Silk droprate and consistency

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Vermillion Dynasty
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Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Vermillion Dynasty »

Tailoring requires a lot of silk to level. Post level 70 all recipes require it, and the last item you can use to level tailoring without it, silver studded leather gloves, can only get you to level 80. This is going off the assumption that I am reading the crafts.lua correctly:

Code: Select all

function Craft:addProduct(categoryId, itemId, quantity, data)      difficulty = math.min(world:getItemStatsFromId(itemId).Level, 100)      learnLimit = math.min(difficulty+20, 100)      quantity = quantity or 1      data = data or {}
From what I see, the one item that doesn't require silk at level 60, silver studded leather gloves, makes for a learnlimit of 60+20=80.
Therefore it is required post level 80, to a degree that is a frighteningly large when you consider the drop-rate.
Sure, it is a developer decision whether or not it should be easy to get silk and thus easy or not to make the high-end produce that is required to get tailoring past 80, this is more about it being inconsistent with other crafts. Here are the two inconsistencies this proposal is about:

From what I can see, Silk is for tailoring what merinium is for smithing and heartwood for carpentry.
1.
I am unaware of what the droprate of heartwood is, however merinium is much easier to obtain both having a specific source and more frequent droprate (possibly related to being of a specific source.) Either way, it is easier to get merinium meaning it is easier to level smithing.
2.
Heartwood is obtained through chopping wood, which is also the skill you need to get the primary resource of carpentry.
Merinium is obtained through mining, also the skill you need for the primary resource of smithing and finesmithing.
Silk is obtained through.. herblore? Meanwhile, tanning and weaving is the skill to get the primary resource of tailoring. Herblore is just a secondary gathering skill to get a select few herbs needed for certain dyes, but so is farming for the cabbages in green dye, or mining for the ingots and gems needed in recipes. It may make more sense realistically to have silk belong to herblore, but it is also inconsistent, and on many occasions this game has favored consistency and balance over realism. Additionally, given the steep price of 50 silver(when compared to actual profit from the item made) from merchants and the rarity of the droprate (meaning less silk for sale from players), tailors are practically forced to level both shearing and herblore to get anywhere, already having to buy ingots and gems from players or npcs, making for a much slower learning curve for tailors compared to other crafts due to more accumulation of MC.

Solution:
1.
Going off the assumption that heartwood has as low a droprate as silk:
Either make silk/heartwood have a specific source and same droprate as merinium
or,
Make merinium a random gain from any rock, not a specific source, and lower the droprate to be as rare as silk and heartwood.

2.
Ignore realism and make silk part of the random rewards from shearing sheep.
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GolfLima
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by GolfLima »

as a side note:

1) Merinium has a limited number of sources ((only 24 spots in the merinium mine))
2) Silk has an unlimmited number of sources ((??? spots of herbs, ... :arrow: it makes totally no sense to increase the number of spots))
Vermillion Dynasty wrote:2.
Ignore realism and make silk part of the random rewards from shearing sheep.
3) as i know the "droprate" of silk / heartwood is not final and will be adjusted
Last edited by GolfLima on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Karrock
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Karrock »

Vermillion Dynasty wrote: 2.
Ignore realism and make silk part of the random rewards from shearing sheep.
A char is not supposed to be master in everything. If you have problems with getting silk during your work, buy it from others.
Vermillion Dynasty
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Vermillion Dynasty »

GolfLima wrote:as a side note:

1) Merinium has a limited number of sources ((only 24 spots in the merinium mine))
2) Silk has an unlimmited number of sources ((??? spots of herbs, ... :arrow: it makes totally no sense to increase the number of spots))
My proposal never said to increase the number of spots. The droprate of silk is too low. You can spend hours to get silk and get only 1 if your luck is bad, meanwhile one trip to the merinium mine and you're guaranteed a dozen merinium along with your gold, even more if you drop the gold ore and only mine merinium. One of my characters has level 100 mining as he is a miner/digger by trade, so I'm aware of the difference in the droprates by time spent performing the action.
Karrock wrote:
Vermillion Dynasty wrote: 2.
Ignore realism and make silk part of the random rewards from shearing sheep.
A char is not supposed to be master in everything. If you have problems with getting silk during your work, buy it from others.
Hey let's just ignore what I said about the price being steep, that it's so rare others don't have it for sale, not to mention the fact that if you only do tailoring you will have to farm wool from sheep for hours then leather from cattle, meaning tanning and shearing, then buy silver or copper ingots from other players, in order to finally make a measly few silvers and repeat in order to afford a silk or two from other players who won't sell it much lower than the npc price due to it's rarity, unlike merinium which is easier to get and thus sold cheaper and more often by other players.

Additionally, this has never been about mastering everything?? Why is it every thread you're in you make nonsensical comments about that, straying away from the subject. Do you think it makes you sound intelligent copying what other players sometimes write? Because it does not when you use it at the wrong times. This is about mastering the trade tailoring WITHOUT having any other trades to support your income. This is the exact opposite, I am bringing up actual problems here that stray with the consistency of the crafts, making it much more difficult to level a tailor than the other crafts. Do you think I'd give a damn or even notice these faults if my character maxed other crafts already? I would've had the gold to buy all the silk I wanted, then. But I don't, cause I'm not trying to master everything but just tailoring so your comment makes absolutely no sense. So please, refrain from commenting in the proposals I make unless you have something actually constructive to say, and not just some copy-paste you think makes you look smart.
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Achae Eanstray
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Achae Eanstray »

I would like to point out again, a proposal is to bring out thoughtful ideas to positively affect the game, that would include comments to proposals....i.e. why would that work, what would improve it, why wouldn't it work.

Any personal discussion can be carried on in PM's please. http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=38019


I believe Estralis mentioned silk, merinium and heartwood needed to be adjusted and balanced. (Sorry I lost the link)

I think silk can also be found killing spiders and there is a dungeon with spiders. My character hasn't attempting to see the drop rate there yet, is this considered? Instead of a pure element drop from sheep, silk drop may be a good alternative :)

Best suggestion for balancing discussion would be good thank you.
Ragorn
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Ragorn »

Solution:
1.
Going off the assumption that heartwood has as low a droprate as silk:
Either make silk/heartwood have a specific source and same droprate as merinium
or,
Make merinium a random gain from any rock, not a specific source, and lower the droprate to be as rare as silk and heartwood.

2.
Ignore realism and make silk part of the random rewards from shearing sheep.
Very good ideas, because the current distribution of merinium/silk/heartwood is completely unfair especially related to silk (drop chance and additional skill that is not related to tailoring is required) and heartwood (drop chance).

Alternative for 1:
instead of lowering the drop chance for merinium, increase the drop chance for silk and heartwood to a similar value as merinium.
Vermillion Dynasty
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Vermillion Dynasty »

Ragorn wrote: Alternative for 1:
instead of lowering the drop chance for merinium, increase the drop chance for silk and heartwood to a similar value as merinium.
That's what I was trying to say with the
"Either make silk/heartwood have a specific source and same droprate as merinium"
You would have to make it as source specfic as merinium though, since merinium has a rather high droprate but limited sources to obtain it from. (RIght now you can never run out of sources for silk but find maybe 1 in several hours, meanwhile you can do all the merinium sources, get maybe 12 then wait for them to respawn. If silk had the same droprate but more spawns, that would be unfair as well).
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Jupiter
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Jupiter »

As said by GolfLima and Achae, the drops rates are not yet final and will be adjusted at one point.
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GolfLima
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by GolfLima »

Vermillion Dynasty wrote:
GolfLima wrote:as a side note:

1) Merinium has a limited number of sources ((only 24 spots in the merinium mine))
2) Silk has an unlimmited number of sources ((??? spots of herbs, ... :arrow: it makes totally no sense to increase the number of spots))
My proposal never said to increase the number of spots. The droprate of silk is too low. You can spend hours to get silk and get only 1 if your luck is bad, meanwhile one trip to the merinium mine and you're guaranteed a dozen merinium along with your gold, even more if you drop the gold ore and only mine merinium. One of my characters has level 100 mining as he is a miner/digger by trade, so I'm aware of the difference in the droprates by time spent performing the action.
:arrow: dont compare Merinium and SILK
* there are totally different requirements (( i never could mine merinium 1 hour without a break - due to the fact that there is no source available ))
* and true (( as i posted in another post )) rate of finding silk should be adjusted ((increased))
Vermillion Dynasty
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Vermillion Dynasty »

GolfLima wrote:
Vermillion Dynasty wrote:
GolfLima wrote:as a side note:

1) Merinium has a limited number of sources ((only 24 spots in the merinium mine))
2) Silk has an unlimmited number of sources ((??? spots of herbs, ... :arrow: it makes totally no sense to increase the number of spots))
My proposal never said to increase the number of spots. The droprate of silk is too low. You can spend hours to get silk and get only 1 if your luck is bad, meanwhile one trip to the merinium mine and you're guaranteed a dozen merinium along with your gold, even more if you drop the gold ore and only mine merinium. One of my characters has level 100 mining as he is a miner/digger by trade, so I'm aware of the difference in the droprates by time spent performing the action.
:arrow: dont compare Merinium and SILK
* there are totally different requirements (( i never could mine merinium 1 hour without a break - due to the fact that there is no source available ))
* and true (( as i posted in another post )) rate of finding silk should be adjusted ((increased))
Like I said previously:
" Silk is for tailoring what merinium is for smithing and heartwood for carpentry."
So yes, I will compare merinium and silk.
The totally different "requirements" you speak of? This is exactly what this post is about. Silk is the merinium of tailoring. It's inconsistent that merinium has different "requirements" on how to get it in comparison with silk and heartwood.

Maybe you should try to find someone to translate the proposal to German for you if you care enough(I can't speak german and don't know people who are good enough at either language to do so), because the points you've raised thus far appears to be more due to a language barrier? I believe I've made these things pretty clear in English at least.
Ragorn
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Ragorn »

Jupiter wrote:... the drops rates are not yet final and will be adjusted at one point.
Just do it. It's just two variables that need to be fixed.
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Vern Kron
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Vern Kron »

From what I have seen, heartwood (which is a low percentage item from two types of trees), and merinium (available in low percentage drop from local mine), seem to be in a solid enough position. It may require some grinding, but it doesn't involve any skill that would be strange: woodcutting and carpentry go hand in hand. Mining and smithing of all kinds go hand in hand.

Herblore and tailoring had previously been connected through the process of creating thread with sibanac: however that wasn't really used in the first place by most players, because it could also be done with wool and entrails, fairly common objects vs finding a random herb patch you farm for three thread every few minutes.

I think a solid way to combat the issue, and bring it into a similar stand as the other crafts, would be to create a silkworm object.

Interaction with this object would increase relevant skill for shearing/tanning. Product yield would be low quality silk (a common product, for mid tier items) and high quality silk, (rarer, for high level items). Leave all other methods of gathering silk in the game as well.

The workload this would require: graphics and coding for tool and resource drop, map edition of items, and some recipe adjustment for low quality silk. Or just leave it out, and have wool or thread come from the object directly. Having a direct only source for silk would be slightly unfair to the other crafts which get their work done from rocks that produce raw stone which is essentially garbage, and trees that primarily produce other resources.
Another alternative is that this production also creates "web" and silk. The web can additionally be refined into thread?
Vermillion Dynasty
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Vermillion Dynasty »

I love the idea of this silkworm object. This would also make silk as manageable as merinium in terms of droprate.
Create as many silkworm objects at approximately the same distance away from towns as the merinium mine, make it the same droprate, make it otherwise produce wool or similar like Vern proposed.

Then to deal with the rumored spider drops, does merinium drop from golems? If not, wouldn't the golems at Letma be a good monster-source to equal the spider drops? Of course, a similar system for heartwood would be neccessary for complete balance between the three rare materials.

At least for now it seems very unbalanced. A lack of heartwood may only mean a lack of high-tier shields, but a lack of silk in comparison to merinium also means a lack of high-end gear for light-armor users when compared to medium and heavy armor, making it more favorable to make characters that use heavy and medium armor. This is all with the principle of balance between the various crafts and armor groups, as a starting-point, though.

In my opinion it is easier to guide and shape an in game economy and skill distribution if there is balance. As it is currently, smithing crafts will be favored over carpentry and carpentry over tailoring, as well as heavy and medium armor over light, if you see it from a meta-gaming point of view, and let's be honest - many of our people who roleplay also enjoy meta-gaming and challenging the engine in PvE. We simply do not have the player-base to promote an experience where you RP all the time without using the engine to pass time in between RP sessions.

Kudos to Vern though for his suggestion, that's the kind of feedback on a proposal that's constructive and not just a negative "Stop complaining" type of feedback that makes one want to not bother anymore.
Drugar Stonesmasher
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Drugar Stonesmasher »

Vermillion Dynasty wrote: Then to deal with the rumored spider drops, does merinium drop from golems?

Merinium Golems do drop Merinium.
But you will not find them in the free nature, not that i know of.

Appart from that i dont think Carpentry is worse of to Smithing
Its much easier to obtain 100 Heartwood than Merinium
Merinium nees to be smeltered (ok.. thats more or less nothing realy)
Merinium is needed by 3 crafts (Armorsmithing, Weaponsmithing and Goldsmithing),
so more people are competing in the merinium mine for the few rocks in there.

But thats no complaint. To me its ok that way.
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Vern Kron
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Vern Kron »

I have been thinking about some of the difficulties involving the silk issue:
Silk is somewhat difficult to get, especially in comparison to the other resources of equal level.
Silk is expensive to purchase from npc's, to the point that purchasing silk from an npc (or a player who sells it at market value), makes profit difficult, if not impossible (thus discouraging trade in the first place, and promoting further self-reliance by the player).
Most, (not all), objects created using silk have little benefit. Goldsmithing at least has the benefit in that if a person highlights a diamond ring, it implies wealth. Tailoring does not do that as much, so why make silk such a strict gateway for these higher end items?

Proposal:

Part 1) Add a grove of trees that you pick fruit from, but instead of apples it produces thread (like 10?), with a 25%-50% chance to produce silk in those collections as well. Put these trees in a fairly accessible location, but also with spiders of the same strength as the slimes in the glittery mines. Perhaps inside the well next to the hemptie?

Requirements:
Add or edit tree use graphic (Could use the dead looking tree, and the white/orange blooming tree as well, but may need to edit locations placed as a result).
Add a new 'fruit gathering' script. (Doesn't look terribly complicated).
Add a location for getting the rewards.

Results:
Increased drop rate of silk, in a somewhat related manner to the skills (fruit gathering was part of farming, which is used to produce dyes).
Increase traffic to under used parts of the map.
Help tailoring as a skill, as a somewhat cosmetic skillset.
Increase thread available in the game, but not significantly enough to cause trouble.


Part 2)
Change the random event of 'cloth gloves hanging on a tree' to 'a piece of silk clings to a branch'.

Requirements:
Change two lines of code, and the alert.

Results
Provides another source of silk that isn't exactly abusive to the system, but something that adds a bit of cheer to the person involved.
Lessens the silk difficulty for tailors.
Provides a small boon of income to new players if they get lucky enough to pull in some silk.
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Karrock
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Karrock »

I'm not sure if this is changed yet.
Many words used. If there is a real problem with gathering silk (when heartwood is simple to get from my observations) just increase chance to drop it from plants. That's all.

Regarding to opinion that's herblore is not tailoring skill, you're not right. Silk in nature appears on trees. And I wanted before to become as one char glass-blower, even almost mastered digging, but for glass there is need ash (from trees). I drop the idea because of mc for longer time. I like the concept that mastering all main crafts takes a time. Those who are mastered in everything or almost everything play this games by years. This is something what attract people to play. (Players don't log when they have mastered their main skills because no one expect when rp appear. Mostly rp appears between common doings. Like skilling, earning etc. So most those who mastered their main skills or got needed quanity of coins log only on quests.).
Ragorn
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Ragorn »

Since nothing changed until now, here a very simple proposal, which can be implemented in 10 minutes:

Requirement: Please increase drop rate for silk.

Technically: In gathering.lua (around line 158) replace current droprate from prob_occasionally (0.0025, 0.25%, 1/400) to prob_frequently (0.005, 0.5%, 1/200).

Personally I think this rate is still to low, I'd prefer 1/100. Maybe some lua developer can add a local variable "prob_very_frequently = 0.01" and assign that to the silk drop propability.

Thank you!
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Estralis Seborian »

A reasonable intermediate solution. I'd appreciate seeing it implemented. Can't do it myself currently.
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Jupiter
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Jupiter »

Will take care of it later today
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Jupiter
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Re: Silk droprate and consistency

Post by Jupiter »

Set chance to prob_frequently. Will be effective with the next update. In case we need to adjust it further, we can use Ragorns second proposal to make use of a new variable.
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