Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Here you can make and discuss suggestions to improve the game. / Hier kannst du Vorschläge einreichen und diskutieren um das Spiel zu verbessern.

Moderator: Developers

Locked
LucyP
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:24 am

Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by LucyP »

Current:
  • Step 1-collect wood (wood cutting skill)
    Step 2-collect coarse sand (mining skill)
    Step 3-make potash from wood (woodcutting skill, to level 20)
    Step 4-make quartz sand from coarse sand (mining skill, to level 100)
    Step 5-make glass ingot from potash and quartz sand (glass blowing skill)
    Step 6-make glass item (bottle etc.) from glass ingots (glass blowing skill)
To summarize, each resource needs processing before it can be used to make glass and there are 3 skills required to learn at the same time to make glass items. The only place where MC cools is during the few minutes that the character burns wood.

I propose to change this so it is more in line with other crafts. For example, lets look at the main resources and steps for smithing…
  • Step 1-collect iron ore (mining skill)
    Step 2-collect coal (mining skill)
    Step 3-produce iron ingots (smithing skill to level 20)
    Step 4-smith items from iron ingots (smithing skill)
Notice there is no preprocessing of the ore or coal. No cleansing or sifting. And only 2 skills are required.
Again, this is for the main resources. MC cools during the long time spent smelting all the ore.

Proposal for glass:
  • Step 1-collect potash from old fire pits (mining skill to level 20)
    Step 2-collect quartz sand from sand pits (mining skill)
    Step 3-make glass ingots from potash and quartz sand (glass blowing skill)
    Step 4-make glass items from glass ingots (glass blowing skill)
This would reduce the steps to 4 and reduce the skills required to 2, which is more in line with other processes. MC would cool while potash is being collected.
Applesauce
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:40 am

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Applesauce »

This makes lots of sense. Simplify it. More of a direct path to the final product. But...
I play a glass blower. I like the complexity of it. I do wish the prices of the effort were better reflected though.
Glass items are way too cheap. With the effort involved, all glass items should cost more at the town traded level. This gives us craftsmen a chance to make a living.
User avatar
Alyssa El'anir
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:08 pm

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Alyssa El'anir »

With the big crafting update, prices of glassblown items will change. The end goal is to make all crafts profitable. Glassblowing will also be split into glassblowing skill and pottery skill, so vases won't be part of it anymore. If you want a deeper look at this, check out the opensource as there is already a folder where the "new" skill trees are being added to there under content and crafts. There is also a few mantis tasks on the matter, although certain parts are hidden away on the developer forum so a developer might know more when they come around to read this. Maybe they will comment?
User avatar
Estralis Seborian
Posts: 12308
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
Location: Sir Postalot
Contact:

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Here is the link to the mentioned scripts. They are very easy to read as clear names instead of obscure IDs are used. Note that the scripts are drafts and not finalised.

https://github.com/Illarion-eV/Illarion ... /craft/new

I also think we can simplify glassblowing a little. The sieving step appears superfluous. However, we need to keep in mind that crafts should not be optimised to some MC strategy. Removal of immersive steps bears a big risk to make the game dull and generic. Tailoring id another complex craft with these steps:

1. Shearing of wool
2. Weaving of grey cloth
3. Gathering ingredients for dye
4. Make dye (plus get water)
5. Dye cloth
6. Make thread
7. Tailor

However, these steps are pretty immersive and removing too many of them would make tailoring less complex and less fun for many players I guess.

Regardless of the number of steps, most important (also for MC) is how much time you spend until you have the final product. So we can have e. g. two simple, fast steps or one long and the effort is the same. I'd generally go for the first option as a player. With the crafting update, the time for each production step will be scaled by the price of the product. And prices will be completely revised to reflect this approach.

I take the action to evaluate how we can simplify glassblowing without losing desired complexity and immersion. I am very interested in any opinions on this topic!
Applesauce
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:40 am

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Applesauce »

Personally, I do not want to lose the complexity of any skill. I think they all are a bit simple. I love the Art of glassblowing. I do wish it could be a viable way to make a living though. For me, as a glassblower, I would just adjust the cost of glass. Not reduce it's complexity.
User avatar
Azure Lynch
Galmair
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 5:24 pm
Location: Lost in my mind
Contact:

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Azure Lynch »

Honestly I like glassblowing the way it is. It can develop trade for carpenter. Need wood pay or trade with a carpenter and ask them to potash them for you. Then that leaves two skills. Being used. There are options out there. Use them. Simplicity can take away from the rp. Post that you are looking for.potash or wood and see what happens.
LucyP
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:24 am

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by LucyP »

If you look at time spent in each step, hours are spent collecting resources and refining them, basically learning the wrong skills... then it takes only a few minutes to make the glass and produce a product, where a character learns the right skill. By this time, learning is much slower due to such high MC.

My character spends three days collecting materials and refining them. It takes less than a day to make the glass and use it.

Also, the time to make the first few items learned in the glassblowing craft, all are just a few seconds. You blow through the glass making bottles, which very few people need, and learn very little in the process.

Reducing the number of skills people are forced to learn would help alleviate some of the pain of learning this skill.
LucyP
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:24 am

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by LucyP »

Azure Lynch wrote:Honestly I like glassblowing the way it is. It can develop trade for carpenter. Need wood pay or trade with a carpenter and ask them to potash them for you. Then that leaves two skills. Being used. There are options out there. Use them. Simplicity can take away from the rp. Post that you are looking for.potash or wood and see what happens.
A beginner craftsman has no ability to purchase any of his main resources.
LucyP
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:24 am

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by LucyP »

Estralis Seborian wrote: Tailoring id another complex craft with these steps:

1. Shearing of wool
2. Weaving of grey cloth
3. Gathering ingredients for dye
4. Make dye (plus get water)
5. Dye cloth
6. Make thread
7. Tailor
How many of these steps are tailoring skills and how many are other skills? And how many hours are spent preprocessing items vs. using them? So, weaving of cloth and making thread, count as using resources. Everything prior to that in terms of time vs everything after.
User avatar
Azure Lynch
Galmair
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 5:24 pm
Location: Lost in my mind
Contact:

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Azure Lynch »

LucyP wrote:
Azure Lynch wrote:Honestly I like glassblowing the way it is. It can develop trade for carpenter. Need wood pay or trade with a carpenter and ask them to potash them for you. Then that leaves two skills. Being used. There are options out there. Use them. Simplicity can take away from the rp. Post that you are looking for.potash or wood and see what happens.
A beginner craftsman has no ability to purchase any of his main resources.
Then trade. I have a character that doesn't make coin. But trades goods for goods. For example if you need wood find someone that may need oil bottles or other bottles. Brew makers need bottles. There are people that will trade goods for goods. Before saying something needs fixed rp it IG see what happens post it at the hempty.
LucyP
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:24 am

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by LucyP »

Azure Lynch wrote:
LucyP wrote:
Azure Lynch wrote:Honestly I like glassblowing the way it is. It can develop trade for carpenter. Need wood pay or trade with a carpenter and ask them to potash them for you. Then that leaves two skills. Being used. There are options out there. Use them. Simplicity can take away from the rp. Post that you are looking for.potash or wood and see what happens.
A beginner craftsman has no ability to purchase any of his main resources.
Then trade. I have a character that doesn't make coin. But trades goods for goods. For example if you need wood find someone that may need oil bottles or other bottles. Brew makers need bottles. There are people that will trade goods for goods. Before saying something needs fixed rp it IG see what happens post it at the hempty.
And how do they get the first load of wood? Before making bottles or having coin?
User avatar
Estralis Seborian
Posts: 12308
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
Location: Sir Postalot
Contact:

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Estralis Seborian »

It should be noted that crafting times for final products will increase so the gathering vs. crafting disparity won't be severe anymore. This is btw not a glassblowing topic but a general aspect.

But let's not focus on skilling and MC topics. Otherwise, we end up with a endless discussion without conclusion as everyone plays the game differently. Let us come back to the original point: Is it generally desirable to reduce the complexity of the glassblowing product cycle from coarse sand to bottle? Is sieving sand increasing the immersion or is it just annoying work no one enjoys?
User avatar
Alyssa El'anir
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:08 pm

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Alyssa El'anir »

Estralis Seborian wrote:It should be noted that crafting times for final products will increase so the gathering vs. crafting disparity won't be severe anymore. This is btw not a glassblowing topic but a general aspect.

But let's not focus on skilling and MC topics. Otherwise, we end up with a endless discussion without conclusion as everyone plays the game differently. Let us come back to the original point: Is it generally desirable to reduce the complexity of the glassblowing product cycle from coarse sand to bottle? Is sieving sand increasing the immersion or is it just annoying work no one enjoys?
Can we get a poll vote on those? Id be interested in seeing the result of that.
User avatar
Azure Lynch
Galmair
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 5:24 pm
Location: Lost in my mind
Contact:

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Azure Lynch »

LucyP wrote:
Azure Lynch wrote:
LucyP wrote:
A beginner craftsman has no ability to purchase any of his main resources.
Then trade. I have a character that doesn't make coin. But trades goods for goods. For example if you need wood find someone that may need oil bottles or other bottles. Brew makers need bottles. There are people that will trade goods for goods. Before saying something needs fixed rp it IG see what happens post it at the hempty.
And how do they get the first load of wood? Before making bottles or having coin?
Simple they deliver the wood and wait. It's called trade. Or they deliver the wood then afterwards you deliver the bottles. It will come down to whether your character is honest. But if done right benefits both. Try it it is good for rp.
User avatar
Azure Lynch
Galmair
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 5:24 pm
Location: Lost in my mind
Contact:

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Azure Lynch »

Estralis Seborian wrote:It should be noted that crafting times for final products will increase so the gathering vs. crafting disparity won't be severe anymore. This is btw not a glassblowing topic but a general aspect.

But let's not focus on skilling and MC topics. Otherwise, we end up with a endless discussion without conclusion as everyone plays the game differently. Let us come back to the original point: Is it generally desirable to reduce the complexity of the glassblowing product cycle from coarse sand to bottle? Is sieving sand increasing the immersion or is it just annoying work no one enjoys?
I like shieving sand once you get it to a certain. Level it quits skilling so I becomes an action that can lower MC. I think the problem is the woodcutting then turning it to potash. Maybe be away to get ash out the campfires. I know ig they never go out. But that means there should be alot of ash in them a shovel should get ash out of there or maybe out the glassblowing over. Theoretically they run on something that would produce ash. Just some thoughts. If you want to change or lose a step.
User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by GolfLima »

LucyP wrote:And how do they get the first load of wood? Before making bottles or having coin?

:arrow: my char often gives gifts to new chitizen - most of the time in form of materials or tools
:arrow: and often he trade goods for goods ( he seldom sale for coins ) ..... ( also giving some goods and wait a longer time for the "payment" in form of other goods ) ==> a note at the traiding board would help sometimes
LucyP
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:24 am

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by LucyP »

I am also looking at the time to pre-process all the resources. It takes a while to sift sand. It doesn't take quite as long to make the potash, but it does take a while to collect the logs.

Also have to look at the location of where the sand holes are. It all adds time.

And again, sifting and digging, learning the wrong skills. Why are three skills necessary? Does any other craft demand the learning of three skills for the hardcore basic resource gathering and use? As I said, days to gather everything and pre-process. And then the bottles everyone does want takes 3 ingots of glass each. So 1,000 ingots of glass goes very quickly.
User avatar
Azure Lynch
Galmair
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 5:24 pm
Location: Lost in my mind
Contact:

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Azure Lynch »

We gave you options on how to avoid skilling and shifting sand does not take that long unless your attribute is to low. So take it how it lays. Azure is a glass crafter. And has no problem. And he just started not to long ago. It don't take but a hour to complete all the tasks. Now if you have a big order than yeah look for it to take awhile as with most craft. Smithing depending on what you make requires woodcutting, carpentry, mining and smithing.
User avatar
Evie
Developer
Posts: 1210
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:55 pm
Location: on a mana stream

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Evie »

Azure Lynch wrote:We gave you options on how to avoid skilling and shifting sand does not take that long unless your attribute is to low. So take it how it lays. Azure is a glass crafter. And has no problem. And he just started not to long ago. It don't take but a hour to complete all the tasks. Now if you have a big order than yeah look for it to take awhile as with most craft. Smithing depending on what you make requires woodcutting, carpentry, mining and smithing.

there is no learning cap right now on sieving sand. You learn til mining is 100.
User avatar
Estralis Seborian
Posts: 12308
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
Location: Sir Postalot
Contact:

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Estralis Seborian »

So there are no other concerns and arguments than skilling? While skills are of course an aspect of Illarion, didn't Illarion used to be about more?

I'll check today the added value of the sieving step from a monetary point of view. It is immersive, that is clear. With higher prices for the final products and longer final crafting times and hence, more skillgain per product, are there arguments besides skilling that speak for removing the sieving step?
User avatar
Alyssa El'anir
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:08 pm

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Alyssa El'anir »

I vote for not removing it. It's immersive and I like it. That's why I'm curious about how many if we did a poll would agree or not.
User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by GolfLima »

Azure Lynch wrote: Smithing depending on what you make requires woodcutting, carpentry, mining and smithing.
:arrow: Keep in mind: for high level smithing goods you need
1) iron / copper / silver / gold / merinium - ingots
2) sometimes handles
3) gems and / or gemdust
4) clothes and / or leather / fur
==> so you need a lot more than mining and smithing skill if you make all things youreself (gemcutting / herblore / tailoring - may be wood cutting / carpentry) --> may be you need 7 skills to make a produkt
User avatar
Kamilar
Posts: 732
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:53 pm
Location: Running away

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Kamilar »

Estralis Seborian wrote:So there are no other concerns and arguments than skilling? While skills are of course an aspect of Illarion, didn't Illarion used to be about more?

Without turning this into a discussion on powergaming and knowing you don't like criticism of the MC system or the heavy focus on skills, this is the current reality of Illarion. Skills have become a much larger focus than they were in the old client partly because of MC and partly because of skill specific equipment. You can't use that max level gear until you've maxed the skill. If you want to max the skill for that boss equipment, you have to pay attention to MC. Even more so now that the bug has been fixed and you feel the malus of gear above your character's level. We all live with it because that's just how it is.

Personally, I don't do any crafting. I would be the player most likely to max my resource gathering skills before starting any crafting skills specifically because of the issues raised in this thread. I was far more likely in the old client to dabble in crafting because the learning cap was temporary and it made the game more flexible.

One girl's opinion.
LucyP
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:24 am

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by LucyP »

Kamilar wrote: I would be the player most likely to max my resource gathering skills before starting any crafting skills specifically because of the issues raised in this thread.
Interesting point. Maxing two resource gathering skills is difficult, taking a long while. And it is hard for someone excited to get started learning a skill to wait, though I do know many max the one gathering skill first. But two? *sighs*

And yes, I understand other items are used in the production of smithed items, but they are not used in seriously high volumes as the main resources, the ores and coal. And they are not needed to begin learning the smithing trade. At least I do not think they are. So some money can be made and trades made for some of these items. Not all have to be produced by a beginner just starting out in the craft.
User avatar
Alyssa El'anir
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:08 pm

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Alyssa El'anir »

This drifts off the main topic, so if you're only interested in glassblowing move on from this post:
Kamilar wrote:Skills have become a much larger focus than they were in the old client
On that note. In the old client there were lots of roads and forests between settlements free from monsters. This allowed you to play a non-fighting character better without being stuck to towns and portals. This is one of the things that made skilling more prominent, it being required to walk about the world outside of the towns "safe" zones. This is one thing that encourages powergaming.

Another point is that since we are split into three towns, and due to the gems and crafting tool distributions forced to split between them instead of gathering in one town like trollsbane in the past (That most players gathered in bane, I think proved that if you give the players the choice , they will move to a big central town with all tools, while few stay on more remote settlements like varshikar and tol vanima.).
This split, as well as high level dungeons being far away from towns, make it so that players have a harder time finding RP. What do they do then? They turn to the engine aspect and start power-gaming, in order to stay active. For some this becomes an obsession and they end up favoring it over RP, some do it as a past time while waiting for RP, and some end up growing so tired of the whole system that they leave the game. (A recent example was the p.o. Ashbell/Renoah).

Myself I enjoy the current MC system, and am one of those that have grown fond of grinding while I wait for RP to appear, though it can get a little too much.
I do however understand why those who complain do. If I had less time to spend on the game than I do I'd probably not be willing to put up with the engine-aspects of it, and if I was not so attached to the playerbase that I am, I'd end up like Renoah seeking out a more pen and paper esque roleplaying game.

To be a bit constructive though..
From what I understand, three towns are there to stay in hopes of a larger playerbase one day, so I won't try and suggest to remove that.
As to the MC. I like it better than the old system, but it's still a flawed concept as is. I'm not sure if it just needs to be worked on, or be changed. But I dont think the old system or the one now in its current state are the right ones yet for an RP focused game like ours. Still. In my opinion our system for it now is a step in the right direction compared to what was in the past.

I imagine safe walking paths between towns could be made via player events over the years to come, but even this wouldn't really solve the problem. Remember the peaceful woods south of bane stretching all the way to the harbor, and settlements like the farmers union? You had plenty of choices as a non-fighter back then, I didn't truly take up the mantle of a fighter character until post-vbu, and first then after months of being stuck in town growing tired of all the people leaving me by my lonesome cause they were going out doing whatever, and my character would've died immediately if she came with. Personally I've never been fond of the fighter-RP, duels, spars and such, but it's become somewhat of a must to wield a weapon in post-vbu illa.

So for players being so split. Maybe a system can be thought out, so players know where to go for RP? Like.. If there are 5 players online, and three are in the galmair safezone or within galmair itself, then a system that tracks this and lets players know that the "largest amount of non-afk characters are currently gathered in the vicinity of Galmair" so people atleast have a general idea of where to seek out RP? I dont know if this exact idea would be possible, but I assume people would get what Im getting at with that example.

I like how skilling is extended over a certain amount of time no matter if you RP or skill all day. However since the system favors those with most time to play, over those who have little, I see why those with little time are upset that we went away from the old system. The old system would still favor those with most time, but it wouldn't punish those with little time as hard as it currently does. However I think MC wouldn't be this much of an obsession if it was not as I mentioned more or less "required" to have a fighting skill to be able to participate in a lot of RP. Hell, most quests both GM made and player made are fighting-based. (Though I really enjoy quests like the ones lucy-p has been doing that are purely RP based!).

It's easy enough to be a crafter. You can gather food from trees, gather resource inside the safe zone, easily enough gain the skill level in crafts to make your own tools and be entirely self sufficient that way. That ignoring the fact that players literally throw free tools and stuff at new characters that show willingness to RP. Sure, you level a lot of skills in the process that you didn't necessarily intend to level, but that ain't bad as leveling is supposed to take time. (In this Im ignoring how you spend a lot more time gathering mats than crafting, since they intend to fix this with the big craft update by extending craft time and by doing so also how much xp each item you craft gives).
I think the bad thing is that you are basically forced to fight, 3 skills that raise your mc, to actively partake in much of the RP and events that goes on.

Maybe if fighting and crafting/gathering/etc mc was split into two different pools, so you had one for fighting/magic and one for any peaceful skilling? Yes this would end up with people "metagaming" switching between the two, but we already do that in a way by doing actions we know will reduce our MC (like melting at level 20 smithing) in order to lower our MC when no people are around to RP with. We would just need to find a balance to make up for this, so skilling wont necessarily become that much faster, like making the MC go up a slight bit faster but go down as slow as currently?

As for the high end dungeons I mentioned, Ive before talked about the option to have an attunement of sorts. Think of the quest made by Evie outside of Galmair, the cave with the lizards. There you reach a quest status that allows you to leave the small island in the end repeatedly. Now, imagine that system being activated through a questline in a high-end dungeon, which allows you to use a tool or similar to get a quick-transport there from a point that is near town. No need to make one back since portal books exist. This would decrease travel time (yes I know mage portals plan to do that but this is also a way), so that players would have more time on their hands to get stuff done and then also this would result in people returning to town faster and being away for less time. There already exists the portal pedestal by the runewick quest that teleports you around and youre stuck until you beat it or die (wonder..something? The name eludes me right now). I was told this could be scripted to serve the function of only allowing you to use it if you have a specific quest-status.
What I imagine is something like the defensors in akaltuts cave, once you get to say the point where you get the special reward(wont write it cause spoilers), you could also get an attunement to fast travel there through, maybe a pedestal in town by the bounty hunter? Youve already proven plenty of times by then that you are capable of walking there by yourself, but doing so makes you miss out on a lot of RP or waste a lot of time when theres no one to RP with and you dont have a lot of time to play.

No tl:dr, if youre in the proposal forum you should expect long texts :p
Anyways, thats all I have the energy to put down on paper right now. English is not my first language so some points may be unclear and Id be happy to clarify what exactly I meant by them. Im trying to be constructive here, not trying to upset anyone or insult anyones dev work. All this is just my opinion, Im not trying to state anything but technical stuff as facts. :)
User avatar
Azure Lynch
Galmair
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 5:24 pm
Location: Lost in my mind
Contact:

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Azure Lynch »

Alyssa El'anir wrote:I vote for not removing it. It's immersive and I like it. That's why I'm curious about how many if we did a poll would agree or not.

i 2nd what aly wrote
User avatar
Estralis Seborian
Posts: 12308
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
Location: Sir Postalot
Contact:

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Monster spawns will be revised, see http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11265.

My monetary assessment shows that sieving adds value to the sand and hence, is not a superfluous step. Still, it could be removed but then you'd have to spend more time digging for sand to generate the same value. I rather have two short, immersive actions than one long one, but that's my personal opinion and I am open for arguments.

I'll see what I can do to make the price staging in glass blowing more favourable on higher levels. We just lack real high end products with a use.
LucyP
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:24 am

Re: Proposed Changes to Glassblowing

Post by LucyP »

Could we make sieving like other things and have the learning cap out at level 20?
Locked