Race languages / Rassensprachen

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Seajiha
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Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Seajiha »

(Deutsche Version weiter unten)

Hello!
I propose the re-implementation of race languages in the game, so that individual races (humans, dwarves etc) all have their individual language, that other races do not understand.

Why?: Currently, every race understands every language and from my point of view this is just unimmersive. Also this could open up roleplay opportunities and would make the races a bit more distinct than they are now. Additionally, later on ancient/monster languages and learnable languages could be implemented.

We do not have dev-time for that: I volunteer to code this feature myself (it is already implemented, that is not much work). But before doing this, I want to know how you think about this feature in general:

(a) I do not want to have race languages, they are lame/split the players even more etc
(b) I want race languages in the following style:
(b.1) pre-vbu: Place random * in the original text: [Human] H*ll* m* n*m**i* S**j*h*
(b.2) Replace everything with one character: [Human] ************************
(b.3) Replace everything with one character, retain spaces: [Human] ***** ** **** ** *******
(b.4) Replace vowels with vowels, consonants with consonants: [Human] Mikla ki leme lo Siohuki
(b.5) Inform the player, that he does not understand this language: [Human] <you do not understand this language>
(b.6) Your idea!

-----------------------------------------------

Hallo!
I schlage die Wiedereinführung der Rassensprachen vor, damit individuelle Rassen (Menschen, Zwerge usw.)
alle ihre jeweiligen Sprachen besitzen, die andere Rassen nicht verstehen.

Wieso?: Zurzeit versteht jede Rasse jede Sprache und aus meiner Sicht ist das nicht sehr immersiv. Außerdem könnte dies Rollenspielmöglichkeiten eröffnen und würde dafür sorgen, dass die Rassen etwas unterschiedlicher sind als zurzeit. Auf lange Sicht könnten auch antike oder Monster-Sprachen, sowie erlernbare Sprache eingebaut werden.

Wir haben keine Entwickler dafür: Ich würde das Ganze freiwillig programmieren. Da es an sich bereits im Server implementiert ist, ist das keine große Sache. Aber um es richtig zu implementieren, würde ich gerne eure Meinung dazu hören.

Dazu habe ich mal ein paar Ideen gesammelt, wie das System am Ende aussehen könnte:
(a) Ich möchte keine Rassensprache, sie sind langweilig, zerteilen die Spielergemeinschaft usw.
(b) Ich möchte Rassensprachen, im folgenden Stil:
(b.1) Vor-Vbu: Setze zufällige * in den originalen Satz: [Mensch] H*ll* m* n*m**i* S**j*h*
(b.2) Ersetze alles mit einem Zeichen: [Mensch] ************************
(b.3) Ersetze alles mit einem Zeichen, behalte Leerzeichen bei: [Mensch] ***** ** **** ** *******
(b.4) Ersetze Vokale mit Vokalen und Konsonanten mit Konsonanten: [Mensch] Mikla ki leme lo Siohuki
(b.5) Informiere den Spiele darüber, dass er die Sprache nicht versteht: [Mensch] <du verstehst diese Sprache nicht>
(b.6) Deine Idee!
Alrik
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Alrik »

I like this Idea. My favourite would be b.1.

What is in your mind how to learn new languages (like as you said like Ancient?)

-------------------------------------------

Ich mag die Idee. Mein Favorit wäre b.1.

Was wäre deine Idee wie man neue Sprachen lernt (zum Beispiel wie du erwähnt hast Ancient?)
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Lia
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Lia »

Ich finde das nicht schlimm das man es jetzt verstehen kann. Bisher habe ich auch niemanden gesehen der es nicht berücksichtigt hätte. Also entsprechend agiert das sein Char es nicht versteht.

Ansonsten, wenn es den wieder funktioniert sollte man aber auch gleich die Ancient Sprache also die Sprache der Magier mit einbauen. Wenn schon dann richtig. So wie es vor dem VBU war.
Ob man dann später noch mehr Sprachen hinzufügt kann man dann später noch sehen, halte ich aber nicht unbedingt für notwendig.

Ich würde zu b.2 tendieren so wie es vor dem VBU war. Zumindestens seit ich gespielt habe war es so. ( vorraus gesetzt der Gegenüber hat die Sprache in der er sprach vollkommen beherscht.)

Zu der Lehrmethode würde ich bei Ancient bleiben wie es bisher war. Das waren glaube ich 3 Seiten in einem Buch wo man Pro RL Tag nur eine Seite lesen konnte. Und danach mußte man dies durch sprechen üben. (wobei ich mich entsinne das auch auto emotes mein lernen halfen weshalb viele werdende Magier ein Instrument lernten xD Fand ich nicht schlimm )

Damit dann aber nicht Jeder einfach jede Sprache in der Bibliothek lernen kann könnte man Bücher der jeweiligen Rassensprache sinnig verteilen.
Mensch = Königin Rosaline
Zwerg = Don
Elf = Erzmagier Elvaine

( gut es ist nicht ganz ausgereift die Idee )

Aber in den Städten könnten die Oberhäupte dann einen Interpreter ernennen. Der kann dann nicht nur jede Sprache (die Magiersprache ausgenommen, den Magier können sich auch in ihrer Volksprache verständigen) sondern wacht auch über die Lehrbücher selbiger Sprachen.
Heißt wenn man eine andere Sprache lernen möchte muß man erst die Erlaubnis des jeweiligen Stadtoberhaupt erhalten bevor man mit selbiger Erlaubnis ein Lehrbuch von den Interpreter bekommen kann.

Bei Ancient wären dann der jeweilige höste Magier der Stadt der Jenige der die Ancient Lehrbücher ausgeben kann. Aber nur wenn ein Schüler einen Lehrmeister hat und von diesem die entsprechende "Erlaubnis"
Oder ein Lehrmeister holt für sein Schüler selbst ein Buch.

Die Bücher selbst kann immer nur 1 Char benutzen, sind danach nutzlos. Was denke ich verhindert das man es einfach weiter gibt an Freunde. Gut entsprechend vertrauenswürdig sollten die Interpreter sein. Nicht nur die Charaktere sondern auch der spieler.
Einfach um zu verhindern das Freunde sich untereinander dazu verhelfen eine Sprache zu lernen wie sie gerade lustig sind.


Man könnte auch verbotene Sprachen einführen. Die Sprache der Demonen zum Beispiel. Das Buch wird von der Stadt niemals rausgegeben weil es verboten ist diese Sprache zu sprechen, aber es könnte Lehrbücher versteckt in irgendwelchen verborgenen Bibliotheken geben.

Soviel von dem was mir gerade so durch den Kopf ging. xD

________________________________

I do not think it is bad that you can understand it now. So far I have not seen anyone who would not have considered it. So, according to his Char does not understand it.

Otherwise, if it works again, however, you should also install the ancient language, the language of the magicians. If so then right. Just as it was before the VBU.
If you later add more languages later you can still see, but I do not necessarily necessary.

I would tend to b.2 as it was before the VBU. At least since I've played it was so. (In front of the other the language in which he spoke spoke perfectly.)

To the teaching method I would remain with Ancient as it was so far. I think this is 3 pages in a book where you can read Pro RL Tag only one page. And after that one had to practice it. (I remember that also auto emotes my learning helped why many becoming magicians learned an instrument xD I found it not bad)

So that not everyone can simply learn every language in the library, one could distribute books of the respective racial language meaningfully.
Human = Queen Rosaline
Dwarf = Don
Elf = Archmage Elvaine

(Well it's not quite mature the idea)

But in the cities the leaders could then appoint an interpreter. He can then only speak every language (except the magician language, the magician can also communicate in their folk Language), but also watch over the textbooks of the same languages.
If you want to learn a different language you have to get permission from the respective Head of Town before you can get a textbook from the interpreters with the same permission.

In the case of Ancient, the respective magician of the city would then be able to spend the Ancient textbooks. But only if a student has a teacher and from this the appropriate "permission"
Or a teacher gets a book for his student.

The books themselves can only use 1 char, are useless afterwards. What I think prevents you from simply passing it on to friends. The interpreters should be very trustworthy. Not only the characters but also the player.
Just to prevent the friends to help each other learn a language just as they are funny.

One could also introduce forbidden languages. The language of the demons, for example. The book is never published by the city because it is forbidden to speak this language, but there could be textbooks hidden in some hidden libraries.

So much of what was going through my head. XD
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Falyame
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Falyame »

Ich finde eine eigene Druidensprache als notwendig im Spiel ^^.

Neue Sprachen zu erlernen find ich nicht gut. Auch wenn man dies erschweren würde, liefe es am Ende darauf hin, dass so gut wie jeder Charakter alle Sprachen kann. Man muss auch einen gutn Grund vorlegen, warum und wie und von wem ein Charakter die Sprache erlernt hat.

Ich wär auch für b.1

b.4 fänd ich auch gut, würde aber glaube ich im Chat Fenster zu sehr verwirren.
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Seajiha
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Seajiha »

The problem, that if learnable languages are available all characters will speak any language at one point could be solved by restricting the maximum amount of learnable languages through intelligence (or any other skill). I think this would be quite immersive.

You could learn languages using books or attending special events (e.g. becoming a mage). These skills could be trained by speaking the language or reading books. However, if you know another method tell me, as I'm interested.

---------------

Das Problem, dass durch lernbare Sprachen jeder Charakter irgendwann wieder alle Sprachen sprechen kann, könnte dadurch angegangen werden, dass die Intelligenz (oder nen anderes Attribute) eines Charakters die maximal erlernbaren Sprachen begrenzt. Das würde auch von der Logik her ganz gut passen denke ich.

Neue Sprachen könnte man dann durch Bücher erlernen oder spezielle Ereignisse (zB dadurch, dass der Spieler ein Magier wird). Verbessert werden könnten diese Skills dann wiederum durch Sprechen oder Bücher. Bin aber anderen Möglichkeiten gegenüber offen^^.
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Mephistopheles »

Could there perhaps be a a way to tie intelligence into it?

Say for instance, you may need at very least 6 int to learn one extra language, 8-10 int would allow someone to learn two extra languages etc.

An extra language or two for rp is cool, but I think only highly intelligent chars should be able to learn many languages.

I like the idea of monster languages as well, Dungeons and Dragons or Pathfinder rpgs often have Draconic, infernal, abyssal, celestial, or even Aberrant (another word for "alien" or "apart from the norm") all of which would provide alot of brilliant rp during quests for scholar or mage types.
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GolfLima
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by GolfLima »

ein paar kurze Gedanken zu Sprachen in Illarion:
* wir haben im Moment etwa 90 Spieler mit ca. 200 Charakteren
* wir haben im Moment 8 Sprachen (Mensch, Elb, Zwerg, Echse, Halbling, Ork, Arkan, allg. Sprache- wobei man da sogar noch mal in Alt und Neu unterteilen könnte)
* Druidisch und Dämonisch wären vom Grundsatz zwar interessant, würden die Anzahl der Sprachen aber noch weiter erhöhen
* ==> mit jeder zusätzlichen Sprache verringert sich die Menge derer, die sie sprechen

* mit einer entsprechenden Anzahl an Charakteren einer Gruppe mag es schön sein eine Gruppensprache zu haben - leider sehe ich im Moment keine Basis dafür
* auch unter den jetzigen Bedingungen (ALLE können alle Sprachen mitlesen) habe ich kaum gesehen das diese Option genutzt wird - obwohl es möglich wäre
* die erlernbaren Sprachen zu beschränken (woran auch immer die Beschränkung geknüpft sein mag) ist eine Abkehr von dem Prinzip Jeder kann erst einmal uneingeschränkt ALLES lernen -> die Einschränkung "Magie" oder "Alchemie" habe ich nie richtig verstanden da Alchemie/Druidentum für mich eindeutig zu den Handwerken/Berufen gehört - dies mag sich später mit der Umstrukturierung der Alchemie, dem Einführen der Magie und möglicherweise dem Priestertum ändern
* welche Möglichkeiten es für Charaktere gibt eine "unbekannte" Sprache kennen zu lernen / zu erlernen müßte noch sehr genau durchdacht werden - m.E. ist die "Zuteilung" der Fähigkeit durch andere Charaktere, wie sich im alten Illa bei der Magie gezeigt hat, gründlich daneben gegangen

((p.s. wird vielleicht fortgesetzt und auch übersetzt, wenn sich nicht liebenswürdigerweise jemand anders findet, der dies tut. Danke im voraus.))
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Falyame
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Falyame »

Die Anzahl der Sprachen, die ein Charakter erlernen kann, an die Intelligenz zu knüpfen macht Sinn. Allerdings wird es arg viel, wenn man mit steigender INT immer mehr Sprachen sprechen kann. Ich für meinen Geschmack würde es so einschränken, dass man bei einem INT-Wert zB von 12? nur 1 zusätzliche Sprache erlernen kann, ab INT zB 16 die zweite. Magier und andere Chars mit hoher INT hätten dann die Besonderheit, mehr Sprachen sprechen zu können. Sollte ein Spieler mehr als 2 Sprachen sprechen wollen, kann man das ja mit einem GM bereden :).

Da Attribute in diesem Spiel sehr kostbar sind und besonders bei Kämpfen viel ausmachen, sollten sie daher auch für Sprachen kostbar bleiben. Ab INT 6 was zusätzlich erlernen zu können wäre schon extrem großzügig. Liegt nicht der durchschnittliche Gehirnschmalz bei INT 10? Wenn man schon bei einem INT von 7 diese Beschreibung erhält: "Du bist stolz darauf, in vollständigen Sätzen sprechen zu können, auch wenn sie nicht wirklich komplex sind. Lesen und Schreiben kannst du mit großer Anstrengung erlernen."/ "You are proud being able to phrase entire sentences, even if they are not really complex. You can learn to read and write with a good amount of effort. .", wie soll man dann in der Lage sein, ne weitere Sprache zu lernen?

Auch wenn ich mich dagegen ausgedrückt habe, gibt es sicherlich Charaktere, die von ihrem Hintergrund her eine zusätzliche Sprache rechtfertigen, hat einer meiner Charaktere sogar auch. Wenn aber jeder Spieler alle Sprachen sprechen kann, würden die verschiedenen Sprachen im Spiel den Sinn verlieren und die Sprachentränke auch. Daher würde ich es nur sehr stark beschränken und vielleicht sogar von GMs kontrollieren lassen, sollte die Idee wirklich durchgesetzt werden.

Keine Ahnung wie diese "Ancient" Sprache früher funktioniert hat, aber da sie nur für Magier vorgesehen ist, kann ich mir das so vorstellen, dass die Magier diese Sprache aus Büchern erlernen kann. Hat denn diese Ancient Sprache einen Nutzen für das Zaubern an sich oder ist das nur ein nettes Anhängsel?

Gut, das stimmt. Je mehr Sprachen im Spiel, umso weniger der Nutzen, da zu wenig Spieler. Ich könnte es mir nur so vorstellen, dass solche exotischen Sprache als ausgestorben gelten und nur noch in der Literatur zu finden sind.



- Sorry, can`t translate it into english, Im feeling too ill -.-.



PS: Druidentum =/= Alchemie, also =/= Beruf, Handwerk :P.

PPS: Hier nur so ne Idee für zusätzliche Sprachen (verbal sowie non-verbal). Eine eigene Zeichensprache/geheime Gossensprache/eigene ausgedachte Morsezeichen/militärische Zeichen kann man sich zumindest selbst ausdenken und IG umsetzen, wenn man will und andere Spieler dafür findet.
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GolfLima
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by GolfLima »

Falyame wrote:Keine Ahnung wie diese "Ancient" Sprache früher funktioniert hat, aber da sie nur für Magier vorgesehen ist, kann ich mir das so vorstellen, dass die Magier diese Sprache aus Büchern erlernen kann. Hat denn diese Ancient Sprache einen Nutzen für das Zaubern an sich oder ist das nur ein nettes Anhängsel?
* ancient mußte man aus einem Buch lernen welches man als Magier-Schüler von seinem Magie-Lehrer bekam
* ancient brauchte man wenn ich es recht im Kopf habe für die Zaubersprüche
* ancient war eine reine Magiersprache
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Jupiter
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Jupiter »

GolfLima wrote:* ancient war eine reine Magiersprache
Es gab ein, zwei Ausnahmen ;)

Aber bevor wir über Antik oder noch weitere Sprachen nachdenken, sollten erstmal die Rassensprachen da sein.
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Athlon
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Athlon »

Also mir gefällt es so wie es jetzt ist .

Man sieht gleich ob jemand sich an die Regeln des Rollenspielens hält oder nicht .
Beispiel :
Zwei Zwerge ( wer den sonst ;) ) unterhalten sich über ein Thema auf Zwergisch .
Dabei steht zB. ein Mensch der sie ja nicht verstehen dürfte und trotzdem steht der Inhalt des Gespräches am nächsten Tag in der Zeitung .
Sagt mir ganz schlechtes Rollenspiel , weil so wie es jetzt ist zwar jeder das geschriebene verstehen kann , aber ganz einfach nicht sollte .
Benutzen ja jetzt kaum Spieler Ihre Rassensprache , wobei es trotzdem tolles Rollenspiel wäre es zu tun , gerade wenn sie mehrere Spieler der gleichen Rasse treffen .

Nur so mal mein Senf zu dem Thema :)
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Estralis Seborian »

I am a bit torn on this topic. On the one hand, racial languages are a pretty unique feature not many games can offer. Illarion needs unique features that make it different from the other 241 other games out there. Also, we can advertise with such unique features and attract players. Still, on the other hand, racial languages come from a time when the main plan for Illarion was to have racial towns. This plan we abandoned years ago. The racial languages and especially this ancient language are known to result in players getting excluded from interaction. That's not the plan of Illarion.

Still, I think the uniqueness weights more than some possible abuses against the idea of cooperative playing. So, I'd be fine with racial languages, albeit not a pressing issue. I clearly favour this option:
(b.4) Replace vowels with vowels, consonants with consonants: [Human] Mikla ki leme lo Siohuki
I recommend the correlation between the individual letters to be constant within a language. So dwarves would replace all "o" with an "i" while elves replace the "o" with an "a". This way, the racial languages could even get a distinct sound (e.g. lizards replacing common consonants with z and s). I fully understand that players could, in theory, decipher the racial languages. But I think this requires a lot of effort and might even be a nice opportunity.

If players simply can learn more than their own racial language, nothing really neat remains but a brick wall for new players. I'd also not like to have a druid/mage/priest/smith/fisherman language in the game. We do not need more languages than players and I don't quite like the idea of certain professions separating themselves from the rest. For races, this makes somehow sense, but not for professions.

What is not really an option is to keep the strange !l human command. We want to get rid of all !#@/} like commands. So we'd need some sort of drop down selection or similar sooner or later in the client.
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Chirch ka shrr »

Well,

playing a lizard that does speak no other language than lizardish, i did not yet have any real bad experience.
Well.. its propably a bit pesky for Ssarney who needs to translate, as this one does not react to any comment in common.
But i never experienced any unfit action or comment due to what is said in lizardish, even when what is said is derisive to the bystanders.

But still separating it technically is a good thing too, cause there is always the issue of people knowing what they can't know or should'nt know.
And connecting it to INT is the only fitting way to do it in my opinion.
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Seajiha
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Seajiha »

Below is a short proof of concept for (b1) as it was the "most" requested //
Hier seht ihr mal einen öhhh Machbarkeitsbeweis für (b1), da es bisher das meist nachgefragte war

Image

Deutsche Übersetzung:
(1) Sender des Textes: Zurzeit sieht er seinen Text genauso wie er ihn geschrieben hat, egal wie gut oder schlecht sein Sprachskill ist.
(2) Empfänger des Textes, Sender und Empfänger haben den Zwergensprach-Skill auf 0
(3) Empfänger des Textes, Sender und Empfänger haben den Zwergensprach-Skill auf 50
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Subjective opinion: Looks pretty ugly to me. As ugly as it was in old times. And I need to ask what a skill 50 is supposed to mean; this means you want everyone to be able to learn languages of other races? I'd rather like to see a binary flag.
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

I finally learned how to use the IG translate so I can communicate better with the other half of the player base, and now you want to divide it further? I dont like this. This is a RP game. Communication is the very basis of this game. Lets not make it more difficult.
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Djironnyma »

I like b1 and b4
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Q-wert »

Judging from the past I say that one can't expect people to keep ooc knowledge only nebulously marked as such ooc. In regards of language I've seen very good roleplayers going "Hey, my human character heard a lot lizards hissing at each other, of course he understands what these guys are speaking of.". As long as it is openly seen for everyone and the (rather reasonable)"if you can do/see it in the engine, you can do it"-rule applies, characters will magically understand foreign languages for very obscure reasons.

I think I'd prefer this (and keep learning languages out for the time being):
(b.3) Replace everything with one character, retain spaces: [Human] ***** ** **** ** *******

A small openable menu on the chatbox for language, shouting/whispering would be nice, too.
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Seajiha
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Seajiha »

Hew Keenaxe wrote:you want to divide it further? I dont like this. This is a RP game. Communication is the very basis of this game. Lets not make it more difficult.
I understand. However, in the long term, I think race languages would generate more RP than reducing it. Currently nearly noone uses them and I think one of the reasons is that everyone can already read them (see: the ooc problem mentioned by qwert above).

If race languages would be added maybe players would use them more. This would not reduce the RP, because as a good rp-player you would already respected your unability to undestand the languages of a different race. But then again, you would now be really unable to understand them and therefore you would have more reason/interest to inspect what those lizards are talking about. Are they plotting? Of course they are plotting.

Additionally it would remove ooc-knowledge, which will always influence how you behave, which is the reason why I think, the less ooc-knowledge there is available in the game itself, the better it is.
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Seajiha wrote:
Hew Keenaxe wrote:you want to divide it further? I dont like this. This is a RP game. Communication is the very basis of this game. Lets not make it more difficult.
I understand. However, in the long term, I think race languages would generate more RP than reducing it. Currently nearly noone uses them and I think one of the reasons is that everyone can already read them (see: the ooc problem mentioned by qwert above).

If race languages would be added maybe players would use them more. But this would not reduce the RP, because as a good rp-player you would already respected your unability to undestand the languages of a different race. But then you would be really unable to understand them and therefore you would have more reason to inspect what those lizards are talking about. Are they plotting? Of course they are plotting.

Additionally it would remove ooc-knowledge, which will always influence how you behave, which is the reason why I think, the less ooc-knowledge there is available in the game itself, the better it is.
My character speak with a heavy accent. I have many times had to not speak that way just so I could communicate with those that are not english natives. I on the other hand, have tried hard to learn some basic phrases of german and rely heavily on a translator to just make the basic of communication between us. Adding an extra language or three is not going to help this. Yes, you can now speak and plot so none will know what you are doing. But you will not be helping the "Play together" part of this RP game. I think it is a bad idea.
Last edited by Hew Keenaxe on Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Seajiha
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Seajiha »

But is not about adding them, they are already in the game. Its about how they are displayed. Even now you couldn't communicate with a player using a race language you shouldn't understand. I'm not planning to add twenty new languages only a few chosen ones are able to speak. Also this is not about adding more real languages like spanish.

If you are against race languages in general, you would propose to change the current game to remove them altogether. Are you doing this?
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

I guess I am. We normally have fewer than 30 players online at any time. I dont think it is needed to divide them more. I think we should find ways to include them instead.
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Achae Eanstray »

I like b.1 and b.3 the best. But would accept any way that languages are again in game. Speaking another language was quite fun when roleplayed right. I think the fun was removed when others could also "learn" that language so would like to make it where that would be impossible to do.

I see racial language as an in game issue... the player decides to speak this or not, it is a purposeful roleplay and can generate a lot of interesting situations. If a character wishes to be understood, the player can adjust their "accent" to do that. Thanks to the translators help we can be assured oocly that our roleplay can be partially understood most of the time.. IF we wish.

My mage spent a couple of months learning ancient and that was very enjoyable, however I am of mixed feelings about the idea of ancient being brought back at this time.. will leave that to others.
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Jupiter
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Jupiter »

I see racial language as an in game issue...
Correct. I have a character who gets always pissed when mages start to talk ancient around him and he doesn't understand a word. As a player, I would love if I really wouldn't know what they are saying at that moment.
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Mephistopheles »

Q-wert wrote:Judging from the past I say that one can't expect people to keep ooc knowledge only nebulously marked as such ooc. In regards of language I've seen very good roleplayers going "Hey, my human character heard a lot lizards hissing at each other, of course he understands what these guys are speaking of.". As long as it is openly seen for everyone and the (rather reasonable)"if you can do/see it in the engine, you can do it"-rule applies, characters will magically understand foreign languages for very obscure reasons.

^ I agree with Jupiter, I don't want to see what I'm not supposed to.

Also the whole rule that if it works ig it's just fine rp is kinda shady way of putting things. There's alot of things that could have been "used" by the engine over the years, this just doesn't seem to be a respectful way to play and is very one sided. I could know disguised people and know what the mages are saying from the basement floor while they're whispering in ancient.. if thats okay rp then we have some very broken ideas of what rp is supposed to be.

Imo this is a poor attitude and creates large rifts. Please look at rp with a bit more respect than this, especially that of other's.
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Uhuru
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Uhuru »

I agree with Hew. We don't need more that divides the players.

I remember when we had all the different languages in game and never found a reason to like it or enjoy it as my characters were nearly always left out. From the end of those not included, it's not fun at all.

Hew is right. We need to find ways to bring people together more for fun in Illa, not enhance the divisions, which are already a problem.
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Banduk »

I like the idea with some restrictions.

I understand and share the fears of those who don't want to divide our small character base further. We have to take into consideration that having race specific languages plus ancient we have to handle at least 14 different languages, partially limited by ooc knowledge (German, English ...), partially controlled by IG settings.
On the other hand languages are a great feature making Illarion unique. It supports what Illarion is making for because it creates role specific properties.
Having the language feature can be abused like every other feature. Not having it is abused as well. So far I see more opportunities for having it.

Text encryption I like another way:
Word specific: There is a probability related to your language skill if you see the word or not. It has the charm nobody can be sure a spoken text is not understood by a low skilled listener. There might be even an (e.g.10%) chance a total unskilled listener understand a word. On the other hand even a char with better skills can miss a sentence completely by chance.

But the language feature is more than the encryption of the spoken text.
1. There has to be an appropriate way without asking a GM learning a language.
My idea would be some NPC teaching the language, maybe even the most NPC's get 2 or 3 steps of the language learning quest. So if you ask Bruno Blackhole you will learn something about dwarves and mining and Dwarvish. You can learn 1 point a day only. I know it's a lot of typing work but it is not difficult.
2. The capability of learning languages hast to be limited.
My idea would be INT*10+200 is the max skill count you can have for all languages. So a INT=9 character has 290 skill points, 100 common, 100 native and 90 to spread, maybe learning a single language almost perfect or two roughly half.
If the limit is reached and your char goes on learning, he/she will forget one point at any language where the skill is not 100. That way one could even switch from one language to another. But it takes time. The whole system controls itself and need no GM or staff action.
3. We have a number of books. What's with these items? For the moment all books are written in Common. Do we want to have language specific books like pre VBU?
Having it we could think about gimmicks like a detailed book about mining in Dwarf plus a shorter, maybe not 100% correct translation to Common.
For the beginning it should be ok if books are not touched.
4. Coming along are translation potions and other ways to understand for a dedicated time more or less than usual.
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Seajiha
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Seajiha »

I like your idea Banduk. First on the four points you listed:
1. There has to be an appropriate way without asking a GM learning a language.
I think your idea how to learn languages is a good one. It may be much typing work, but this would make at least some of the town npcs a bit less generic than they currently are. I also wanted to use books to learn a language. I agree, that there shouldn't be a GM involved.
2. The capability of learning languages hast to be limited.
Yes an INT is the way to go. Your idea to limit the skillpoints instead of number of languages sounds good and I hope it's possible to implement it that way.
3. We have a number of books. What's with these items? For the moment all books are written in Common. Do we want to have language specific books like pre VBU?
I'm not so sure on this point however. While it would be nice, this feature would actually reduce the content for players not speaking the language.
4. Coming along are translation potions and other ways to understand for a dedicated time more or less than usual.
As far as I can tell from the source code, the language potions still exist, they are currently just commented out. Would only take some minutes to "reimplement" them.

Now some questions:
- If I write a text in another language "My name is Carl" and I do not speak that language perfectly, do I see "My name is Carl" in the chat or the imperfect version (due to my skill) "Meso klang is Carl" ?
- Is it really a good idea to give someone with 100skill a chance to use the language wrong? In my opinion this would look like a typo.
- Did I understand it correctly that every language would have a list of words and for every word in your original sentence skill is tested VS chance? If skill is smaller than chance, the original word will be replaced by some word from the language list?

---

All in all on this topic:
There are currently three different types of opinions here:
1) Get the old language system back
2) Do not change the current system
3) Implement some sort of new system

There is no vast majority for any of these options - so I do not know what to do; therefore I hope the dev-group (not a single one but altogether :p) could maybe make a decision on this, as I think they know best, what's the best for their game and their players (And I think, players would accept such a decision more than my opinion, who's just a random guy here^^). Of course there is still room for discussion!
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Drugar Stonesmasher »

Would it be an option to replace full words and show full words?


I suppose when you do speak a language you either know a word or you dont.
Its not about understanding single letters.

I for myself do not like this random letter chaining...

What the result might look like is:

"This Dwarf is a greedy bastard but a decent smith"
"This ... ... a ... bastard ... ... ... smith" (skill 50% )

maybe it would be even possible to implement a "critical" chance, so with a critical success you understand the whole sentence (if chance is per sentence) or the correct word (if per word) and with a failure
there might be an replacement from a random word list - maybe something insulting.

also, maybe it would be a nice thing to make languages with different difficulties.
Liz and anc might be harder to learn than others, reducing the ability to learn others or beeing learned slower.
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Re: Race languages / Rassensprachen

Post by Ragorn »

Imo, the last proposal from Drugar is the best solution.

Also I would like the option box as proposed by qwert. If some remember, similar functionality was already there pre VBU and got lost with the new client.

Nevertheless, from the point of priority, implementing race languages ranks very low.
More important is, to get more player into the game, before again separating small groups via race langauages becomes useful and adds interesting role play options to that game. Currently, I do not really see much role play ingame, mostly single chars powergaming some skills.
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