points, IMO, since hunger is supposed to be like stamina, right?
no Stanina is a self regnerating statt in the most systems. foodpoints regenrate in illarion just by eating food, a progess needing all foodpoints would kill a char afaik

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Post by Jupiter » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:07 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Djironnyma wrote:e]
no Stanina is a self regnerating statt in the most systems. foodpoints regenrate in illarion just by eating food, a progess needing all foodpoints would kill a char afaik
Not instantly. He would start to loose hitpoint and starve to death until he eats something again.

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Post by Banduk » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

So hier ist der nächste Schritt:
Next step:
https://youtu.be/Rrs3suBAhbY

Wir können jetzt 'überall' Glyphen Ritualplätze errichten.
We can erect almost everywhere glyph ritual places.

Das Zeug muss demnächst mal auf den Dev Server, da es sich inzwischen wie eine Krake in sehr viele Funktionen einklinkt. Wir bekommen unschöne Merge Aktionen, wenn sich meine Arbeit mit anderen überlagert! Damit ich das Ganze in absehbarer Zeit auch mal committen kann werde ich jetzt erst mal eine Wirkung der Glyphen für alle Juwelen implementieren. Dann ist das Gesamtsystem nutzbar.
Diversifikationen kann ich dann immer noch reinbringen.
Deshalb werde ich auf absehbare Zeit auch nicht spielen!
google translate wrote: The stuff has to be on the dev server soon, because it is now like an octopus in many functions. We get unsightly merge actions when my work overlays with others! So that I can commit the whole thing in the foreseeable future, I will now first implement an individual effect of the glyphs for all jewels. Then the whole system is usable.
I can still bring in diversifications.
So I will not play in the next future!

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Post by Banduk » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:36 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Banduk wrote:I start with 10 points per second.

Ich beginne mit 10 Punkten pro Sekunde.
Update: doch 40 Punkte, wir haben nämlich 60.000 foodpoints :-). Damit Illarion keine Hungerspiele werden.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:25 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Concerning items: I don't believe we are unable to add ANY items to the game, just that we are not able to add a gross amount of items to the game. So a new tool or tool bench might be fine, but a few graphic for every shard might not be.

The how really comes down to how do we want it viewed. If it is an arcane craft, then it makes sense at a workbench. Perhaps something with an open book and candles. If it is to be more like an arcane ritual, then a magic circle like your ritual square seems fitting. Would be cool if there were a neat graphic of an arcane magic circle that appears under your feet when doing so. Perhaps certain items are needed to open the ritual? Perhaps candles? Something to give husbandry a little more worth in the world. Tool wise I like the wand idea.

I can't tell from the video what item you are using for the shards. I personally would find stone appropriate, but could see how the current gems would make it confusing since they are both regular gems and magical gems. I would think the game could handle a single graphical item called "Glyph Shard" if we can then use it for each glyph.

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Post by Vern Kron » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:28 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Jupiter wrote:
Djironnyma wrote:e]
no Stanina is a self regnerating statt in the most systems. foodpoints regenrate in illarion just by eating food, a progess needing all foodpoints would kill a char afaik
Not instantly. He would start to loose hitpoint and starve to death until he eats something again.
And even then, it's a very slow process. Basically I see this task as supposed to be something quite consuming and difficult to do.

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Post by Banduk » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Dantagon Marescot wrote:Concerning items: I don't believe we are unable to add ANY items to the game, just that we are not able to add a gross amount of items to the game. So a new tool or tool bench might be fine, but a few graphic for every shard might not be.

The how really comes down to how do we want it viewed. If it is an arcane craft, then it makes sense at a workbench. Perhaps something with an open book and candles. If it is to be more like an arcane ritual, then a magic circle like your ritual square seems fitting. Would be cool if there were a neat graphic of an arcane magic circle that appears under your feet when doing so. Perhaps certain items are needed to open the ritual? Perhaps candles? Something to give husbandry a little more worth in the world. Tool wise I like the wand idea.

I can't tell from the video what item you are using for the shards. I personally would find stone appropriate, but could see how the current gems would make it confusing since they are both regular gems and magical gems. I would think the game could handle a single graphical item called "Glyph Shard" if we can then use it for each glyph.
Currently I use moelkkies, these graphics have to be replaced.

There are already 5 strange shard graphics we can use or better replace the moelkkie graphics by something like that: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 11#p708111
The how to for this task is the only blocking question in the whole project.

The pentagram appearing during the ritual is a nice idea. The point is: Are we able to make new gfx graphics (it would be a gfx) and how? Implementing that is just 2 clicks. If we would be able to add some more gfx I see an urgent need of lesser bombastic magical effects and steam. I have anywhere a Mantis for that.

Even more critical is the glyph forge. Here we need urgently a replacement for any currently not used graphics (e.g the moelkkie used at the moment). My favorite would be a very low stone table on 3 legs with an pentagram of wood worked elevate into the surface. Since it is erected and rots within some hours it should not contain a book. A candle might be an idea. But do we have even a graphican at the moment who could do such an item?

Basically I'm finished with the whole project. The basic glyph effects are almost done in a first version. I expect I'm ready before end of Mas.
Once it is in test I have a number of improvements. So e.g. I'd like to add some necessary items (candle, stone, wood) to the forge erection.

Condensed to 2 questions:
1. Who know how to replace a graphics and assign it to an item?
2. Who can make a glyph ritual place graphic?

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:24 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Drakon is currently our main graphical items person and has been working on stuff. I recommend talking to him about the graphics for it. Though if anyone has ideas or experience and wishes to contribute I am sure it would be appreciated.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:27 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

You may also find Grim doing some nice graphics: http://illarion.org/community/forums/me ... le&u=14045

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:08 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Drakon also made some very neat glyph graphics (no shards).

Concerning food points, I propose zero. Rationale: Glyph forging consumes high amounts of mana. Mana regeneration takes food points. So if glyph forging takes food points directly, it is a double punishment and basically redundant. I know alchemy takes a fixed amount of food points but I'd like to see it taking mana instead as well.

In any case, things such as mana and food consumption if any are good examples for things that should be handled by base functions across all future three magic schools and six magic types. Or we end up with six times the work and six different approaches to the same thing without any benefit for the players.
Banduk wrote:The longest ritual takes 525 s
Please reconsider about this. That's almost nine minutes! Such an action will trigger the AFK detection and I can imagine many players to leave their screen and e.g. walk the dog, do the laundry or watch half an episode of Big Bang Theory in that time. For crafting, the most difficult super armour of darkness takes three minutes to complete - a duration that can be tolerated as an extreme value. I am advocating long action durations rather than jackhammer clicking but we should not neglect that there is a player in front of the screen who wants to see some progress. If you need long action durations because of e.g. skillgain, you can make glyph forging a two step process: First join the shards to a glyph and then socket the glyph to a ring/amulet. Both actions could take a while but please not nine minutes.

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Post by Banduk » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:21 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Estralis Seborian wrote:
Banduk wrote:The longest ritual takes 525 s
Please reconsider about this. That's almost nine minutes! Such an action will trigger the AFK detection and I can imagine many players to leave their screen and e.g. walk the dog, do the laundry or watch half an episode of Big Bang Theory in that time. For crafting, the most difficult super armour of darkness takes three minutes to complete - a duration that can be tolerated as an extreme value. I am advocating long action durations rather than jackhammer clicking but we should not neglect that there is a player in front of the screen who wants to see some progress. If you need long action durations because of e.g. skillgain, you can make glyph forging a two step process: First join the shards to a glyph and then socket the glyph to a ring/amulet. Both actions could take a while but please not nine minutes.
If we follow this approach : http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 14#p708114 the average ritual time is about 278s. I was going to start with a 90 s ritual for a 0 skill mage. Try to calculate the other end.

For the moment I implemented a clear rule break using a time reduction by 3.33. For me it is acceptable since each ritual (even the one with skill 0) is a one time action compared to the production of 40 medium level bottles e.g.. It takes the full mana bar and requires a collection of 7 rare ingredients. So a ritual with nominal 175 s (25%skill, glyph forge erection) takes 52 s but is worth 175s for skill gain. The skill gain for the 100% skill ritual is worth 525s but takes 157 s. Either we break the rule or we let it in.

I have to recalculate the times once I have a expected amount of rituals performed on one glyph ritual place in average. At the moment I tend to use 1 ritual per glyph ritual place. Since the erection of the ritual place do not need shards mages will travel around and place such locations as training. A lot will never been used. I haven't calculate the reduction but with a 1:1 a reduction to 75% of the times seems possible.
google translate wrote: Wenn wir diesem Ansatz folgen: [url]http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 14#p708114[/ url] die durchschnittliche Ritualzeit beträgt etwa 278s. Ich wollte mit einem 90s-Ritual für einen Magier mit 0 Skill beginnen. Das andere Ende ist pure Arithmetik.

Im Moment habe ich eine klare Regelverletzung mit einer Zeitreduzierung um 3,33 implementiert. Für mich ist es akzeptabel, da jedes Ritual (sogar das mit der Fähigkeit 0) eine einmalige Aktion im Vergleich zur Produktion von 40 mittelgroßen Flaschen ist, z. B.. Es benötigt alle Mana und erfordert eine Sammlung von 7 seltenen Zutaten. Ein Ritual mit nominal 175 s (25% Fertigkeit, Glyph-Schmiede-Aufbau) dauert 52 s, ist aber 175 s bei der Skillberechnung wert. Der Skillgewinn für das 100% Skillritual ist 525s wert, dauert aber 157s. EBleiben wir regelkonform?

Ich muss die Zeiten neu berechnen, wenn ich eine erwartete Menge an Ritualen im Durchschnitt an einem Glyphen-Ritual-Platz habe. Im Moment verwende ich 1 Ritual pro Glyph-Ritual. Da die Errichtung des Ritualplatzes keine Scherben erfordert, werden die Magier herumlaufen und solche Orte als Ausbildung platzieren. Viel wird nie benutzt. Ich habe die Reduktion nicht berechnet, aber mit einem 1: 1 scheint eine Reduktion auf 75% der Zeit möglich.

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Post by Banduk » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:23 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Estralis Seborian wrote:If you need long action durations because of e.g. skillgain, you can make glyph forging a two step process: First join the shards to a glyph and then socket the glyph to a ring/amulet.
I reject the 2 step procedure since I'd need 14 more items and graphics in an environment where we are limited especially in that.
google translate wrote:Ich lehne das 2-Schritt-Verfahren ab, da ich 14 weitere Elemente und Grafiken in einer Umgebung benötigen würde, in der wir besonders beschränkt sind.

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Post by Banduk » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:10 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Bezüglich FoodPoints:
Die Test haben gezeigt, dass der Nahrugsverbrauch zwar da ist, aber kaum ins Gewicht fällt. Es bedeutet eigentlich nur, dass man nicht mit Magenknurren das Ritual beginnen sollte.
google translate wrote: Regarding FoodPoints:
The tests have shown that the consumption of food is there, but hardly any. It really means only that one should not start the ritual with stomach snares.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:55 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

So a ritual with nominal 175 s (25%skill, glyph forge erection) takes 52 s but is worth 175s for skill gain.
Please refrain from such hacks at all cost. If you send more time to the learn script than the action takes, MC will re-compensate that in the long run. So learning other things will suffer from this. You fool the system into believing that the player uses a high fraction of his time for skilling and thereby, it tunes the learning success of each action down. So you do not achieve more learning per action by this hack but less in an overall way! A more simple explanation: If you'd do nothing else but glyph forging, your hack would result in exactly zero additional skill gain as MC is a control circuit.

The only situation where we use such a scaling is learning fighting skills. As you can attack and defend at the same time, we reduce (not increase) the time that is sent to the learning script. This way, a player neither gets rewarded nor punished in a normal fighting situation. The big exception of fighting is that the actions are not exclusive; while crafting, you can learn nothing else but crafting.

Generally, I think we should not implement too many workarounds or things that are adjusted to a situation that is not desirable. Such things will result in continuous rework and rebalancing without any actual gain. I recommend we first clarify the exact client limits concerning items and what items we'd need for glyph forging before we yield to the status quo. Whether we add 49 or 63 items might not make too much of a difference; both might be too many for now. Let us discuss this topic with Nitram and what can be done before jumping to conclusions. Note that we e.g. also have 128 rune graphics in the client for GUI purposes. If we have a fixed limit of items/graphics, we should see what we do not need before not adding what we need and implementing hacks that are doing no good.

PS: I am not a friend of a two step approach, either. To first combine the shards and then socket them in a second step feels a bit artificial to me and I'd prefer a smooth one step process. But I see the need for long action durations if shards shall be comparable rare. Mind that pure elements are also rare and one is worth up to three minutes of action time.

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Post by Banduk » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:38 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

I think the question for the glyph magic is, how we can reduce the ritual time without making shards a common item.

At first I put to test the decision to split the almost rare glyph magic system into 2 different skills. If ring and amulet creation would be one skill, the ritual time immediately will be condensed to the half and we’d have acceptable times. The remaining artifact skill we could use for artifact creation such as portal books Evie is working on and in urgent need for a lead skill.

Further we could add some activities that do not result in a glyphed item. One we have already: The erection of the glyph ritual place.
Why not have some more activities skill relevant?
  • Search the next ritual place, a skill 0 action for beginner. Just a few seconds (2 s) but it would be sufficient to gain the first swirli.
  • Clean the ritual place and prepare the ritual. This is even part of the magic education. First prepare, than spell. That could be e.g.15s and consume 10% Mana, the glyphing consumes 85. So we split the ritual in 2 steps where the first step can be done independently. The ritual itself can be done on prepared ritual places only. Graphically we could light a candle with low burning time and place it immoveable on the ritual place. The ritual can start if prepared only. It will have a RP setting too since that part can be done by skill 0 and the master mage will send his student to do that part.
  • Refurbish an existing ritual place. The ritual place disappears after 5 hours. In between a low skilled mage could refurbish and extend the life time.
Take into consideration, at the end a mage has to spend about 14:25 hours, no matter what actions he/she do. As more actions we can take away from the rare glyphing itself as shorter it can become.

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Post by Banduk » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:05 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

I must sorry, I'm working on the glyph magic for 2 weeks now and it isn't finished.
But the very first time glyph magic is fully functional from shard creation to the first glyph effects.

There is still a lot to do and even more ideas, but the system is working now on my local server.
Since I'll not be able to work on Illarion the next week it will take another 2 weeks to implement the remaining effects and the ritual time reductions.

Bereits implementiert und getested:
  • Finde Splitter bei jeder Rohstoffsuche
  • Finde Splitter bei kleineren Schätzen
  • Finde Splitter im Monster Loot
  • Finde Splitter an 40 Hotspots (1/16h an jedem Spot eins, 1/tag an einem Spot ein Regen)
  • GM Tools - Dietrich=>global events=>Shard shower
  • GM Tools - Kelle erzeugt einzelne Shards nach Vorgabe oder Zufall
  • GM Tools - Glyph bezogene Skills
  • lookAt zeigt ungefähre Anzahl der verbleibenden Ladungen
  • Glyph Ritualplatz zeigt welche Splitter existieren und welche Juwelen aufgewertet werden können
  • Ein Magier kann ein Schmuckstück mit einer Glyphe versehen
  • Ein Magier kann einen Glyphen Ritualplatz errichten wenn er einen der beiden Skills >= 25 hat
  • Die Errichtung eines Glyphen Ritualplatz ist auch ein Ritual und verbessert die Skills (zufällig einen der Beiden)
  • Ritualplätze können nur in einer Entfernung von mindestens 40 Tiles aufgestellt werden
  • Ritualplätze stellen gewisse Bedingungen an die Umgebung (freie Sichtaxe, Zugang, Boden)
  • Magier können Ritualplätze suchen
  • Ritualplätze verschwinden nach 5h
  • Die letzten 6 Minuten bevor ein Ritualplatz zerfällt, kann dieser nicht mehr genutzt werden
  • Es wird einen festen Ritualplatz in der Nähe der Hempty geben
  • Die Errichtung des Ritualplatzes ist schneller, wenn der Zauberstab mit magischen Edelsteinen aufgewertet ist
  • Glyphen werden verwendet mit spezifischer Wahrscheinlichkeit
  • In Abhängigkeit vom Ringmaterial (Kupfer, Silber, Gold) wird ein Parameter bereitgestellt
  • Glyphen in Juwelen, die noch keine spezifische Wirkung haben, wirken wie der Amethyst Ring. Das heißt alle Juwelen haben einen Effekt.
  • Juwelen zerbrechen mit einer Wahrscheinlichkeit (0,3) wenn die letzte Ladung aufgebraucht sind.
  • Juwelen mit spezieller Beschreibung oder Namen verlieren Qualität von 1-3 Stufen wenn die Glyphen aufgebraucht sind. Sie können nicht zerbrechen.
  • Amethyst Ring nimmt dem Gegner Movepoints (Waffe und Zauerstab)
  • Amethyst Ring beschleunigt Herstellung
  • Amethyst Amulet nimmet dem Gegner Movepoints und gibt dem Angreifer einen Teil davon (Waffe und Zauerstab)
  • Amethyst Amulet beschleunigt Spielerreperatur
Already implemented and tested:
  • Find shards on each gathering
  • Find shards on lower treasures
  • Find shards in monster loot
  • Find shards at 40 spots (1/16h at each spot a single, 1/day at one spot a shower)
  • GM tools - lockpick=>global events=>Shard shower
  • GM tools - ceiling trowel creates single shards according to definition or randomly
  • GM tools - glyph related skills
  • lookAt shows approximate remaining charges
  • Glyph ritual place shows which shards exist and which jewels can be glyphed
  • Mage can glyph a jewel at the ritual place
  • Mage can erect a glyph ritual place if [s]he has a skill of >25% in one of the skills
  • Mage learns something in one of both skills (random selected) during the ritual of the erection of the ritual place
  • The distance in between 2 ritual places is at least 40 tiles
  • Ritual places have some conditions (free sight axis, access, ground)
  • Mages can search ritual places
  • Ritual places disappear after 5 hours
  • A ritual place cannot be used during the last 6 min of it's existence
  • There is one fix ritual place near the Hempty planned
  • The erection of a ritual place is faster if the wand is gemmed.
  • Glyphs are used with specific probabilities
  • Glyph usage provides specific parameter, depending on the material of the ring (copper, silver, gold)
  • Glyphs in jewels without specific effects, acts like an amethyst ring. So all jewels have any effect.
  • Jewels break with a certain probability if the last charge was used (0.3)
  • Jewels with special description or name never break but lose 1-3 quality steps if the last charge was used.
  • Amethyst ring reduces move points of the enemy (weapon and wand)
  • Amethyst ring increases production speed
  • Amethyst amulet reduces move points of the enemy and increase move points of the attacker (weapon and wand)
  • Amethyst amulet increases player repair speed

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Post by Banduk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:45 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

How we should inform the player about the glyph effects?

1. A book available in all realms.
2. A NPC quest with a few hints and the book as final reward.
3. The item description in the look at has a brief description of the effect.

Be aware, we are talking about 20+ effects since most of the jewels contain multiple effects depending on their application. A quest showing all effects is an illusion. Knowing all effects requires ooc knowledge.

How detailed should be the description?
Including numbers like:
  Code:
Copper topaz amulet redirect about half of the attack against the attacker if the defender wear the amulet. In case of a gold amulet it become twice the power of the attack. The effect happens in 1 of 5 attacks.
Such a description might be helpful for everybody maxing his/her fight / craft / magic but it sounds odd to me.
But I'd like more a description like the following:
Wearing a glyphed topaz amulet protects the bearer since the attacker got blended and attacks itself. Someone who got blended by a golden topaz amulet might even hurt himself more than he was able to hurt the bearer of the amulet without wearing it.
This is a nightmare for me due to the grammar but I think I should go that way.

My favorite is 1..

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Post by Jupiter » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:36 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

I always prefer the more immersive way of describing things. Concret numers are prone to breaker immersion.

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Post by Vern Kron » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:54 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

My suggestion would be to make the information fairly clear IG, but do it in a way that would make sense.

For example, you can make a glossary in the beginning that says:

Unstable - Has a low durability/usage/charge

Temperamental - Won't activate more than half the time.

Then use those terms in reference to the glyphs. It will add a level of simple language to deal with the glyphs, while also making sure people know exactly what they are getting. Rather than thinking a topaz amulet will make them do things like blend into the environment, or always turn attacks against the enemy.

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Post by Banduk » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:41 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Since I wasn't home this week only a few functions were added in the 3rd week.
There are 12 effects missing where I have no idea for 4 yet.
Split and recalculate forging open.

Help need for:
  • Creation of item with graphic
  • Create a usually movable item dynamically on map in a way it cannot be stolen
Done
  • GM tools - add glyph charges to an item
  • Sappire ring increases the probability that a player repair improves the quality of an item
  • Sappire amulet prevents with a ceratin probability a quality loss during NPC repair
  • Topaz Ring cause higher damage (weapon and wand)
  • Topaz Ring improves the quality of an item during production.
  • Topaz Amulet protects the wearer and repell the damage to the attacker. (weapon and wand)
  • Topaz Amulet improves the quality of an item during production but cause an heal point loss.
  • Emerald Amulet protects the wearer and paralyze an attacker a few moments. (weapon and wand)
  • Emerald Amulet prevents you from moster during gathering
  • Emerald Ring improves the durability of a tool while using in the workshop
  • Emerald Ring take the attacked movepoints over time.
  • GM Tools - Lade ein Item mit Glyphen auf
  • Saphir Ring erhöht die Wahrscheinlichkeit, dass eine Reperatur durch Spieler die Qualität verbessert
  • Saphir Amulet verringert die Wahrscheinlichkeit, dass es bei der NPC Reperatur zu einem Qualitätsverlust kommt.
  • Topas Ring erhöht den angerichteten Schaden (Waffe und Zauberstab)
  • Topas Ring verbessert die Qualität eines Werkstücks bei der Herstellung.
  • Topas Amulet schützt den Träger und leitet den Schaden zurück um Angreifer
  • Topas Amulet verbessert die Qualität eines Werkstücks bei der Herstellung unter Einsatz von Lebenspunkten.
  • Smaragd Amulet schützt den Träger und lähmt den Angreifer einen Moment
  • Smaragd Amulet verhindert das Auftreten von Monstern beim Ressourcen sammeln
  • Smaragd Ring verbessert die Haltbarkeit eines Werkzeugs bei der Nutzung in der Werkstatt
  • Smaragd Ringe verzögern den angegriffenen Gegner über einen Zeitraum

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Post by Banduk » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:09 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Mana leakage

I think we should prevent player hoard glyphed items and have in one year suddenly numerous rings and amulets ready for an action. The usage of the glyphed items should happen 'short' after they were produced.
To reward an in time consumption of the glyphed item I'll implement a mana leakage if there are no concerns. As more weeks went by since the forging as higher the amount of additional charges one may need for an action.
I played a little bit with numbers and equations and found the following calculation rule:
  • First 2 weeks no leakage, from the 3rd week on the weeks count (RL).
    E.g. in the 6th week we calculate with count=4.
  • Probability of additional charges needed is (count*0.03)^3.
    In our example: 0,17%
  • The number of additional charges is 1+int(count*0,15)
  • There is always one effect able to use no matter how old the glyphed item is.
Due to the exponential function there is a very moderate effect in the first time but as longer one hoard the item as more mana leaks and as less powerful the glyph is. See here the effective number of charges over one RL year:
https://imgur.com/go9EScF
This influences the glyphed rings and amulets only, the shards can be stored forever.

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Post by Vern Kron » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:24 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Banduk wrote:Mana leakage

I think we should prevent player hoard glyphed items and have in one year suddenly numerous rings and amulets ready for an action. The usage of the glyphed items should happen 'short' after they were produced.
To reward an in time consumption of the glyphed item I'll implement a mana leakage if there are no concerns. As more weeks went by since the forging as higher the amount of additional charges one may need for an action.
I played a little bit with numbers and equations and found the following calculation rule:
  • First 2 weeks no leakage, from the 3rd week on the weeks count (RL).
    E.g. in the 6th week we calculate with count=4.
  • Probability of additional charges needed is (count*0.03)^3.
    In our example: 0,17%
  • The number of additional charges is 1+int(count*0,15)
  • There is always one effect able to use no matter how old the glyphed item is.
Due to the exponential function there is a very moderate effect in the first time but as longer one hoard the item as more mana leaks and as less powerful the glyph is. See here the effective number of charges over one RL year:
https://imgur.com/go9EScF
This influences the glyphed rings and amulets only, the shards can be stored forever.
Two things: first, why? A player can only have a couple equipped at a time anyway?

Second: what about players who have irregular play, or multiple characters?

This is mainly wounding to people who do not actively and constantly use these things, and limits them to a point where it could be questionable for many on if they are worth using and purchasing at all

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:45 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

^

The uses seem limited as is, might be a little redundant to add more limitation/degradation

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:56 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Banduk wrote:Mana leakage
I do not think this adds any fun to the game. In fact, it looks like a punishment for players who did not play for a while. So basically if a player decides to return to Illarion after a couple of months, he might find his most valuable items being (half) useless. I think this is very discouraging and like Vern and Charlotte, I do not see any real benefit of such an offline/RL time deterioration of items. If I am not mistaken, the only place in the code where we really use RL time is for handing out magical gems. This is a reward to players and encourages them to log in frequently.
GM Commandments wrote:10. Whatever you do - do it to improve, to encourage and to initiate, not to hamper, to restrict or to prevent.
While the GM Commandments are not strictly applicable to development, I think this should be our way to go. If a thought starts "I think we should prevent..." then it cannot result in a good feature unless it is about an exploit such as item duping. Features should pose a certain challenge and grant a fitting reward. There is not reward about RL time deterioration of items.

There are two other aspect I'd like to comment on:
Design Principles of Game Content wrote:Use linear functions wherever possible. Use non linear functions only if they are fundamentally necessary but not because you think they are "better"
I am guilty of not always using linear functions, e.g. item prices depending on level are not linear. But your first though should always be a linear function even if it does not look like the "best" solution in first place. Linear functions are much, much more easy to tweak and balance. Also, everyone can understand them in a second. Complex functions almost everytime require a plot for better understanding.
Banduk wrote:The stuff has to be on the dev server soon, because it is now like an octopus in many functions.
I hope you are using "hooks" in those many functions. So one or two lines in other scripts that just call up a function in a glyph forging script if necessary. If you spread the functionality of glyphs over various places, no one but you will understand the system. Generally, I still highly recommend to code magic in a modular way. So basic functions should be shared among all magic systems. I'd appreciate these basic functions being pushed to the dev server as soon as possible so others can use them as well. We will save massive amounts of workload this way. Like, we won't need to code the very same functionality six times for six magic types. Currently, alchemy as the only available magic type holds many basic functions in the alchemy scripts; such functions we need to generalise, make them a basic function and apply them to glyph forging as well rather than reinventing the wheel.

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Post by Banduk » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:42 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Why degrade glyphs?

1st: The idea of the glyphs is to delay the application of magic energy (called mana) and make it able to use for non-mages. The idea was not to store magic energy forever.
Compared to a fighter it would be as if one could store your strength in a spring and add this stored strength at any time to the existing strength.
For a mage the delay of application of magic energy becomes useless latest when mana regeneration have had replaced the saved mana. In the worst case it is about one hour.
One of the consequences of not degraded glyphs should be: Mages must not be able to apply glyphs, at least not their own. (Be aware, especially wand magic profits from glyph effects.)

2nd: Non degraded glyphs would add a linear advantage to long term player. Proportional to the time you play and collect glyphed items is the advantage of the collected glyphs. This is a slap in the face of casual or new player.
There was a reason why the effect of the long time award magic gems becomes smaller and smaller as more magic gems you collected over time. That way the power of older chars don’t grow into the sky.

3rd: The described functions would not hurt a casual player hard since within the first 4 month after creation degradation is barely visible.

4th: Glyphs should be consumables. Without degradation they will end up in chests. Consumable in chests are anything but consumables.

5th: Mages need less powerful carriers to learn. Without degradation most players would accept only gold rings and amulets due to the better effects. It will become hard or impossible to learn the skill, especially if at least one skilled player exists in game later. It is a hard punishment for new chars starting the skill.
If a fresh amethyst ring would provide more advantage than gold amethyst ring taken from the storage it might become easier.

6th: You can store shards forever. So even a casual player can hold his shards for years without any loss.

7th: Shards are storable but have no effect. Creating the effect requires a ritual that cannot be performed as a mass production like swords or potions. So far the sudden appearance out of nothing of numerous powerful glyphed items becomes less probable.

Advantage instead of punishment and linear function:
We could also use the reverse way: We reward earlier use. As earlier one use a glyph as higher the probability the charge is not consumed. The probability degrades linear with time. For a glyph with 5 charges, a start probability of 80% and a degradation of 1% per week see here the average available charges. The max is always eternity, the min 5. https://imgur.com/WR2thBn
Sad to say, due to the linear function there is a very high loss at the beginning.

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Post by Vern Kron » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:48 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

The first bit seems to be just a statement about lore, that hasn't really even been established.

I don't understand how having many glyphed pieces would overly enhance a character. Unless a player decided to carry around with them extra glyphed necklaces and rings? What harm would it be for a player to have 10 of these glyphed rings hanging around in their depots? Simply make their charges fairly low, so they have to get re-glyphed.

The issue you present with 'lower level carriers' is true. If it is arranged in such a way that creating these glyphs is based on the metals used: (bronze, silver, gold, archmage rings) (bronze, silver, gold, icebird?) then it faces a similar issue that much of the other crafts do: They will be selling goods that they learn with, that no one really wants to buy. The suggestion I would have is this: make it possible to 'break' a glyph. Make it be a level 1 thing, and have it yield a few random shards from the table. The higher level the glyph/object, the better the yield. It may be a complicated process to code that, I don't know.

In reality, I just don't understand why it is an issue to have these objects maintain themselves?
The concern mainly feels to be tied to the objects that impact opponents, and older players hoarding goods. I will admit, I would be fairly annoyed to come across a character who after having fought them for a while, their topaz amulet fails. Only for them to put on a second one. So make that not possible:
After a topaz amulet/other glyph is expended, a glyph of that type cannot be equipped for a short period, like 5 minutes. Now if a character pulls out an emerald amulet and puts it on, after the topaz amulet, fair enough. They simply are more prepared than I am.
(This would also be helpful in the case that a ruby ring shoots fireballs, or does something directly against another creature. I can't just mass accumulate ruby fireball rings to nuke someone down, without it breaking and having to wait some time before I can begin my assault anew.)

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:16 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

I think it depends a lot on what happens to the ring/amulet once all charges are depleted. If the ring/amulet can be reused without restrictions, of course, everyone will use the best (gold), only. But if the item is degraded or even destroyed, players might avoid using items that require pure elements or merinium during production.
Banduk wrote:Jewels break with a certain probability if the last charge was used (0.3)
30 % sounds about fair even though I could also imagine 100 % and/or a quality loss. I think this is a perfect magic tweaking aspect that can be adjusted during first test rounds.

Following the magic concept, the material (copper, silver, gold) shall have an influence on the number of charges and also the actual effects. Some proposed effects look difficult to scale, so this needs closer investigation. But I am pretty sure there is always a scalar around, e.g. chance of the effect getting invoked, distances, damage,...

None of the seven points brought up by Banduk really tells me why RL time deterioration of items adds any fun to the game. But that is the good part about this public discussion; everyone may voice his/her opinion and we can think about things differently, inspired by the input brought up. The natural consequence will be that players stockpile shards instead of glyphed items and produce demanded glyphs on the fly, only. Players will argue about the RL age of a glyphed item before buying it so they can estimate the charges left. Levelling up will be done with "throw away" items and without demand, there won't be glyphs. Maybe I am totally mistaken and players will love this and like the added complexity / planning ahead. But to me, it still looks like a punishment if I lose stuff over time without me even playing the game.

We should take into account that the magic concept speaks about three item producing magic types:
  • Druid potions (Alchemy)
  • Blessed items (Sanctificators)
  • Glyphed jewellery
For druid potions, it is not foreseen to let them degrade over RL time. I assume most active alchemists would go rampage if we introduce this. The blessing of items shall wear down over time, but ingame time. And only if the item is actively used/equipped.

So we have one type of item that is used actively on demand (potions), one that is used by equipping permanently (blessed items) and one that is used by triggering events (glyphed jewellery). It does not strike me why only the last type of items should have a RL time deterioration. But I'd be interested in the opinions of others. Not everything can be planned on a drawing board, so maybe there are experiences from other games?

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Post by Banduk » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:35 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Estralis Seborian wrote: Following the magic concept, the material (copper, silver, gold) shall have an influence on the number of charges and also the actual effects. Some proposed effects look difficult to scale, so this needs closer investigation. But I am pretty sure there is always a scalar around, e.g. chance of the effect getting invoked, distances, damage,...
For the moment there is implemented an effect on the effect power (duration, damage, probability ...) depending on the carrier material. The number of charges is fix but different for each gem.
These numbers need a detailed optimization.

Not yet done are dynamic charge number on creation. I'll implement this today.
I'd go the way there is no influence from the material type (copper, silver, gold). This is covered by the power of the effect already.
I'd implement an effect based on skill, attributes (highest mage attribute) and carrier quality plus a random factor. Each influence factor will have an effect of 25%, the total range is planned from 0.5 to 1.5 of the nominal charge number.

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Post by Banduk » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:11 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Not to bad, all 28 effects are coded and tested
I did a very first balancing but this has to be done very carefully.

Now it's on you to comment:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Since there was an incredible number of proposals for effects it was very hard to define which one I should take into consideration.
Sorry for every idea I was not able to implement.

If there is any question don't hesitate to ask me in IRC. This might be about 1000% more effective compared to a forum discussion.

incredible number=0

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Post by Banduk » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:18 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Vern Kron wrote:The issue you present with 'lower level carriers' is true. If it is arranged in such a way that creating these glyphs is based on the metals used: (bronze, silver, gold, archmage rings) (bronze, silver, gold, icebird?) then it faces a similar issue that much of the other crafts do: They will be selling goods that they learn with, that no one really wants to buy. The suggestion I would have is this: make it possible to 'break' a glyph. Make it be a level 1 thing, and have it yield a few random shards from the table. The higher level the glyph/object, the better the yield.
I'll follow that proposal.
Breaking a glyph will be a ritual able at 20% lower skill than making the glyphe. There are some shards in return calculated as 50-90% of the original number multiplied by the relative number of remaining charges compared to the maximal possible.
e.g. 20 charges nominal, 30 max.: The carrier was made with 25 and 10 charges were already used. The return of shards is [0.5,0.9
]*15/30*7=[1.75,3.15]. So 1 to 3 shards remain. The best value increased by 2 additional shards for copper and 1 for silver carriers. The return will be max at 6, so one shard is always lost. The carrier is destroyed in every case.
The good thing, I have another ritual and can reduce the ritual time further.
Vern Kron wrote:In reality, I just don't understand why it is an issue to have these objects maintain themselves?
The concern mainly feels to be tied to the objects that impact opponents, and older players hoarding goods. I will admit, I would be fairly annoyed to come across a character who after having fought them for a while, their topaz amulet fails. Only for them to put on a second one. So make that not possible:
After a topaz amulet/other glyph is expended, a glyph of that type cannot be equipped for a short period, like 5 minutes. Now if a character pulls out an emerald amulet and puts it on, after the topaz amulet, fair enough. They simply are more prepared than I am.
(This would also be helpful in the case that a ruby ring shoots fireballs, or does something directly against another creature. I can't just mass accumulate ruby fireball rings to nuke someone down, without it breaking and having to wait some time before I can begin my assault anew.)
This is a good way to avoid overpowering a character by collection glyphs for years and coming along with 50 rings in the bag, replacing them one by one during the engagement. I think even the expectation this could happen will give that char an extreme advantage.
I'll go the easier way and have a lead time. Once one wear a ring or amulet there is a lead time of 2 min until the first glyph charge can be consumed. That's even understandable: Imagine someone try to put an amulet around his neck or a precious small ring on the finger wearing gloves during a fight.

The probability a gold carrier breaks at the end becomes slightly higher than a silver or even a copper (0.6,0.5,0.4) So there is another disadvantage for carriers with higher effect power not effecting the effect itself improving the general value of the low level carriers.
Vern Kron wrote:It may be a complicated process to code that, I don't know.
Just a hint, very often the simple things are more difficult to code than a difficult one. So don't hide an idea just because you think it's too difficult. But on the other hand, if a developer say: "That's too difficult." trust him.

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