Skill countdown

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Teflon
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Skill countdown

Post by Teflon »

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 82#p701982

Based on the discussion above, I would like to discuss a countdown for skilling.

It sounds to me as the whole skilling system is still perceived as confusing. I feel as many players are not aware that it doesn't matter how often or how quickly you click but how much you play (and what you do while you play). For instance, it doesn't matter if you kill 1000 monsters or 1 monsters in one week. You will have the same progress. Your progress also depends on which monster you kill. A high skilled warrior will not learn from killing low-level monsters. I am not sure if killing these low-level monsters as high skilled warrior will affect your MC. Maybe a Dev can provide clarification on that.

However, in the past, you could see your progress and you did know, if you kill additional 100 red skeletons you will get the next skill. This isn't the case any longer. It might be that 1 red skeleton is enough because of a low MC or that 1000 don't change anything because of a high MC. So, I was thinking, we should probably visualize the progress. I don't know if it is possible but maybe we should add a countdown to each skill that shows how long you will have to play in order to get the next skill. I could imagine that this increases the incentive for those who are serious about skilling their characters. At least it would take the frustration since you would know, okay it will take me x hours playing time to get my next skill regardless if I click 100.000 or just 100 times.

What are your thoughts?
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Karrock
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by Karrock »

It's not a problem how is hard or how is easy to max fighting skills. Currently if someone has a only goal to max his fighting skills then after completion this goal he has nothing to do and can quit game. I would rather see an upgrade of this system of workers-crafters-fighters. Monsters should drop items which would be necessary in craft. Undeads could drop bone-dust in example, bandits could drop schemes. Etc.
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Lia
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by Lia »

Ich finde die idee interessant.

Zumal ich denke das es wirklich helfen könnte für Jene die immer noch im Hinterkopf haben. "Ich skill nicht weil meinen MC zu hoch sind" oder dergleichen.



---------------------------------------

I find the idea interesting.

Especially since I think that could really help it for those who still have in mind. "I skill not because my MC are too high" or the like
thebigbear
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by thebigbear »

OK, I'm not understanding skill progress. Teflon would have me believe that if I kill 1 rat or 100 rats in 1 week's time, I will progress the same amount in my chosen weapon of Cleric's staff. Karrock would suggest that I need kill "something" to advance as a farmer. To which all of this doesn't make any sense at all.

If I kill one rat, it can't be as significant as killing a hundred rats. And why must a kill some creature to learn to plant and harvest wheat? Keeping it in line with anything close to real life, if I kill one rat, I kill one rat. If I kill a hundred rats, I am a rat-killer and taking the chances of being severely wounded and potentially killed by plague or some other disease! Also, what the hell do I need to kill and how many, to grow wheat? Maybe weed killer or some pesticide, but that's out of context with the game time-line of roughly medieval times.
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Athlon
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by Athlon »

Nachdem ich es mir übersetzt habe , möchte ich sagen das mir der Vorschlag Gedanke oder was auch immer auch gut gefällt .

Da nicht jeder den Englischen Beiträgen und Diskussionen folgen kann , ist etwas das man im Spiel von Haus aus findet eine feine Sache , also ganz klar für den Vorschlag .
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Karrock
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by Karrock »

thebigbear wrote:Karrock would suggest that I need kill "something" to advance as a farmer. To which all of this doesn't make any sense at all.
Where I suggested this?

Currently if you want to raise any skill you must to focus after reach MC on thing which concentrate your energy (makes your char active, not in AFK) but gives you no experience. Like rp or doing works/crafts/fights lower than lvl you have. Like gathering apples when you have higher than 20 lvl in farming.
Teflon
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by Teflon »

thebigbear wrote:OK, I'm not understanding skill progress. Teflon would have me believe that if I kill 1 rat or 100 rats in 1 week's time, I will progress the same amount in my chosen weapon of Cleric's staff. Karrock would suggest that I need kill "something" to advance as a farmer. To which all of this doesn't make any sense at all.

If I kill one rat, it can't be as significant as killing a hundred rats. And why must a kill some creature to learn to plant and harvest wheat? Keeping it in line with anything close to real life, if I kill one rat, I kill one rat. If I kill a hundred rats, I am a rat-killer and taking the chances of being severely wounded and potentially killed by plague or some other disease! Also, what the hell do I need to kill and how many, to grow wheat? Maybe weed killer or some pesticide, but that's out of context with the game time-line of roughly medieval times.
Exactly, your skill gain doesn't depend on how often you click (kill, gather, create) but on how much time you spend active in the game. Idling (being ooc) will not help you. Thus, you can smith 100 swords or 1 sword, you will have the same skill gain after one week playing. The sword must fit to your skill level.

You, however, don't need to kill any creature to learn plant and harvest wheat. The action has to be related to the skill.

Please don't compare RL to game mechanics. If we would apply this, you would need to lose skills after some time if you don't repeat the respective action appropriate for instance.
thebigbear
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by thebigbear »

Karrock said: "Monsters should drop items which would be necessary in craft. Undeads could drop bone-dust in example, bandits could drop schemes."

Farming is a craft, right? What monster would or should support my craft of farming by dropping something?

Teflon said: "you can smith 100 swords or 1 sword, you will have the same skill gain after one week playing."

By playing this game as I understand it, if I craft 1 sword I'm pretty sure I'm NOT going to advance a level in one week. OTOH, if I craft 100 swords I 'might' advance a level of blacksmithing in one week.

So...I'm still not understanding something about game mechanics as presented in this thread. Sorry if I'm slow or just inexperienced with the game, but I'd really like to better understand what I'm doing.
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Vern Kron
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by Vern Kron »

I get your confusion here.

When it comes to farming:
To increase your farming, you plant seeds, you harvest crops or seeds, and up until level 20, you can collect fruit.

Teflon's idea was to provide a clear benchmarks for people to see 'Oh, this is how much time I need to play, or amount of work I need to do, before I gain another skill level.'

Karrock proposed that skills themselves are not an interesting and worthy goal, and that the combat and monster systems should be integrated to make learning new things crafting wise more of a journey, involving trade with warriors, rather than just developing the skills themselves. (Sort of like how in single player games, you sometimes have to collect loot from monsters, or discover a recipe from an npc, before you can use it.) This is not the current state of the game.

The current game development works as follows:

If you would like to increase a skill, you need to use it. You can use it a lot, and get some decreasing return for using skills, or you can use skills rarely, and get a larger return, but in 'big chunks' rather than bit by bit of continual usage.
The theory is that no matter what option you choose, you would end up learning at the same pace.

The debate you are seeing being addressed is dealing with the perception that 'continued use, slow gain', is actually too slow, in comparison to 'rare use, big gain', which results in people trying to game the system. Some players (myself included), have informal ideas and tactics of working with the system, but the effectiveness of that is actually based on the person's own perception and amount they enjoy the system they have in place.

TL:DR
Farm as you would like, if you farm a lot, you will perceive getting results in smaller amounts short term, than if you farmed only occasionally (along with other skill usage). Over a longer period of time, in theory, your skill gain will be similar no matter how you go about it, as long as you consistently play the game.
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Karrock
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by Karrock »

thebigbear wrote:Karrock said: "Monsters should drop items which would be necessary in craft. Undeads could drop bone-dust in example, bandits could drop schemes."

Farming is a craft, right? What monster would or should support my craft of farming by dropping something?
Farming is not a craft. It's resources skill. Cook (and others skills when you get finished items) is craft.
Besides you don't have to kill anything in game. You can buy ingredients. And this buying is main fundament of this theoretical idea.
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GolfLima
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by GolfLima »

Karrock wrote:thebigbear hat geschrieben:
Karrock said: "Monsters should drop items which would be necessary in craft. Undeads could drop bone-dust in example, bandits could drop schemes."
:arrow: the problem is that fighters do not need crafters - fighters can all they need get from their dead enemies
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Such a countdown is, technically and principally, not possible. Just imagine you decide never ever to do a skill related action again.
thebigbear
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by thebigbear »

There's an old expression I learned long ago: "Every attempt to clarify will only confuse somebody else." Hence, we have GolfLima: "the problem is that fighters do not need crafters - fighters can all they need get from their dead enemies." OK, so how does a new fighter gain weapons, armor, and food, if not for making or growing it, or buying it from a crafter? Fighters can't successfully fight high-level monsters--they have to start with rats and slimes like everybody else. You won't gain much food, weapons or armor fighting rats and such. So fighters have to start as crafters in the beginning and it takes a good long while before a fighter is good enough to kill monsters they can harvest for food and weapons, yes?

By the way--thank you all for being patient with me while I ask questions and thank you for answering the questions I do ask.
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Sammy Goldlieb
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by Sammy Goldlieb »

A new fighter gets the qeapons from his starter pack. All the other weapons he gets from enemies. I tried it with a new charcter of me. It is lvl 80 on slashing now and I never bought a single Piece of Equipment, all I got from enemies or maps.
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GolfLima
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Re: Skill countdown

Post by GolfLima »

Sammy Goldlieb wrote:A new fighter gets the qeapons from his starter pack. All the other weapons he gets from enemies. I tried it with a new charcter of me. It is lvl 80 on slashing now and I never bought a single Piece of Equipment, all I got from enemies or maps.
:arrow: there is nothing more to say
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