Attribute Trainer Price

[Morbius]

Hello everyone,

This is part rant part proposal, so skip to the end if you get bored easily.

It's no secret that the cost of attribute re-distribution is fairly ridiculous. Lets be real here. I feel as if having a moderately high price is a sensible decision as it should prevent people from fully resetting their attributes as the notion strikes them. I get that. However doubling the cost each time seems... excessive. I am certain many players and perhaps even game master and developers would agree?

With the changes in the effectiveness of attributes since the VBU and the persisting lack of transparency regarding what each of them do exactly, it has left many of us older players with rather weak or ineffective characters. Probably new players too. Before anyone throws it at me: yes. I have seen the thread which provides a basic run down of what each attributes affects in terms to skill gain, and the basic descriptions provided in character creation... but it seems like there are always little inaccuracies or secrets to discover, and it really shouldn't be that way. In the character creator it say dexterity affects attack accuracy for example, and I have only recently found out that that is incorrect, and it is in fact only perception which affect attack accuracy. In the past it wasn't really a big deal and with high enough skills you could still get by with average or even poor attributes, but this is no longer the case unfortunately. Monsters are tougher, characters are weaker even with high skills and good gear, and you can't really solo content "easily" anymore. This may be a different story for heavily gemmed characters, but I am speaking from my personal experiences. There are probably about only a handful of active characters who would fall into this group anyhow.

Obviously I needn't mention the poor mages who have been particularly crippled by the aforementioned changes, and due to the obvious lack of magic and currently limited roles which they can effectively fill. They can't even learn alchemy while we wait for the magic system... sure it's probably a lore thing, but come on...

TL;DR:

I am admittedly somewhat unfamiliar with the exact value of the in game currency, but I would like to propose a fixed price of 50 gold per attribute point change. If this is unreasonable, let me know. Or proposing something different. But currently I am unsatisfied with paying 256 gold for a single attribute point alteration, and see no reason why this couldn't or shouldn't be changed.

I don't think I've ever seen that much gold in my life.

Regards,

~Morbius

[Azuros]

The cost to change attribute maxes out eventually at I think 128 gold. Not an unreasonable amount, imo.

[Lia]

unreasonable no. but Nearly. At that kind of money you have to come first. And for that you have to be either very good fighter or craftsmen.

[Morbius]

The cost to change attribute maxes out eventually at I think 128 gold. Not an unreasonable amount, imo.

Sorry I believe you are correct with that number. For some reason I thought it was a 256 gold cap. For a few minor changes you may very well deem that price reasonable... and I agree, it is certainly affordable... at first.

An example for you to consider: lets say I have reached the 128 gold cap. As a former mage, I have 18 willpower, but I want to take the maximum points possible out to re-invest elsewhere, (as it is now an entirely redundant stat, at least for now) which would be 14 points, as the racial minimum for humans is 4.

14 attribute changes at the maximum gold cap would set me back 1792 gold.

Lets say I want to change 14 more from my intelligence, then 14 more from my essence. (for a former mage, that wouldn't be unreasonable)

42 attribute changes.

That's 5376 gold.

As a mostly casual player, that is an impossible amount of gold for me to obtain. I do not believe the pricing is reasonable, and perhaps my 50 gold suggestion may even have been too generous.

[Morbius]

@ Lia

It is impossible to be a good fighter without the "correct" attributes (high/maxed out strength, agility, and constitution) or assistance of gems.

How am I supposed to earn gold through fighting to correct my attributes... if I don't have the correct attributes to be effective in a fight?

None of my characters are good crafters, so for me personally that isn't an option.

[GolfLima]

As a former mage, I have 18 willpower, but I want to take the maximum points possible out to re-invest elsewhere, (as it is now an entirely redundant stat, at least for now) which would be 14 points, as the racial minimum for humans is 4.

14 attribute changes at the maximum gold cap would set me back 1792 gold.

Lets say I want to change 14 more from my intelligence, then 14 more from my essence. (for a former mage, that wouldn't be unreasonable)

42 attribute changes.

* for such a dramatic / raducal change in attributes it would be better to contact a gm
* changing attributes should be the last way
* it should be expensive to change attributes - otherwise everyone would permanently create "superheros" for the task he have

[Q-wert]

* for such a dramatic / raducal change in attributes it would be better to contact a gme

Gms granted attribute changes were a one time offer for pre-vbu characters. This is not done anymore since trainer npcs are available.

In future, attributes that seem to be meaningless now will get a real use. I will not nurse all whiners that get pwned by mages with a blink because they all minimised willpower...

Proposals aiming at reducing the cost level for an attribute change once per month:

• ->Link to mine<-
  ->Link to another<-

They were not all too well received.


Edit: For money-reference: A maxed warrior character does make ~10 gold per hour, if they can fight high level, none mage monsters nonstop. In the best dungeons available the effective payout is about 5 gold per hour.

Edit2: Personally I think the proposed value for moving a single attribute point to still be quite high. Compared to the other online games I know, not a single one demands 10 hours of effort for changing 1/84th of your character build.
Such an amount of dedicated farming tends to get you a complete redo of your character in most of them.

[Grim]

Well, i don't see any reason to chance attributes so maytimes... except max first warrior/crafterskills and than magic/alchemie skills... ;

[CJK]

With the changes in the effectiveness of attributes since the VBU and the persisting lack of transparency regarding what each of them do exactly, it has left many of us older players with rather weak or ineffective characters.

Anybody who ever wants to know with 100% accuracy what attributes do and be immediately aware of the changes made with them in real time is perfectly welcome to read the relevant scripts at github.com/illarion-ev/illarion-content which are actually usually pretty readable even if you've never seen a programming language before in your life.


Anybody who is unable or unwilling to do this firsthand investigation is perfectly welcome to PM me any specific questions you have related to the details of our game mechanics. I'll happily let you know exactly how much faster or slower you learn based on your attributes, what sort of damage dampening your constitution is doing for you, and anything else you could possibly want to know that is within my power to get from public record.

EDIT: Here is my update on the state of attributes in Illarion http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 31#p702631

[Estralis Seborian]

Dear all,

thanks for the feedback related to attributes and attribute trainers. Note that the attribute trainers are meant to provide a mean for small attribute corrections like they were done manually by GMs in the past.

I have filed the following Mantis tickets, based on the feedback that the description of attributes during character creation is not 100 % accurate:

http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11385
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11386
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11387
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11388

Estralis

[Morbius]

* for such a dramatic / raducal change in attributes it would be better to contact a gme

Gms granted attribute changes were a one time offer for pre-vbu characters. This is not done anymore since trainer npcs are available.

I obviously missed out on the offer. All my characters are pre-vbu. I actually requested attribute changes via GM a multiple times since the VBU, but all have been denied. Later due to the reasoning that there is an NPC in game to take care of that now. It's probably petty, but it's the reason I stopped playing initially. I was frustrated, and still am to a degree. My mage character who I had literally poured years worth of hours into had redundant stats, and lost all magic seemingly overnight. So I lost motivation to play.

I get it's probably annoying for GMs to manually have to change attributes for dumb players who mess up their builds. It would annoy me too. GMs should be focused on story telling, not attribute crap.

I get that it's easier to just slap an npc in game. I do genuinely like the idea of the npc, I just don't think the prices are reasonable if the changes required are drastic. I touched on this before, but how can I be expected to 'grind for gold' if my attributes won't allow it. I wan't to role play, not spend hours alone in a hole filled with skeletons. (or whatever 'the best mob' is now days)

EDIT: Here is my update on the state of attributes in Illarion viewtopic.php?p=702631#p702631

That's an awesome break down. Thank you so much for providing that recourse Itgmkay.

[Achae Eanstray]

I have a mage character with the original stats. Can't fight or even leave town without someone to accompany. If running into a mob and alone.. a mage is sooooo out of luck! The cost is good for 1-2 points for fighters to adjust here and there.. prohibitive for a major adjustment. Some would say.. why not make another character with better stats? Due to roleplay issues another character may not be desirable even if there is space. There are other characters besides mages that may wish to change their stats i.e alchemists, fighters, crafters. There may also be some once magic returns too.

What about...
1. Having a money sink is great ..but reduce the money sink for attributes to a price others besides the very rich can do some major changes.
2. Possibly think of setting a limit of max 10-14 per attribute in a certain time frame, even a year.
3. As far as price we could even think of coin plus magical gems. This would provide a useful way to spend the gems some people are willing to sell or trade and a set amount per 1 change in attribute not to expand or double?

[Morbius]

What about...
1. Having a money sink is great ..but reduce the money sink for attributes to a price others besides the very rich can do some major changes.
2. Possibly think of setting a limit of max 10-14 per attribute in a certain time frame, even a year.
3. As far as price we could even think of coin plus magical gems. This would provide a useful way to spend the gems some people are willing to sell or trade and a set amount per 1 change in attribute not to expand or double?

I like where you're going with this...

This would probably be really hard or impossible to code but... what if...

You could train attributes?

For example: The more I use constitution related skills, the more opportunities become available for me to improve that attribute, and decrease another? If I read a lot of books, I have the option to increase my intelligence, and decrease another stat, and so on so forth.

If a character farms a lot they should become stronger or sturdier over time. Right? This would be a more realistic way to implement physiological changes over time.

Alternatively, what if the attribute trainer offered a one time total attribute reset for a hefty sum of gold? Then all other minor adjustments cost the same as they currently do in game?

[Achae Eanstray]

Maybe one time per year or so? There may be some major changes in game that would warrant a large change again?

Your idea of "training" attributes i.e. reading books for intelligence and other skills to train, would be a lot of fun if could script. Like you said, may be too hard. Hopefully a dev will let us know.

[Morbius]

Yeah, one full reset per year seems reasonable to me. Plus it would give you time to save your gold... No doubt everyone would want to return to their mage builds once magic (finally) arrives.

I didn't want to elaborate too heavily in case I was met with a big fat no, but it makes a lot of sense and would give more meaning to places such as libraries, or shrines - which could probably be used to train willpower. PLUS once the priest system comes in, actually sitting around praying would do something mechanically. I like it... but we'll see what the Devs say.

[Morbius]

I'm sorry, couldn't resist. Here are my ideas for what attribute changes could be made by carrying out the example actions:

Strength = Fighting skills such as slashing, wrestling, concussion. Walking around while encumbered?

Agility = Running around everywhere.

Constitution = Mining, farming, logging trees etc. Pretty much all the gathering skills. Time spent regenerating hit points?

Dexterity = All the crafting skills.

Intelligence = Reading books. Brewing potions? Quests - attending a ridiculously long and boring lecture by an old mage, get rewarded with intelligence. Could be repeatable monthly?

Willpower = Praying at alters, being hit by spells.

Perception = Using bows. Reading maps/locating treasure. Picking herbs, looking at potions through gems?

Essence = Casting spells and time spent regenerating mana. (once it's a thing) Until magic is implemented it's useless anyway.

[CJK]

I didn't want to elaborate too heavily in case I was met with a big fat no, but it makes a lot of sense and would give more meaning to places such as libraries, or shrines - which could probably be used to train willpower. PLUS once the priest system comes in, actually sitting around praying would do something mechanically. I like it... but we'll see what the Devs say.

Some parts of this has been quietly discussed and planned. The idea of small blessings for utilizing altars has a lot of potential, as long as it is done without being too over powered or conflicting with other systems. Feel free to PM me any ideas you come up with of benefits for interaction with the different gods.


As for having attributes increase by doing the things that benefit from those attributes, I see some dangers in creating a feedback loop like that.

[Morbius]

Some parts of this has been quietly discussed and planned. The idea of small blessings for utilizing altars has a lot of potential, as long as it is done without being too over powered or conflicting with other systems. Feel free to PM me any ideas you come up with of benefits for interaction with the different gods.

Cool. I sent you a PM with a couple of concepts.

As for having attributes increase by doing the things that benefit from those attributes, I see some dangers in creating a feedback loop like that.

You could be right there. I don't really know how it would need to be balanced to prevent that from happening... For it to 'work' though, I imagine (with my limited knowledge on coding and game design) that you would really only need a single task per attribute to provide players with the means of slowly improving their attributes over a period of time.

Maybe it could be something like...

The game prompts you after you have gained say.. 5 levels in a skill. If it's mining, it might say something along the lines of: "You have been working hard recently, and your body is starting to feel much stronger than before. Would you like to increase you constitution and decrease another attribute?"

Of course, that would make it difficult for players who are already highly, or completed maxed out in their skills. Alternatively, if the game could measure how long you had been carrying out a specific task and then deliver and attribute change prompt... maybe that would work better?

[Karrock]

Is only me have noticed that payments are lower after update? Can we also lower price of trainer?
From 128 to 64 or even less. From my couting it's now impossible to get 128 coins per one month even if you play non stop.

[Q-wert]

Is only me have noticed that payments are lower after update? Can we also lower price of trainer?
From 128 to 64 or even less. From my couting it's now impossible to get 128 coins per one month even if you play non stop.

Fighting still yields a net of about 5 gold per hour for a maxed character.
Judging from the replies from the developers, I assume the ~25 hours for one attribute point change from the 8th change on to be intentional.

Saying "There is a forum post about it and the code is open source, you are expected to know what you are doing when you are starting this game." might not be the best foundation for pricing attribute change, but it is how things are.
My personal recommendation for characters with skills <50 and need for attribute change is to delete and recreate them, it will cost you less time in the long run with trainer costs as they are.

[Hew Keenaxe]

I would love to change some attributes. Until recently, that was not even possible, being outlawed. Now I can, but it is still too much. So I can save up for it or just accept, Maybe Hew isn't perfect. I still may try for a point or three after some time, but am completely comfortable with not being the best. Just accept, pay or re-make. This game doesn't just need the best of us, but sometimes the worst. In many ways.

[Karrock]

Is only me have noticed that payments are lower after update? Can we also lower price of trainer?
From 128 to 64 or even less. From my couting it's now impossible to get 128 coins per one month even if you play non stop.

Fighting still yields a net of about 5 gold per hour for a maxed character.
Judging from the replies from the developers, I assume the ~25 hours for one attribute point change from the 8th change on to be intentional.

Char who is not maxed with fighting attributes won't defeat strongest monsters and now never get such a money. Nevermind we can lower payments from monsters drop then this would fit more to current state. No of my chars are strong enough to defeat them so I assume you're right.

To below: Can you stop writing things not related to sense of proposal? It's not about tip and tricks how to RP good, but about mechanics. And I would like to play strong "paladin", not a character to everything (nothing) and I lack now 1 point. And After magic update I will lack 4 more.

[Hew Keenaxe]

I cant defeat the top monsters, and dont want to be able too. Those should need a group to do. That being said, it is safe to say Hew has and can be a threat if he needs to be. He can still make a good living as a fighter though, or cause plenty of trouble. Being the best isnt needed. If you can save up for a pint or two, good for you. It should not be easy. Just attainable. If you cant, you dont need too. RP will take you a long way, even if you lose at the end. As for monsters, an easy living can be made of those you can kill.

[Mephistopheles]

There is a bug with high level weapons not dishing out the right damage as Estralis stated elsewhere. I'm sure it's frustrating but be patient they seem to be working hard to manage the new update.

[Karrock]

This is changed for now. It's possible to get almost 500 gold coins per real month if someone is smart enough and have much free time to play.
Thanks for your effort.

[Omarcomin]

As a new player increasingly discovering these 'extreme' goldsinks and timesinks in the game is really discouraging especially since I've also now discovered I built my character wrong again.

[Estralis Seborian]

Hi,

can you briefly describe in how far you build your character wrong? What did you expect to be able to do and cannot do? What can be improved about the game or character creation in order to help finding the right attributes to meet your expectations?

[Omarcomin]

The attributes at character creation are confusing, counter-intuitive, and affect the 'game' more than we probably want to admit. I don't want to seem overly negative and I do appreciate the depth of character creation this system attempts to create but in reality the depth really forces you to specialize and select stats that might not reflect the character you're creating.

'attributes' are OOC imo anyway but they do affect your enjoyment and ability to enjoy the game in some respects.

Take my first character: I wanted to create a skilled and dexterous fighter who uses speed and ability moreso than brute force to best his enemies. I chose attributes that reflect this identity and the result is a pretty terrible fighter because as it turns out... dexterity is not even a fighting stat but one that affects crafting. strength is the only attribute that dictates how much damage you do so low strength fighters are pointless, and hit chance is dictated by perception an attribute that in ever other RPG is the sole domain of theives and rogues. 19 constitution is also mandatory it seems for leveling fighting stats because without substantial regen you can't really fight things at a reasonable rate.

There's no disclaimer in character creation to warn you that these choices are effectively permanent - particularly for new players who dont have a million gold in the bank to respec.

My suggestion would be to simplify the attributes system, perhaps merge constitution and strength, and agility and dexterity. Alternatively create explicit tooltips in character creation that tells you exactly how stats will affect your character. Currently the tips are rather vague.

[Lia]

It is explained at each individual attribute for which it is important.

As for a fighter.

Strength . Influences how powerful the attack is
stamina - regeneration speed - defense
swiftness - How fast you can beat
agility - how good you are hit a attack
detection- how good you are hit a attack

I see no difficulty.

If you want to make a quick deftly fighter, then you focus on the right attributes.

The skill (armor , weapon, parry ) you have to work out anyway. You can not go with a new character on, and expect that he is coequal to long-time fighter characters.

The only point in which I agree with you is that it should really mention that the selection is final

[S'rrt]

I haven't created a new character in a long time but if a newbie with this level of articulation is telling us that the attributes aren't explained upon character creation and ended up going against his supposed character and RP, it must be true. Anyone who says the attributes are clearly explained somewhere is probably referring to a collection of forum posts, which isn't the place for a newbie to go and look for these things. The descriptions for attributes on your character profile page also do not reflect what the attributes do.

I know many of us have played the game long enough to learn our way around things and adapt to the numerous bugs/inconsistencies/confusing concepts that the game has, such as unexplained attributes, but that doesn't mean we can then project that "Everything is fine!"-mentality to others who are just joining the game. I would bet money that old players are more ignorant about the game's true issues than new players.