Magical gem system (Changes)

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Karrock
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Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Karrock »

Karrock wrote:Better erase magical gems system or add nectie inn in this system (because it's highly against characters who live there and forces everyone to "good". Taxes were never be a problem for me. I can pay even I don't get anything.)
Same like in quote. These system really disturbing to create any strong guild in wilderness and discourage new players or rare playing players to play.
Forcing to play regulary is not honest.

I call everyone to mindstorm how to change this or improve.
Kraex
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Kraex »

Magic gems need to go or be drastically changed, but the problem currently is that the magical gems keep players bound to factions. Until there is another method to achieve the same result I imagine they will stay. Guilds in the wild will not influence this decision IMO, in fact I think it will be one of the main reasons to keep them. The depth and effort that has been put into the faction system must be maintained but altered to allow independent guilds to form within their ranks.

If you want to keep the magical stones, I would purpose that the cap of magical stones ends at level 5 or by some mathematical formula that averaged out to where a character could get the max number of magical gems him or her needed in 1-2 IRL years. This way players still get the motivation of achieving a long term goal that puts them in a position of power, but once they plateau they are then able to focus on "spreading the wealth" to other players, faction members, and/or guild members.

Currently all you have is horde horde horde because I am quite certain that getting level 10 set of gems has to be damn near impossible.
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Karrock
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Karrock »

Please do not start new topics with ideas of magical gem system changes just put all ideas here.

Currently new chars even skilled enough have no chance with those who have many gems.

So first simple idea: Remove gem system and raise taxes. If char has higher rank then he would pay less taxes or even pay nothing.
For those who have lowest rank taxes could be strong pain.
Without crafting system in wilderness. Wilderness will still be not attractive to move there for workers/crafter characters.
Those characters who live there could be even permaban from using static tools in towns.
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Q-wert
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Q-wert »

Me on the very same topic in another thread wrote:At a whole, I do not believe the gem system to be broken. It serves two purposes: Rewarding long time player activity and acting as a money sink. And I do claim it to serve both of them quite well. It is not all too difficult to reach rank 7 in any of the cities by running through the static quests. Each rank is granting 10% more gems. Ranks higher than 7 require having to address Hews rampages, do administrative work, organizing quests, writing announcements and even getting some mapping done. Personally I can attest that to be quite a lot of stuff to do. Seeing at least some reward for that work is nothing bad, I believe.

It is possible to donate stuff and money to increase the gem-gain for the whole faction. Nobody is forced to participate in that, while everybody in a faction does benefit from it. Practically it does give gold a hard counter value of something that everybody wants, but one that benefits those not powergaming gold all day long as well. It also does not affect characters deflecting to others cities much, over the course of the last half year Cadomyr had by far the highest gem output and more people moving away than to it.

Gems improve armour and weapons (weapon gemming actually only doing about 10% of the displayed value) by exponentially rising gem costs. A 40% Bonus on a single piece armour (162 total gems) is rather easily obtainable by playing for a while, 50% (486 total gems), 60% (1458) or even the 70% (4374) some few organized player organisations field are not very much stronger but require way more active playtime. Two characters with less playtime and same skill and (asides from gems) same equip should still easily squish a highly gemmed character.

I am quite sure the system is working as intended. Maybe you two could point out in which respect it is supposed to be broken?
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Kraex »

The magical gem system dramatically hurts the motivation of casual warrior gamers. Pre-VBU characters like Taylor Windslasher (Military PO), Arameh, Deuce, Dominic, Drathe, Talliss, Leon, Jorokar, Dain, etc... etc... could go months without touching the game but then feel that ole Illarion hankering and tap back into the mothership. These were all characters that poured countless hours, months, years even into the game, they all had big name presence as well, and were feared on the battlefield. If they were to login to the game now they'd be IRL years behind the eightball.

I think this hurts the game by limiting the mystery and risk associated with PvP. Players want action in their games, especially these days, Illarion should be able to offer that buffed with RP. That needs to be in our arsenal because currently it is grind, grind, grind. My summary on why the current gem system is bad for the game:
  • Casual Warrior Gamers: Will 'never' equal the gem power of an active gamer.
  • PvP Predictability: Uber gemmed will win if not outnumbered.
  • Infinite Grind: Mathematically getting a full set of the highest magical gems is ridiculously high so players are not apt to spread the wealth unless they are a non-warrior. Which again goes back to the active gamer having the advantage because they will have more gold to buy 'available' magical gems.
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Vern Kron
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Vern Kron »

On the other hand:

The result now is rather than random level 100 people being the 'feared' beings, it is people who have made a name for themselves in their city. While my character is considered low threat, most people think twice about stepping infront of ssar'ney. I believe there is value in that.

The current system (in conjunction with the crafting system), has a large impact on the culture of a place. There are positive and negative points in every town, and honestly no town is "pure" good or evil. It adds to an interesting dynamic. Outlaws however, are just that. Beyond the realm of normality. Living and dieing based on their own refusal to participate. You look historically at people who were left on their own to survive in the midst of other kingdoms: they died or ended up pledging loyalty to someone else.

If gems were such highly prized possessions, then the result would be people clambering for every opportunity to get them. Currently I have only seen a few who actively seek out gems.

Gems add an element of variety to our currently dull "rock paper scissors" method of a fighting system. As it stands the only reason to fight once you hit max level is for your characters own personal profit, or in a defensive manner. Gems at the very least promise that not every fight is a hands down pre decided event.
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Juliana D'cheyne
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Juliana D'cheyne »

This character has been an outlaw since the VBU, she doesn't have a ton of gems but has as many gems in her armor and weapons as the counterpart in town. Odd jobs are done with request of magical gems as payment. Of course, she doesn't go around robbing the ones she wishes to get paid from either. :wink:


I don't think maxing gems is necessary except maybe PvP and how often is that realistically done? As an outlaw I am perfectly happy with the way the gems are distributed now. My only wish is to not hide the best monsters that are good to "learn" by in dungeons it takes a large group to get to. There are sometimes "lone" outlaws with groups of 1,2, or 3 that need training without the need to "gem up" to do it.

PS the quest for Letma should continue forever, it allows fun in hunting 7 and above monsters again for the lone or small group hunter and meeting other characters doing the same.
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by GolfLima »

* my charakter is a crafter and do not make tons of coins to buy gems (true, there are some, but as i know most of the crafters didnt do that)-> keep in mind gems can only used in armor and weapons (mostly used by figthers)
* a reachable max gem level could be an interesting idea ....hoever that includes one day all long time charakters will have such sets of maximized gems
* i have nearly the same amount of all types of gems
* my char uses a little bit more than half of the amount of gems in armor and weapons
* there are "magical diamonds" :arrow: will this gem comes one day?
* mag. gems never worked as a money sink
Kraex wrote:PvP Predictability: Uber gemmed will win if not outnumbered.
:arrow: you dont need to use the technical engine to get a result of a fight PvP - rp is another possibility // and there will be always one charakter who can bring/beet you´re char down
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Alyssa El'anir
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Alyssa El'anir »

GolfLima wrote:you dont need to use the technical engine to get a result of a fight PvP - rp is another possibility
But then certain people would have to actually learn how to RP :wink:
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GolfLima
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by GolfLima »

Alyssa El'anir wrote:
GolfLima hat geschrieben:
you dont need to use the technical engine to get a result of a fight PvP - rp is another possibility

But then certain people would have to actually learn how to RP
:arrow: teach them :wink:
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Karrock
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Karrock »

Alyssa El'anir wrote:
GolfLima wrote:you dont need to use the technical engine to get a result of a fight PvP - rp is another possibility
But then certain people would have to actually learn how to RP :wink:
Golflima -> only when two players has agreement that they want rp fight. Besides rpg system of atributes and skilling is very old and not special fun. Best is in game "Punch Club". But it cannot be changed.

Alyssa: This allussion has no sense. If IG would be too much fights I would complain how I complain on common mmo-games in which I don't play because of this. I don't miss of PK. Just only a chance to play "bad"/"evil" without clouding.
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GolfLima
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by GolfLima »

Karrock wrote:
Alyssa El'anir hat geschrieben:
GolfLima hat geschrieben:
you dont need to use the technical engine to get a result of a fight PvP - rp is another possibility

But then certain people would have to actually learn how to RP

Golflima -> only when two players has agreement that they want rp fight
:arrow: shrugs
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Alyssa El'anir
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Alyssa El'anir »

Karrock wrote:
Alyssa El'anir wrote:
GolfLima wrote:you dont need to use the technical engine to get a result of a fight PvP - rp is another possibility
But then certain people would have to actually learn how to RP :wink:
Golflima -> only when two players has agreement that they want rp fight. Besides rpg system of atributes and skilling is very old and not special fun. Best is in game "Punch Club". But it cannot be changed.

Alyssa: This allussion has no sense. If IG would be too much fights I would complain how I complain on common mmo-games in which I don't play because of this. I don't miss of PK. Just only a chance to play "bad"/"evil" without clouding.
I think you're misunderstanding something. It was sarcasm. Sheesh. I'm all for the non-PK fights.
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Q-wert
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Q-wert »

GolfLima wrote:* mag. gems never worked as a money sink
Image

Tell that to Ssar'neys finances. And this graph from Banduk I stole from another thread. While it is not up to date, it should give a good impression of the masses of gold that are dumped onto the donation field. Over the course of this graph (roughly one irl year) about 10-15 thousand gold were donated or gathered by the 1%-tax. Personally I have spent about 80-90% of my characters income after the VBU on donations.

I'd again like to point towards the exponentially growing cost for the same increase of effectiveness, which very much smoothes the difference between highly and less gemmed characters. The difference between an obtainable set of 50% (486 gems) and a very rarely seen 70% (4374 gems) is quite small.

Back in the day I did some testing and came to the conclusion that a difference of 10% gem bonus on an armour set is barely noticeable. I needed a difference of 20-30% with the exact same loadout for clear differences. Things got more interesting when mixed armour and weapon switching were applied, but in the end it also came down to who chose the right weapon against the right combination of armour.
What really had characters stand out in test fights were attributes, not gem levels. Considering that one can also buff oneself to nigh invulnerability with correctly applied attribute and regeneration potions, gems do not play a big a role in PvP as one might think.

In short: Uber-gemmed chars lose against lesser gemmed ones if they have a bad choice of equipment for the fight. Gems play a factor in fights that would have been close without, but are not nearly close to as effective as potions.

I see the gem system in its current instance doing/being the following things in favour of the game:
  • Large money sink and hard countervalue to gold.
  • Never ending weekly reward for login as incentive to keep playing, for hardcore as well as casual players.
  • Valuable and tradeable items which drastically become less powerful the more are applied.
Kraex
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Kraex »

Proposed changes (sub-points answer why):
  • Lowering Max Gem Level
    • High gem levels only cater to the elect few that grind it out.
    • Warrior characters are forced to horde these gems and not trade them to keep from falling behind.
    • 1-2 year IRL grind to get max gems should be sufficient to cater to older gamers to give them a little bump. After said time it encourages older fighter characters to spread the wealth to guild members and/or newbies.
    • No one character has an "extreme" advantage over another.
Sorry Q-Wert but in your scenario you are once again comparing gem levels against other active fighter characters who have sufficient gems when you refer to a 10% advantage. Not to mention a 10% advantage is a mathematically security blanket, whereas 20-30% equals you win just about every time. Furthermore, you are again a very active player, just like me, so when you and I spend 80-90% of our revenue on gems that is a substantial collection of gold. Newbies and casual gamers "cannot" match that number and fall further and further behind. I do NOT think this is a good trend and it hurts the game.
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by GolfLima »

Kraex wrote:so when you and I spend 80-90% of our revenue on gems that is a substantial collection of gold
* i think i was an active player - but my char realy did not spend much time for making coins. There were ig month my char did not make any coin, and if i remember right some month ago he made round about 8 Gold with some treasure hunts. Normally my char has something like 50 Gold +/- 5 Gold coins but not more.
* the tax is below 1 gold coin /ig month
* you cant buy much magical gems if you have only 50 Gold coins -> and i see no reason to make tons of Gold coins only for some magical gems (tax reward or buying)
* i´m sure there will allways be a char who can beat you down (also if you´re an experianced fighter with best Equipment and high Level gem sets)
* what would be the benefit (if this is really possible) when you have the "Champion of all fighters"? (with or without mag. gems)
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Estralis Seborian »

What does "Lowering Max Gem Level" mean?
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Alyssa El'anir
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Alyssa El'anir »

Estralis Seborian wrote:What does "Lowering Max Gem Level" mean?
Basically the removal of tier 10,9,8 gems or something like that, from the system, from what I understand. Meaning that the "cap" of how much better you can get with gems is lowered, while the speed to get the max level is sped up.

Not saying I agree with this proposal, but this is the way I understood it.
Kraex
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Kraex »

Alyssa is right, my thoughts are that if the Gem System was not an endless rabbit hole and could just be a nice little bonus for us long term gamers. Once we are capped the wealth can be spread around more easily.
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by LucyP »

You are making one huge assumption, that all POs, especially those with warriors, are doing nothing but gathering magical gems. I'm not. Most of my characters sell them to live and could care less about PvP and being the best warriors or the strongest there is. With that said, does this matter to many people that play casually or have left and find it difficult to return? I think that is the bigger question and I wonder how you can answer it with any reasonable certainty.
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Kraex »

I have not made that assumption. There is a clear difference between POs that prefer to do what you describe and there are a lot that do, and POs that do like utilizing the engine and playing the more action side of this game. There is nothing wrong with either player, the game encourages both. What I am saying is Illarion will not appeal to casual gamers and new gamers that DO want to play the action side of this game.

I don't care if the gem system stays, goes away, or is changed these are my observation as a player who was told to offer opinions about how to better the game. I am going to play regardless, but I've known a lot of great RPers that also like action, the fair and balanced kind. I do not feel this system is balance hence my ideas.
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Alyssa El'anir
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Alyssa El'anir »

LucyP wrote:You are making one huge assumption, that all POs, especially those with warriors, are doing nothing but gathering magical gems. I'm not. Most of my characters sell them to live and could care less about PvP and being the best warriors or the strongest there is. With that said, does this matter to many people that play casually or have left and find it difficult to return? I think that is the bigger question and I wonder how you can answer it with any reasonable certainty.
Am I the only one who hang onto some of them cause they are pretty and not for the pvp bonus..? :D
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Q-wert »

Kraex wrote:Furthermore, you are again a very active player, just like me, so when you and I spend 80-90% of our revenue on gems that is a substantial collection of gold. Newbies and casual gamers "cannot" match that number and fall further and further behind. I do NOT think this is a good trend and it hurts the game.
I'm not getting what you want to say with that. The revenue spent on gems by players is equally shared over all characters of a faction (and multiplied by rank*10%; with most people reaching max rank over the course of one or two months), no matter how much or little they contribute. How does hardcore players spending a lot make newbies and casual players fall behind?

All that people need to do to get their share is to log once a week, something I find more encouraging to become and stay active than anything else. Some time ago I have been quite active in an online shooter MMO, which at the time gave out free xp for every day you logged in. That mechanic made me stay there for quite a while. For half of the time only dipped in to grab my xp, although that kept me reminded of the game and all the fun that I had with it, what in turn made me actually play again for the other half of the times I logged in.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Estralis Seborian »

So is it a confirmed fact that players run around with full sets of level 8, 9, 10 gems in weapons and armour? And what exactly is the problem of having a 96%—120% bonus? What is the desired overall situation?
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Q-wert
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Q-wert »

I know of no player character who has a fully gemmed set of armour higher than 70%.

Personally I'd hate to be capped in progress after reaching that in maybe a year, as engine wise I simply would not have anything left to do with my character.
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Karrock
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Karrock »

I don't have all knowledge because none of my characters is outlaw but in future one become outlaw. Was told to me that outlaws don't get gems (I didn't check it by self be honest). This is great injustice. I would see erased this system or somehow added outlaws to it.

However none of my characters have many gems. They rank are not high. I don't take into account one char (possible I will delete it) but rest will not have ability to get high rank (it's somewhat against they way, and my english is not best to organize events or become representative of any town).
Take in example Runewick. If someone char is not mage there and live there how can he/she become high ranked? My char Titus if I would try to force it can support self with priest magic. For me titles are not only mechanic thing but has own meaning. Faction system is okay but is something not honest if many gems receive only a clique. For me gems are not special atrractive idea and it doesn't attract to game new players. If they would notice how much time they must spend IG to mean something they will excuse and stop playing.

Qwert wrote that is many work when one has reached high rank. I appreciate of course this work but I think there should be other reward IG for they work.

And I wrote about game "Punch Club" I write more: In that game you have still work on your abilities on special tools (it's simulator of boxer) to raise your abilities (strenght, agility etc) with time they lose. Character is losing form with time. That's why you must still work. None is sure is he/she master. It's much grind but it's great simulator of training. I love that game.

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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Djironnyma »

Karrock wrote:Take in example Runewick. If someone char is not mage there and live there how can he/she become high ranked? My char Titus if I would try to force it can support self with priest magic.
You are aware that one of the three high ranks is a priest / crafter? Theoretical it is possible for any charakter to get a high rank. theoretical you jsut have to do events which supports the town and show interest in the towns politic. Anyway at the moment are our town/game player numbers not high enogh for more high rank members
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Azure Lynch »

You know inwas gonna remain silent. But unlike the gem system. It helps me in two ways. One I make some coin selling some. Which in turn allows me to buy potions from alchemy. Which is far better than any gem. It also allows me to buy the best magical weapon I can. Which you ask is by far superior than normal weapons. To me the GSM system helped me balance my character especially when we could put it in armor. I was able to do some quests to gain rank that didn't require me to get an army and tell them to let me make the final blow or I would have to do it over again. Yes are there people with better gem set than me sure. But by trading or buying I am able to get higher rank gems. Well I guess I told you the second reason there at the end. Now there are consequences to being an outlaw. But just means a player needs to be creative on getting gems. By the lore it explains why each town has magic gems and how to.earn it. So no I like the gem system.
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Karrock
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Karrock »

Djironnyma wrote:
Karrock wrote:Take in example Runewick. If someone char is not mage there and live there how can he/she become high ranked? My char Titus if I would try to force it can support self with priest magic.
You are aware that one of the three high ranks is a priest / crafter? Theoretical it is possible for any charakter to get a high rank. theoretical you jsut have to do events which supports the town and show interest in the towns politic. Anyway at the moment are our town/game player numbers not high enogh for more high rank members
I'm just saying that rank doktor/proffessor/dean or such in hands of someone who has nothing to do with magic look terrible. Maybe should exist substitute names for non-magical citizens. Like cleaner/janitor/steward/listener or such. But maybe it's only junking speech from me.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


This is a very old proposal so won't reopen... will add at request of PO Karrock Jan. 2019. If others wish to add, let me know...............Achae

"This is very simple. Sixth gem -> diamond. Should not be connected with the rest. Finding through killing monsters or gathering by outlaws. Not to use by citizens. This should not be evil itself, 'cause being outlaw or being citizen doesn't force allignment."
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Q-wert
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Q-wert »

Some very rough theoretical numbers, just for fun:

A character of level 2 rank receives ~200 gems per irl year in average from taxes and donations, taken from Banduks graph.
A Level 6 (the average character) would receive 200*140%=280 gems per year in average.

Assuming the per capita donation rate remains the same:

Average required activity for a single set of gems:
  • 1 gem - 1.521 days

    Tier 1 (6 gems, 12% bonus) - 1 week
    Tier 2 (18 gems, 24% bonus) - 3 weeks
    Tier 3 (54 gems, 36% bonus) - 10 weeks or 2.3 months
    Tier 4 (162 gems, 48% bonus) - 7 months
    Tier 5 (486 gems, 60% bonus) - 20 months or 1.7 years
    Tier 6 (1458 gems, 72% bonus) - 5.2 years
    Tier 7 (4374 gems, 84% bonus) - 15.6 years
    Tier 8 (13122 gems, 96% bonus) - 46.8 years
    Tier 9 (39366 gems, 108% bonus) - 140 years
    Tier 10 (118098 gems, 120% bonus) - 421 years
Gem output of course fluctuates with the donations happening in the faction, as one can see in the graph.

But one also can gain gems and pure elements by gathering with a 1/4000 (might actually be half that, not too sure) chance for each gathering action. Should someone continuously grind resources at a pace of 1 action every 3 seconds (very pessimistic for mining on pauldron, optimistic for gathering fruit in Cadomyrs orchard) statistically every 3 hours and 20 minutes a gem and pure element would be yielded.
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