Magical gem system (Changes)

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LucyP
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by LucyP »

Your time chart doesn't account for the fact that your character is only receiving 2 types of gems. Not all 6 types. It takes a long while to trade them around to create a full set. Your "3 weeks" took months for Qoa.
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Q-wert
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Q-wert »

No, it does not. Overpopulated factions have difficulties exchanging their gems on the short term (as there are only so many to go around from the other ones). As far as I can see this is a desired balanching mechanism to make lesser populated factions more interesting. One that is working, too.

Therefore time required to trade depends on population balance and how well your character knows people from other factions.
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Alyssa El'anir
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Alyssa El'anir »

I have characters in all three towns, and never had trouble finding someone to trade with. Want runewick gems? Talk to Vitus, Dji, Leomar, someone like that. Galmair? Seek out the chancellors or the syndicate. Cadomyr? Noble houses are a good way to go, Ssarney and Annabeth can both either trade with you themselves or ask their underlings if they have a need for it.
LucyP
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by LucyP »

Alyssa El'anir wrote:I have characters in all three towns, and never had trouble finding someone to trade with. Want runewick gems? Talk to Vitus, Dji, Leomar, someone like that. Galmair? Seek out the chancellors or the syndicate. Cadomyr? Noble houses are a good way to go, Ssarney and Annabeth can both either trade with you themselves or ask their underlings if they have a need for it.
That's funny. When Qoa did speak with Dji, she was told that they didn't need Galmair gems. Besides, it can be difficult to find and/or know these people.

I'm just saying, it is part of the time factor.
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GolfLima
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by GolfLima »

my char has // mein Char hat cirka

~14% Amethyst //Amethyste
~17% Rubies // Rubine
~19% Saphire // Saphire
~17% Obsidian // Obsidiane
~17% Emerald // Smaragde
~13% Topas // Topase

:arrow: with a little bit work you can have nearly the same number of gems of all types
:arrow: mit ein wenig Aufwand kann man ziemlich die gleiche Anzahl aller mag. Steine haben
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Athlon
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Athlon »

Mein Char verkauft die Steine , weil er von magischen Dingen nix hält .
Ist also alles reine Ansichtssache was man braucht und wieso und
was geändert werden sollte und was nicht .
Alrik
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Alrik »

LucyP wrote:
Alyssa El'anir wrote:I have characters in all three towns, and never had trouble finding someone to trade with. Want runewick gems? Talk to Vitus, Dji, Leomar, someone like that. Galmair? Seek out the chancellors or the syndicate. Cadomyr? Noble houses are a good way to go, Ssarney and Annabeth can both either trade with you themselves or ask their underlings if they have a need for it.
That's funny. When Qoa did speak with Dji, she was told that they didn't need Galmair gems. Besides, it can be difficult to find and/or know these people.

I'm just saying, it is part of the time factor.
It could always happen that in the moment you met them that they have no need for the things you offer/want to buy/want to sell. This is no problem of the magical gems in special, it could always happen that you search for something but nobody sells it, or you want to sell something and find nobody who will buy it. Just try it some time later.
LucyP
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by LucyP »

Exactly, it all adds time. Thank you. All I'm saying. So many years become many many many years.
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Alrik »

But one thing that wasn't mentioned during the discussion as far as I have seen: Magical Gems could also be received during gathering actions (wood cutting, mining, shearing sheep...) and they could be found within treasures (treasure maps) as far as I know. All things you could do during an IG month while you are waiting for the next gem output because of taxes. So actuall, you could get gems with are not the ones of your faction while you are gahtering materials or hunt for treasures and could get some other stuff to. This could lower the time.
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GolfLima
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by GolfLima »

Alrik wrote:So actuall, you could get gems with are not the ones of your faction while you are gahtering materials
:arrow:
* is this an order to pg? :wink:
* in a post before was an extrapolation that you can get nearly all3 1/2 hours a mag gem when gathering --> you must be a very long time ig and gather things to get an equivalent number of mag. gems you got as taxe reward
* mag. gems are a realy small part of the game and a bonus - if they cause such a lot of trouble may be it is better to remove them

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
kurze deutsche Zusammenfassung:

* ein Spieler meinte man könne die mag Steine welche nicht stadteigen sind ja durch "Sammelaktionen" finden
* (nicht ganz ernst gemeinte) Frage: ist das eine Aufforderung zum pg´en? :wink:
* einige Post´s weiter vorn wurde geschrieben das man etwa alle 3 1/2h einen solchen mag. Stein finden könnte --> das würde bedeuten man müßte sich eine wirklich lange Zeit ig aufhalten und diese "Sammelaktionen" ausführen um etwa eine gleichwertige Menge an mag. Steinen zu bekommen, wie sie von der Stadt als "Gegenleistung" für die Steuer ausgegeben werden
* wenn die mag. Steine welche nur ein kleiner Teil von Illa sind und ein Bonus derart Probleme verursachen sollte man sie vielleicht löschen
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Estralis Seborian »

So far, I read the following change proposals:
  • Remove the magic gems from the game
  • Add a 4th faction to the game
  • Change the maximum gem level from 10 to 7
From the rest I conclude that some do not like the system at all while others like it. Are there any modifications proposed, beyond those already listed on Mantis?
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Lord Arcia
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Lord Arcia »

Removing gems from the game would remove a long term goal for some player types.

The population of the game can barely sustain three very active factions, atm. Let alone a fourth.

Removing the set bonus (Tier 1 giving 6% bonus instead of 12%) of gems is a better idea than removing three tiers of gem, and would retain the long term goal. Reducing the effectiveness by half would lessen the gap between hardcore and casual players.

Don't like the gems as a char or PO? Then sell/trade or use them for rituals or crafting of special items. Don't like the fact that you can't compete with chars/players who have worked hard for them? Then work hard and obtain them.

Proposed change:
Tier 1 (6 gems, 6% bonus) - 1 week
Tier 2 (18 gems, 12% bonus) - 3 weeks
Tier 3 (54 gems, 18% bonus) - 10 weeks or 2.3 months
Tier 4 (162 gems, 24% bonus) - 7 months
Tier 5 (486 gems, 30% bonus) - 20 months or 1.7 years
Tier 6 (1458 gems, 36% bonus) - 5.2 years <---- This is where a single char can be in 2 years with very active playing with no help but trading.
Tier 7 (4374 gems, 42% bonus) - 15.6 years <---- I imagine this is where an organized group of four could be in the same activity over the same time.
Tier 8 (13122 gems, 48% bonus) - 46.8 years
Tier 9 (39366 gems, 54% bonus) - 140 years
Tier 10 (118098 gems, 60% bonus) - 421 years
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Djironnyma
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Djironnyma »

Lord Arcia wrote: Tier 6 (1458 gems, 36% bonus) - 5.2 years <---- This is where a single char can be in 2 years with very active playing with no help but trading.
Tier 7 (4374 gems, 42% bonus) - 15.6 years <---- I imagine this is where an organized group of four could be in the same activity over the same time.
i can confirm this
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Karrock
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Karrock »

Estralis Seborian wrote:So far, I read the following change proposals:
  • Remove the magic gems from the game
  • Add a 4th faction to the game
  • Change the maximum gem level from 10 to 7
From the rest I conclude that some do not like the system at all while others like it. Are there any modifications proposed, beyond those already listed on Mantis?
Plus this:
Karrock wrote:And I wrote about game "Punch Club" I write more: In that game you have still work on your abilities on special tools (it's simulator of boxer) to raise your abilities (strenght, agility etc) with time they lose. Character is losing form with time. That's why you must still work. None is sure is he/she master. It's much grind but it's great simulator of training. I love that game.

Image
This proposal gives "work" even if character is max skilled. And not making uber-warriors not to beat.
And gives chances to add fair punishment while someone died (Losing abilities: strenght, agility, will power etc.)


To others: Please not writing about from who and where get gems or similar kind an questions/answers. This topic looks littered with posts and hard is find something.
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Karrock
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Magical gem system (again)

Post by Karrock »

This is continuation of old topic what someone I don't know why closed.

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=40636

Why you still keep this non sense hippie system of gems and killing all conflicts by characters what appear once a month? (Really one town is ruled by chars who even don't play). Please don't tell me that I should solve this in game, because I CAN'T DO ANYTHING BAD. Once sent char to cross will return and use political influence against my char.
I made a mega simple calculation. I have made new char. I have my goals but I will never get them done. I will never catch up others and get same quanity of gems. That is (in neiberhood to completely pacifism of this game) main cause why new players don't want to play this game.

Why in this game still exist opinion that those who choose to live outside of the box (outside of towns) have to be punished? They don't have gems or tools.

EDIT: I would rather prefer losing combat skills after death than this gems system.
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Achae Eanstray
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Topics merged and unlocked.

Achae
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Rincewind
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Rincewind »

Estralis Seborian wrote:So far, I read the following change proposals:
  • Add a 4th faction to the game
  • Change the maximum gem level from 10 to 7
I want to state, that I highly support those two proposals.

There has to be a somehow reachable limit of possible gem-bonus. Even for the hard boiled Long-Term Player. Newcomers must be able to catch up one day.

To add proper support for the Outlaw Fraction is also mandatory and long over due. (especially put an end the Cross-Farming!)
PS.: Is there a link to the mentioned mantis tickets?

But that won't fix the PVP figthing-system. Rather it gives the game the conflict-RP back it needs.
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Karrock
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Karrock »

You see the main problem is that after get levels 100 in main skills player stops playing. So this is not solution to remove higher tiers. Some day maybe now some chars will reach this tier (7) so what challenges are in front of them?
And skilling combat arts is childy difficult. I know some people cry on forum, but I made in few days 44,51,51 in main combat skills and got 71 in resource skill as new character.
There is no great challenge when everyone even workers and crafters get high skills in combat.
The speed of skilling may remain like now but there should be penalty from death. Then gems would be not needed.
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Rincewind
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Rincewind »

Sorry to say that, but those players who quit playing because they reached their skill-aim never logged in for the RP in the first place.
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Kugar
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Kugar »

@Karrock - quick skill gain is great. I'm sure we're all mostly aware that some players won't really partake in roleplay until they have their character at a certain skill level (to be that warrior that kicks butt or whatever). Since the dawn of time people strive to compete with each other and, being that this is ultimately a game, players need a chance to able to do that. All things should have a limit eg gemstone tier in order for others to catch up, otherwise players who want to take the role of an adversary will just find another outlet to use for this reason. Unlimited tiers (or ridiculously high, unattainable ones) are unreasonable and, ironically, limit the opportunity of new players. Without the possibility to shift the balance of power, it just creates a stagnate situation which can get boring very quickly.

Its like Rincewind says 'players who quit playing because they reached their skill-aim never logged in for the RP in the first place'. Thats about all there is to it, really.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Hi,

some questions / request for input:
  • Can you describe what "cross-farming" is in detail and what you propose to improve about it?
  • Who is the "Outlaw Faction" and what makes it a faction?
  • What support for the "Outlaw Faction" is requested in detail?
  • Isn't limiting the maximum gem level equivalent in its effect and intend to reducing the maximum gem bonus?
  • Is this limit intended to be a replacement/bypass for another problem that would remain untouched, such as overpowered gem effects?
  • What Mantis tickets are you looking for?
  • Can you list problems with PvP? Which of these problems do not affect PvE?
  • What do you propose to improve about PvP?
Thanks,
Estralis
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Karrock
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Karrock »

Who is the "Outlaw Faction" and what makes it a faction?
Those who would just can't live inside any towns. Like guilds for bandits, moshran followers, hermits and similar. Getting gems from gathering or treasure is not solution. Everyone can do that.

What support for the "Outlaw Faction" is requested in detail?
They need magical gems and way to make proper food (perhaps its possible now i don't know).

Can you list problems with PvP? Which of these problems do not affect PvE?
PvE does not make such emotions. Character can get levels 100 but can't lose those combat levels, so actually builds and gems make meaning not levels.

What do you propose to improve about PvP?
A way to lose attributes/combat levels. In example making a special quest or gathering or exping to get them back.
Like character goes to attribute leader (trainer) and he says you are "Nothing at all..."; "A little..."; "Half..."; "Full..." plus ->"...with forces". (He would read level of attributes in percents, 100% means all attributes on normal levels).
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Katharina Brightrim
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Katharina Brightrim »

Karrock wrote:A way to lose attributes/combat levels.
I think this is the point which was already discussed. You cannot punish player for dying, since this is a source of frustration.

As an example why this is not a good idea:
Imagine a new player who fights some rats for the first time and since he is new to the game, he does not know about the mechanics and everytime he reaches level 5 in light armour he get killed and looses his skillpoints again.

Or the PvP-version:
A player A has an argument with another player B (I am talking knowingly about players, not about chars) and uses any chance to kill the char(s) of player B. Player B looses 1 skillpoint per time he get killed and player B's only chance to not get set back at lvl 1 is to log off whenever player A logs with a char.

I hope I wrote it understandable ^^

/e: Added to this, I do not get the logic behind the idea that outlaws should get the same rewards as citizen from the towns. In the towns the leaders pay the citizen gems as a kind of payback for them to support the town. Who would give outlaws these gems? Or why would anybody continiue paying taxes when you can get gems without paying them?
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Rincewind
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Rincewind »

Estralis Seborian wrote:Hi,

some questions / request for input:

Hi! I welcome the opportunity to share my thoughts on those.
  • Can you describe what "cross-farming" is in detail and what you propose to improve about it?
    Cross farming I call it when an outlaw character gets merciless hunted and clouded by a Town-Character(s) - the RP usually starts at the Hemp Necktie Inn-Resurrecting-Cross, where the outlaw has low chances to escape. In reverse the Outlaw won't gain anything from sending townspeople to the cross.
    :arrow: Outlaws require a safe re-spawn spot.
  • Who is the "Outlaw Faction" and what makes it a faction?
    The whole point of being Outlaw is to be free from the boundaries of the three factions. So there can't be a leader or a common goal they would gather under. The only thing they might have in common is the need for a (mostly) save haven.
  • What support for the "Outlaw Faction" is requested in detail?

    • Mandatory is a restricted area which contains:
    • save re-spawn
    • depot
    • close harbor or teleporter
    • (optional) - magic gems
    • (optional) - static tool


    The restriction is the tricky point, the easiest solution would be a 'NPC-guard' - that pushes all townspeople back from the entrance. However, we also could open the basement of the Hemptie neck Inn to everyone who is not part of the three factions and got banned once. Half-Hung Bryan would 'invite'/teleport you there and offer shelter if one asked him for that (a reasonable fee is plausible).

    Or it is an available quest option once you are an Outlaw to join Half-Hung Bryans Shelter-Club. Then you could even pay taxes again and we can approve to hand out gems. - The problem with giving Outlaws gems is there is no rank system for them. Rankings would require NPCs. . . (not said I wouldn't work on them if approved :P)

    About the static tool(s):
    It would be eligible to have at least one method available to earn coins beside of fighting monsters. Tools for refinement of resources like a gem-grinder would be a perfect fit in my view. Tools for main-crafts should remain in town, this way we probably don't ruin the design of the economy.
  • Isn't limiting the maximum gem level equivalent in its effect and intend to reducing the maximum gem bonus?
    The Bonus I only mind when it seems to unbalance the system of damage vs. damage reduction, invulnerable Characters shouldn't be possible, I guess as long as there is a weapon to scratch you we are fine on that point.

    The reason I would like to limit the gem level sooner is, that it is almost impossible for newcomers to collect the amount of gems needed to compete with old characters in a reasonable time. Chances are that the characters I compete with quit playing rather than I can compete with them in a fair battle one day. A real motivation-kill.
  • Is this limit intended to be a replacement/bypass for another problem that would remain untouched, such as overpowered gem effects?

    I don't think so. The general output of gems seems to work fine in general. However - we could increase the output per month a lot, and would reach the same effect and players would still feel the pleasure of fulfillment/perfectionism to have a Tier 10 gem-set one day. . .
  • What Mantis tickets are you looking for?
    4th faction tickets :P
  • Can you list problems with PvP? Which of these problems do not affect PvE?
    • In general PVP becomes inedible if people start to run.

      I should say One-vs-One is not so much my concern, since it appears to be a math and gem problem.
      • So let's talk about group-fights!


      PvE-formations work pretty well since Monster-Tactics are quite linear, newcomers usually die first because they haven't figured out yet what monsters will do and are not instructed in the tactic.
    • Magic Gem Bonus appears to be out of balance.
    • Keeping a formation makes no sense.
      • Polearms have no reasonable reach anymore.
      • Shields don't matter enough against ranged weapons
      • Bonus on Flank-attacks not noticeable.

  • What do you propose to improve about PvP?
My solution would be to attempt and give holding the formation good use. Also superior manpower should make up for lesser skills.
  • Increase hit-chance and/or damage-bonus of Backstabbing and Flank attacks.
  • Increase the use of shields against ranged weapons, even rather low leveled Characters should be able to defend from arrows if hold in the right direction.
  • Running should give a huge penalty on blocking and avoiding incoming attacks.



Thanks,
Estralis

Thanks for asking,
Rincewind
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Karrock
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Karrock »

Rincewind wrote:About the static tool(s):
It would be eligible to have at least one method available to earn coins beside of fighting monsters. Tools for refinement of resources like a gem-grinder would be a perfect fit in my view. Tools for main-crafts should remain in town, this way we probably don't ruin the design of the economy.
Better to don't add any static tools. Each char would have own point of view what he would like to do.

But with rest I agreed especially formations. A game where I played before ( text mud rp) I invented that idea (but not full concept) of formations and they implemented it and it works to this day pretty fine. Can you make another topic for this idea where we could make a brainstorm what to add there besides of that you mentioned? I maybe could have few conceptions (but I don't want to change direction of this topic).
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Charlotte-ate-wilbur
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur »

I'm still new and haven't found as much time to play and discover more about the game world.

If the gems are not really an issue why is it revisited so much? There's enough problem with it to get so many from such a small community trying to suggest change for an extended period.

Is there maybe a middle ground? Do we have enough devs or is it not possible to change? I don't know these things lol still a noob.
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Charlotte-ate-wilbur
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur »

If the intention is to make it hard to be an outlaw why not make the taxes a little more, the gems a little less, and not as many static tools as the towns have.

This way they get something, way it doesn't seem so unfair to them.

I didn't think being an outlaw or bad guy was much of an option at first, the only outlaws I've seen were gamemasters.
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S'rrt
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by S'rrt »

Charlotte, outlaws have none of those things. They don't pay taxes, don't get gems or static tools.

EDIT: I'm realizing now that you may be talking of a hypothetical situation. If so, ignore my post.
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Karrock
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Karrock »

Because someone has asked in other topic why this is not possible for a new player/character or even a player who stopped playing for some time to match old ones and points cause as a difficulties on gettings skills I must refresh this topic and introduce my incomplete solution. This solution is similar to one I placed here before.

First all or almost all interesting players have stopped playing this game. They quit. People who remain in most wonder why this happend, but they can't udnerstand or accept reasons. They have appropriated this game for themselves. This is much easier to just quit game than creating a discussion that results with no effect. In the last year we had about 70 to 80 active players. Now we have 58. People have left because of many reasons why this game is not changing. This is effect of many elements that exist to this day and I focus only on one, pointed in topic's name.

There was a debate before to lower time spent in game to get skill levels. Devs listened this request and made skills easier to get. Main issue always after VBU were magical gems. Player doesn't need to be a genius of mathematics to easily count that exists no way to match old characters who log (at least for a seconds) each week and gets magical gems from towns taxes. This makes any new character/player a person who can't be treated serious. Never. Even those chars who leave towns and become outlaws, those who are played by a longer time can't in the long term be playable. When normal player wants to make a break from game, because of a resons as char who live in the town he can only log into game for a seconds to get gems and can log off. Outlaw must spend time in game to gather gems from doing mechanical acting: gathering, map hunting etc. Even those activities are not allowed only to Outlaws and every character of any town can do this additionaly to the tax-income. This makes playable Outlaws for only few a hardcore players.

In my opinion only solution would be remove or even delete those magical gems or launching their power off. Character who would be killed by any other character should lose some percentage experience that builds his attributes levels. In special meditation room every character could set gain of got experiences to specifical attributes. After doing any acting that gives experiences points automatically these experiences point will go to attributes percentally set before in meditation room.

If this change won't be make (or similar one) this game simply keep losing players and won't get any new ones. Basically all current players are those who made their account years before. New players are not idiots like some people consider here. In the example I just place one quote ->
As an example why this is not a good idea:
Imagine a new player who fights some rats for the first time and since he is new to the game, he does not know about the mechanics and everytime he reaches level 5 in light armour he get killed and looses his skillpoints again.
This is a description of about 8 years old child. I made account in this game when after death character lose some skill levels. This was not a cause why I have stop this game. People play much more difficult games than Illarion is. Like games that not forgive any mistake what ends with death and there is even no saves/loads. Even those games have bigger base of players than Illarion has. I know also games which I can't still understand how to play them because they are so complex (like Europa Universalis), but have playerbase counted in hundreds of thousands. Actually most games I know accept losing experience after death.

Only one thing that in my opinion keeps magical gems as sensible concept is attempt to keep players/characters still in game after their "endgame".
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Magical gem system (Changes)

Post by Estralis Seborian »

While I do not think our player numbers will explode when we change something about magical gems - or that all players who left left because of magical gems - I fully understand there is the need for discussing gems and their effects.
In my opinion only solution would be remove or even delete those magical gems or launching their power off.
I see at least one more option: Make magical gems consumables.
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