Why I suddenly disappeared.

Here you can make and discuss suggestions to improve the game. / Hier kannst du Vorschläge einreichen und diskutieren um das Spiel zu verbessern.

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RobinValentine
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Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by RobinValentine »

Hey all, for those who didn't know this is PO Ren. Just dropping this by so you all know why I poofed out of existence. There's just so little I want to do in Illa... The majority of RP was just stuff I do IRL but in a different voice. And then I felt like a prick playing a character centered around peace when conflict is difficult enough to create with the way the game is run. I mean the way that the oncoming war was swept under the rug in a day by the way the Don and Queen treated it as a player affair not a faction affair was boring af. With this I felt like if I successfully played my character that I would be taking away from the game. Maybe if the war had started I wouldn't feel so bad because A.) Fighting for peace would actually bear challenge and B.) wouldn't feel bad fighting against something the game needs.
The Sirani temple was my attempt to keep myself interested in the game but it was swept from underneath my feet by Ssarney and Arcia. While Ren showed appreciation for the temple being COMPLETELY funded, I was just moaning because it took away what sort of progression I was trying to give myself. The PGing is boring af and it seems to be all the majority of the community wants to do, so with stale RP (due to the circumstances of the game not the individual players) and boring game mechanics, Illa was feeling like a chore not a pleasure.
When the magic comes out I'll probably give Illa another try, but from what I understand that's going to take ages. Sorry all, i feel bad just leaving you all, but I want to enjoy my free time not dredge through it.
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Alyssa El'anir
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Alyssa El'anir »

RIP Vira's heart.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Estralis Seborian »

While I cannot say a lot about the ingame events you refer to, I'd be interested in what you describe as boring game mechanisms. Can you elaborate on what you consider most boring but still necessary? Perhaps you have a good idea how to improve the game and make it more exciting?

Magic is indeed not coming anytime soon. We are still in a conception phase. But it is on our road map, see http://illarion.org/development/us_progress.php.
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Djironnyma
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Djironnyma »

Moved and removed offtopic spam. It is very importan for us to know why ppl quit playing illarion (what not means that we can avoid any case but we are giving our best),
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rakust dorenstkzul
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by rakust dorenstkzul »

As it stands. What Illa needs more than a faction system is a way to reward conflict, without making the losers lose too hard.
RobinValentine
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by RobinValentine »

Estralis Seborian wrote:While I cannot say a lot about the ingame events you refer to, I'd be interested in what you describe as boring game mechanisms. Can you elaborate on what you consider most boring but still necessary? Perhaps you have a good idea how to improve the game and make it more exciting?

Magic is indeed not coming anytime soon. We are still in a conception phase. But it is on our road map, see http://illarion.org/development/us_progress.php.
1.) Combat is just right click and let the gems do the rest. While there is some measure of kiting, potion use and you can weapon switch to exploit weaknesses (but with what I understand that last bit is frowned upon), it boils down to "gems OP". There is little interaction and nothing to compensate for that lack of interaction. The gear progression is linear and there is nothing particularly exciting about combat.
2.) Crafting and gathering is literally just double click an item-go afk, double click an item-go afk, double click an item-go afk. I mean, most games do it (thanks WoW), but its still a stale mechanic.
3.) The only mechanic in game that amused me was alchemy, there was A LOT to that.

The game honestly feels like a more regulated Runescape, which in all rights is fine for a lot of people. But I don't enjoy non-interactive gameplay and the games with non-interactive gameplay I enjoy have a lot of theory crafting behind it not just "hur hur get gems"
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Jupiter
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Jupiter »

1.) Combat is just right click and let the gems do the rest. While there is some measure of kiting, potion use and you can weapon switch to exploit weaknesses (but with what I understand that last bit is frowned upon), it boils down to "gems OP". There is little interaction and nothing to compensate for that lack of interaction. The gear progression is linear and there is nothing particularly exciting about combat.
On the gem issue: I tend to share your view that they are overpowered. I believe we need to revisit them at some point. Especially in armours.
2.) Crafting and gathering is literally just double click an item-go afk, double click an item-go afk, double click an item-go afk. I mean, most games do it (thanks WoW), but its still a stale mechanic.
We are open for suggestions how to improve it. Especially in gathering, I think we could add some small things that would make ire more fun without chaning teh core system too much.
3.) The only mechanic in game that amused me was alchemy, there was A LOT to that.
And there is more on the way! (But I say that for over a year now, so not in the near future :D)
Fooser
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Fooser »

OP brings up a lot of good points. The pre-VBU/VBU player stat graph has been posted enough and we're all aware of it by now. I have another one to share:

Image

The first red mark is approximately when the battle happened, then there was a sustained level of higher activity for a while, and the second red mark is when they squashed the Galmair guard and other stuff. You could say both those are well timed coincidences, but I doubt it. Stats always show player driven events of interest work. In a world with Steam, Playstation store, Netflix and other platforms you're competing with entertainment value, and Illarion isn't providing much.

There are a number of serious issues that ultimately handicap the success level of this game including:
  • The game being structured in a way where processes and people stop most things of interest from happening before they even start. OP has noted this as well. When the battle happened we basically had to blatantly ignore numerous hurdles that were in place.
  • Beating this inertia is possible but if you don't have full success it's basically "game over", forcing you to make an alt or quit.
  • There's no breathing room for anything in any faction. Taking initiative to do stuff is often met with butthurt and passive aggressive responses.
  • There are game developers who openly state they work for themselves and not the players or the growth of the game.
  • Faction leaders are played inconsistently and the GMs involved often have conflicts of interest.
  • Players are generally stuck trying to entertain themselves with limited options, usually running events revolving around map hunts or powergaming sessions.
  • Generally speaking there's only one faction active for North American players.
There's a lot of selfishness and stagnation and it's a shame given the work people have put in to Illarion over the years. The presence of people like Vilarion is really missed. Ultimately I would also recommend the OPs approach .. vote with your feet, take a break, game or RP somewhere else, read a book, go to the gym, whatever. Maybe at some point someone higher up will take a hard look at how things operate.
Last edited by Fooser on Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Mephistopheles »

+^
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Karrock
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Karrock »

I miss conflicts between players characters and possible people what quitting game also. Most every newbie which starts game is trying to make world better (exception was Nokhtar, his initiative was desctructed quickly, sad) but he/she doesn't recognize that playing here as evil character is not possible. Soon he is bored powergaming or chatting and quits.
Annabeth
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Annabeth »

Karrock wrote:I miss conflicts between players characters and possible people what quitting game also. Most every newbie which starts game is trying to make world better (exception was Nokhtar, his initiative was desctructed quickly, sad) but he/she doesn't recognize that playing here as evil character is not possible. Soon he is bored powergaming or chatting and quits.
Ssar'ney and Annabeth have been having quite the player character conflict IG for a while as nobles with different ideals for Cadomyr, even though the two of us cooperate ooc :P Plenty of chaos to be found in Cadomyr if you dig deep enough!
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Karrock
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Karrock »

Ssar'ney and Annabeth have been having quite the player character conflict IG for a while as nobles with different ideals for Cadomyr, even though the two of us cooperate ooc :P Plenty of chaos to be found in Cadomyr if you dig deep enough!
Yes but look at this with new player sight. Experienced player can roleplay even bandit who lives within one town but new players can't know how to make conflicts without punishment after try to rob or attack. You must to speak many before use final option which is red circle. For new players who are educated on simple mmo games this time is too long. They want to play their char fast. They don't want planning with months one attack and they miss regular battles between characters. Complicated causes for attacking others and makes battles or so should be in intention of olders players. New players just want to slash (Like in middleages serfs didn't know for what are conflicts, they only wanted to get their revenge or earn some money on war as common soldiers).
Damien
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Damien »

Why does one hear, over the past years, "the GMs should do this / have done that / should not do this..." and so on and so on ?

I mean: Come on. This community was at it's very best when players were more active than GMs, founded guilds, started weird projects, played for goals amongst their groups.
All the staff did was giving those groups some "anchorability" in the settlements. Very active and big groups can almost take over a town, the GMs only hold a hand on the big rudder to keep the main course steady.

After all, the Staff just puts up a Framework !
The GM's don't have the job to "entertain us", aside from a few quests and fun actions. That's not really possible anyhow since the staff has too few members and GM work is an ungrateful job in illa, 'cause you can always do it right for a majority of people but a few will always complain, and they shout loudest.
You see: Complaining does not help. EVER. It just ruins the mood, ruins the fun, and people leave. Everybody complains about everything but nothing in general. Shake it off ! Get on the f***ing stage and start RPing your frigging hearts out ! That's what illarion is all about. Not for "being entertained". Not for pouting and complaining. Not for winning either, except for winning new friends and nice experiences. It's your own stage, so start using it that way !


Illarion times are at their best when groups of players motivate themselves and each other. With that comes all the rest and all the fun.
GMs and Staff just set up the stage. But the actors are YOU, the players !

So, don't start bullshitting abouzt voting with your feet. That is exactly what makes illarion so lame lately. Of course, there's no magic system, there's lots of grinding necessary, well, yes that can be a bit annoying, but it's the actual state, things get learned kinda slow. But it does not keep you from RPing and it does not keep you from bringing your friends.

I suggest an experiment:

Gather a few friends and form a big group of completely new chars who grow up together and who work together. It does not need to be a "good" or "evil" concept group, just make it a colorful bunch of friends, or halfers, or dwarves, or whatever. And when you get two to three groups becoming active, you will notice that WHAM ! Suddenly stuff will become fun again. If some people bring a friend or two, or tell people in some forums about a game you know that can need a bit getting used to but becomes a load of fun after a bit, well, you'll see the player numbers rising like a rocket.


So. Enough ranting from my side. ;)
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Kamilar
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Kamilar »

Touching on Damien's point about guilds, it's important to note that guilds are not currently a possibility. I think bringing back guilds and some meaningful character autonomy would be a fine idea. The guild boards are gone and guilds are not supported within factions but the idea has merit. For players to form guilds would require a shift in the current game management and development culture but it's worth exploring.

The faction system is fabulous for a small handful of players who benefit from it. For those of us in the cheap seats, it's uninteresting at best. As a player, being put in a position of having to grovel or manipulate people, I'm with Fooser. The entertainment value is missing for me. Forget Netflix. I'd rather clean the bathroom than participate in that manner.

I think Damien hit the nail square on the head when he said the staff has too few members. That's a genuine problem and the more active players are, the more noticeable it is.
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Tyan Masines »

The truth will be somewhere between Damien's and Fooser's points. Just one thing to add to Damien about the "this game is not about being entertained." <- This is the core idea of a game. I wrote something similar many many years ago, but put it this way: Don't expect to be entertained, don't enter the room and shout "entertain me!", but actively seek for RP opportunities. And I guess Damien meant it like that as well.

For the matter of factions, I can't really decide what to think atm. I remember people asking for more player participation and less GM-driven leader action. Now we have players basically leading the towns (not de jure, but de facto) and it is problematic to some people again and it is asked for more GM-driven leader action. Makes one think whether it's really about all that at all, if you catch my drift.

I don't think having a magic system would suddenly cure all the problems over night. It might just create an influx of players, like the initial VBU release, that will ebb away again. The alchemy system for example is great, because it promoted individual thinking and feels immersive. But, you can only keep people around that long with immersive crafting, gathering and so on and so forth. People master crafts at some point and then, there is nothing to do.

And the gem system we have does not promote making new characters regularly, not for anyone who wants to fight.
--> No new fighter characters, less demand for new armors / other items.
---> Demand for potions only high when people are learning / fighting a lot. Again, no new players / new characters means less potions required.

But looking at the past, we've been over things like armor breaking and losing quality (quickly), characters losing skill on death, even less quick skillgain, etc. And I believe it is good we got rid of these things, because they only work for people spending numerous hours ingame and not for the occasional people a game wants as well! My point is, solutions might look easy, but they are not. But the theory behind technical aspects, the grand design of them, are as important as the technical aspects themselves.

RobinValentine wrote:But I don't enjoy non-interactive gameplay and the games with non-interactive gameplay I enjoy have a lot of theory crafting behind it not just "hur hur get gems"
I just wished every player who left would write a few notes about why, not the ranting about ig events, but technical game design aspects. But as Juptier already stated, gems and how they work seems to be an issue and they should be reviewed, if not outright be removed from the game. They inherently imbalance it in favor of old players. And they take away the necessity of town alignments as like RobinValentine wrote, in the end it is about "hur hur get gems". And that, sadly, works best by playing opportunist characters, which are boring if everyone plays them. But the current system promoted opportunist playstyles, which people might mean when they say "conflict is not supported."
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

I actually like the game nearly as is. I dont care much for most of the PO's, I think with such a small player base too many clics develop. You are with or against me. This will get better with time, more players. I do think the best change that could happen to the game is, putting depot, static tools and repair/trading npc's in the wilderness. There are already many campsites spread around the map. Let us use them. You dont like me? or my play? Let me exist outside of your GM run town. Quit trying to force me in. I know you want me to enjoy/play the game the same way you do, but I dont. I see a different way to have fun. I love all that has been done. I love the mechanics, the map, the essence of the game. But the last thing I want to do, coming home from kissing arse all day, is kiss more. Let me roam free. Please.
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Kamilar
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Kamilar »

Hew Keenaxe wrote:I actually like the game nearly as is... but the last thing I want to do, coming home from kissing arse all day, is kiss more.
That. Exactly that.
RobinValentine
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by RobinValentine »

Jupiter wrote: We are open for suggestions how to improve it. Especially in gathering, I think we could add some small things that would make ire more fun without chaning teh core system too much.
Hey sorry it took so long to respond life has been hectic and I wanted to do some research on the matter before I said anything. I looked around at a lot of different game's crafting systems and articles about the most common gathering system (the one Illa follows right now.) And this is what I found, (I only used two games as example but the suggestions have thoughts from other games as well)

Now my favorite approach has to be what EVE did. While I don't play the game, I applaud its brilliance. They give you TONS of options on how to get your resources (a lot of which Illa already supports but the yields aren't high enough or mechanic really supported to be worth it/possible). They have the standard "right click an item-afk, right click an item-afk" approach. Or you could provide "Transportations" and truck resources between people gaining portion profit. Or you could go relic hunting (kind of like our marker stones except can be regularly done) or you can do a series of quests. Or you can be a pirate and kill people doing previous things and take their stuff. Or you could have all out faction warfare and have massive epic battles of awesome that are fought over resources and land. Or you could do what the Union and Syndicate do and play bank simulator. Or you can go treasure hunting (basically maps). In relationship to Illa, we already have most of this.
So instead of really implementing anything new, more heavily support what is already there. Change the markers up a little bit, maybe add a reset timer on them so you can keep acquiring them and add some danger to it to make it a little more interesting or a random puzzle so you feel like an adventurer (though I understand this one would be a bit difficult to create >.<). Make death meaningful and you drop everything on death, right now it's pathetic and I used it to get back to Galmair cuz I forgot to buy a book (and death can be cheaper than buying the book depending on what you are wearing!). With this a town guard would have reason other than RP, evil characters can have more purpose, and more jobs could arise. People would need body guards which would cause more RP relationships as people would be more inclined to play with people they usually don't, transporting goods would be more valuable because now those peaceful characters that are making bank need someone to guard their goods, and so on.

Other games made the monotonous grind worth the time not by making the gathering itself all that great but the end result FANTASTIC. For example modded minecraft (personally not my cup of tea but I can't argue with it's amazing design) Where you start off with your fists and end up with MASSIVE nuclear generators, nukes, power armor, mining quarries, insane magics, strange utilities and so on. It gives you a a greater sense of accomplishment, systems to figure out, and lots of toys to play with. Now, obviously, Illa isn't Minecraft so in relation to it just change the product of what you make. Reworking the crafting is a milestone, instead of concerning yourself on HOW you get your product, concern yourself with WHAT the product is. If each piece of equipment we made had different effects and had a different progression for each piece, even within the same skill, it would apply those toys and visible sense of accomplishment. Right now everything you can make is slightly noticeable stat changes. FUN! The current system also shreks any feeling of personalization, when you only have 3 lvl 100 sets to choose from, everyone ends up looking the same.

I don't want to make Illa other games, but as someone with limited game theory knowledge I felt it was better for me to look at successful systems and what made them that way and make suggestions from there.
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Jupiter
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Jupiter »

Thanks for your feedback, RobinValentine. Let me try to reply to some of your points.
So instead of really implementing anything new, more heavily support what is already there. Change the markers up a little bit, maybe add a reset timer on them so you can keep acquiring them and add some danger to it to make it a little more interesting or a random puzzle so you feel like an adventurer (though I understand this one would be a bit difficult to create >.<).
The marker stones are great. I spent myself hours finding them. But I would not reset them or make them random. BUT we should add something that follow the same logic that can be done over and over again (and it random). So maybe we will add something like Adventure Parchments as well. Those can be scattered all over Illarion, randomly. And you can gather them. That was already disucssed among some staff members in the past and I am sure we will have something like this one day.

Make death meaningful and you drop everything on death, right now it's pathetic and I used it to get back to Galmair cuz I forgot to buy a book (and death can be cheaper than buying the book depending on what you are wearing!). With this a town guard would have reason other than RP, evil characters can have more purpose, and more jobs could arise. People would need body guards which would cause more RP relationships as people would be more inclined to play with people they usually don't, transporting goods would be more valuable because now those peaceful characters that are making bank need someone to guard their goods, and so on.
Death consequences are a classical topic to debate in Illarion :/
Personally, I would agree with you. I would like more serious death consequences. Feel free to add ideas here http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=39570
Maybe one day we find something which is both, serious and fun.
If each piece of equipment we made had different effects and had a different progression for each piece, even within the same skill, it would apply those toys and visible sense of accomplishment. Right now everything you can make is slightly noticeable stat changes. FUN! The current system also shreks any feeling of personalization, when you only have 3 lvl 100 sets to choose from, everyone ends up looking the same.
I tend to agree. Crafting would do good if its products would be a bit less boring. Not sure how to accomplish that, though. What do you have in mind? Something like attribute boosts?
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Thanks for the feedback. To make items more interesting is on our agenda, even though I have to admit we won't achieve something that is comparable to Minecraft. Illarion has to convince with its charm and uniqueness instead.

Concerning fighting, I have high hopes that it will become more interesting with glyph forging and magic in general being implemented. But for now, we cannot implement "Age of Conan" style combo attacks or similar conceptions of other games. Fighting was never a strong points of Illarion and many players actually prefer not to fight at all. We will see what we can do about this, but as the main reasons listed in this thread are related to ingame events, I think our gamemasters read the feedback and will consider it in future.
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Vern Kron
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Re: Why I suddenly disappeared.

Post by Vern Kron »

Jupiter wrote:
If each piece of equipment we made had different effects and had a different progression for each piece, even within the same skill, it would apply those toys and visible sense of accomplishment. Right now everything you can make is slightly noticeable stat changes. FUN! The current system also shreks any feeling of personalization, when you only have 3 lvl 100 sets to choose from, everyone ends up looking the same.
I tend to agree. Crafting would do good if its products would be a bit less boring. Not sure how to accomplish that, though. What do you have in mind? Something like attribute boosts?
I remember reading a while back in the code some bits about advantages with certain weapons (like merinium ones) on certain creatures. In the old client, magical weapons also had a variety of effects, iirc, magical daggers had a chance to paralyze momentarily (this is one that I highly do not want back in the game.) and other such things. I think it may be worth looking into re-establishing some of these things.

If you add the copper/silver/gold/merinium weaknesses, on top of various bonus effects different weapons may have (possibility to cause flame effect, chance to lightning strike, small chance to lifesteal, just generally higher base damage, etc, etc.) These sorts of things would add diversity to the weapon choices given, as well as spice up how fights operate. I'm not sure if it is possible, but this could also help with the issue of people using things outside of their regular ability: these special effects only take hold when you are at high enough level to properly use the weapon.
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