Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

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Po Will
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Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Po Will »

I've been having a look at the mantis stuff lately, and caught this on there.
Illarion will feature three exclusive magical classes. A character can only follow one magical path or none but not two or three. Switching classes will be possible but at total loss of all skills and abilities of the former class. Two magical classes draw their power from one group of gods, either the Five elder gods or the Eleven young gods. The third class draws its power from nature itself, the world like it was before the coming of the gods. For each class, there is a set of actions that focuses on direct effects while another set of actions provides "crafted"/"modified" items that can be used by anyone. Every magic user is free to use both types of actions at will even though their mechanics differ significantly.

The Way of the Five
Arcanians: The mysterious Arcanians follow the way of the Five and combine secret runes to magical spells of devastating power
Glyph Forgers: Using ancient lore, a glyph forger enchants pieces of jewellery that channels the power of the Five

The Way of the Eleven
Templars: The champions of the Eleven lead their blessed comrades to battle or the next beer drinking festival
Sanctificators: Holy men of the gods bless powerful artifacts of divine protection.

The Way of the Nature
Druids: Being one with nature, manipulating the forces that formed the world Illarion is the domain of druids.
Alchemist: These experts of herb lore brew powerful potions in the name of the Eleven that might enhance its consumers’ abilities or cause serious belly ache
This seems all fine and dandy to me, then Q'wert left this.

[quoteI got an issue regarding lizard lore:

Lizards are depicted as devout followers of one (and only one) of the old five Gods with a society lead by templars (described as paladins) and priests. They also are said to practice no magic, except for rare individuals far removed from their original culture.

How is the lizard race, with its exclusive worship of Tanora, strong tendencies towards what this draft names Templars and Sanctificators and shunning of magic (named 'The Way of the Five' in this draft) intended to be inclued in a lore friendly way?][/quote]

Estrais responded with
No race specific settings/limits are planned.
Then Q replied with:
Then we might have a problem. The system written as above would completely go against the lizard race description on the website as well as what we do have in game.

It would reward playing the race otherwise, proving those following the lore wrong by actual in game wonders available to 'heretics', while 'true' lizards would be unable to play any of the magical classes, including the priests and templars that are depicted to be plentiful in their culture.

In the end it'd be a break of consistency between game mechanics and game lore/environment. Not all too great in regards of immersion and promotion of roleplay.
Apologies for all the qouting, but it gives the information.
With that said, what do people think, and primarily the Lizard players think about the issue of compatibility, considering the lore behind the Race regarding templars and their priests?

What I've come up with, without needing to fiddle with the lore goes a bit like this. Rather than forcing the Lizard community or players to now follow one of the lesser gods in their eyes, Tanora can remain one of the five, but at the same time a Shrine/alter can be built for the priest magic class with the goddess Zelphia. That way, the immersion can't be broke for the Lizard players, and it sticks friendly towards the already written lore.

What do people think?
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Nitram
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Nitram »

What is possible and what is done are two different things.

Lizards may very well be able to use the full extend of the magic system. If they do use it is another thing. And if they are hunted down if they use the wrong part that is something else too.

The magic system is supposed to give you possibilities and not to set hard restrictions.

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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Mephistopheles »

Its a sandbox rpg, if the engine fails you then screw it, rp yourself. There's no priest magics for Bjolmur, Dragorog, or Cherass from what I'm understanding, will that stop people from doing it? So why should it stop lizards from rping a priest/templar/santificator of Tanora??!!
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Po Will
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Po Will »

Oh, I'm not saying we should limit anyone's choice or ability. But by lore standards, with Tanora being their main Goddess, it doesn't make much sense for them to then become dedicated to the other eleven, so that they can become priests, unless they can become priests at the shrine and alter of Tanora that is.

If we're going have a priest like magic system, then it seems a little odd that the most religious race, in terms of single following, can't then become the priest/templar/santificator class through their own shrines.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Please note that the excerpt on Mantis is a draft. Everything about magic lore is free floating as we will NOT design magic around any existing lore or "theories" but around demands of uniqueness, playability and game balance. Lore comes later. This includes the exact role of gods. Where gods are really used in the scripts for design purposes, they'll be used as modificators and parameters but not as limits. By no mean will I forbid a lizard to become a Ronagan priest or a fire mage. This falls under the freedom of roleplaying.
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Po Will
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Po Will »

Sorry if my writing isn't too clear. I'm not suggesting we ban, forbid or limit anyone who wishes to play as a Lizard from worshipping any other god such as. Rather, if another alter was created along the line of the elven, but for Tanora by the name Zelphia so that players can also play as priests and templars of their main goddess, without having to amend the lore or the likes. Unless they're able to pray at Tanora shrines to join the priest classes there, they'd then limit their roleplay from being priests of templar. They could, but if they wished to only worship and abide by Tanora, they would then need to make their powers only in roleplay and not by mechanics of the game.
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Mephistopheles »

Why not make magic and priesthood a bit broader? Instead of calling it "way of the five" call it magic, instead of calling it priesthood of the younger eleven just call it "priesthood"

This allows players to add whatever templates they want to themselves. Its merely a matter of wordplay that I don't really see why its an issue.

New prop:
I think priests/templars should be able to dedicate and destroy those undedicated alters around the map. And when I say dedicate I mean to add a feature like labeling in alchemy, simply write a name.(destroyed alters could repawn as undedicated after maybe 24 hours) This gives a huge amount of freedom and sandbox immersion for said priests and templars, if someone wants to worship Krom the great god of war and steel, then why should engine or staff stop them?? (Besides the fact that its ripping off Conan :D)
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Estralis Seborian »

I completely agree and will remove all lore related aspects from the concept drafts. They distract too much and give rise to completely unnecessary discussions. If you can become priest of Tanora or not is not a fundamental design decision. It's like you discuss about the color of a car before you decided if it is a van or a pick up. Sure, people buy cars because of colours, so colours are very important. But painting comes last.
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Po Will
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Po Will »

I'd say something about being colour blind... but I'll haggle later :P
Felbion Lijawyn
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Felbion Lijawyn »

Po Will wrote:I've been having a look at the mantis stuff lately, and caught this on there.
Illarion will feature three exclusive magical classes. A character can only follow one magical path or none but not two or three. Switching classes will be possible but at total loss of all skills and abilities of the former class. Two magical classes draw their power from one group of gods, either the Five elder gods or the Eleven young gods. The third class draws its power from nature itself, the world like it was before the coming of the gods. For each class, there is a set of actions that focuses on direct effects while another set of actions provides "crafted"/"modified" items that can be used by anyone. Every magic user is free to use both types of actions at will even though their mechanics differ significantly.

The Way of the Five
Arcanians: The mysterious Arcanians follow the way of the Five and combine secret runes to magical spells of devastating power
Glyph Forgers: Using ancient lore, a glyph forger enchants pieces of jewellery that channels the power of the Five

The Way of the Eleven
Templars: The champions of the Eleven lead their blessed comrades to battle or the next beer drinking festival
Sanctificators: Holy men of the gods bless powerful artifacts of divine protection.

The Way of the Nature
Druids: Being one with nature, manipulating the forces that formed the world Illarion is the domain of druids.
Alchemist: These experts of herb lore brew powerful potions in the name of the Eleven that might enhance its consumers’ abilities or cause serious belly ache
This seems all fine and dandy to me, then Q'wert left this.

[quoteI got an issue regarding lizard lore:

Lizards are depicted as devout followers of one (and only one) of the old five Gods with a society lead by templars (described as paladins) and priests. They also are said to practice no magic, except for rare individuals far removed from their original culture.

How is the lizard race, with its exclusive worship of Tanora, strong tendencies towards what this draft names Templars and Sanctificators and shunning of magic (named 'The Way of the Five' in this draft) intended to be inclued in a lore friendly way?]
Estrais responded with
No race specific settings/limits are planned.
Then Q replied with:
Then we might have a problem. The system written as above would completely go against the lizard race description on the website as well as what we do have in game.

It would reward playing the race otherwise, proving those following the lore wrong by actual in game wonders available to 'heretics', while 'true' lizards would be unable to play any of the magical classes, including the priests and templars that are depicted to be plentiful in their culture.

In the end it'd be a break of consistency between game mechanics and game lore/environment. Not all too great in regards of immersion and promotion of roleplay.
Apologies for all the qouting, but it gives the information.
With that said, what do people think, and primarily the Lizard players think about the issue of compatibility, considering the lore behind the Race regarding templars and their priests?

What I've come up with, without needing to fiddle with the lore goes a bit like this. Rather than forcing the Lizard community or players to now follow one of the lesser gods in their eyes, Tanora can remain one of the five, but at the same time a Shrine/alter can be built for the priest magic class with the goddess Zelphia. That way, the immersion can't be broke for the Lizard players, and it sticks friendly towards the already written lore.

What do people think?[/quote]

--------------------------------------------------



Was asked to translate this so here goes (please note that I did this in a hurry, so there might be some mistakes):
Po Will wrote: Ich habe in letzter Zeit einen Blick auf das Mantis geworfen und dabei fiel mir Folgendes auf:
Illarion wird drei exklusive Magieklassen beinhalten. Ein Charakter kann jeweils nur einer der magischen Klasse angehören, nie zwei oder allen dreien. Das Ändern der Klasse wird möglich sein, jedoch mit einem kompletten Skill- und Fertigkeitenverlust der alten Klasse einhergehen. Zwei magische Klassen ziehen ihre Macht aus einer der Göttergruppen, entweder den Fünf oder den Elf jungen GÖttern. Die dritte Klasse zieht ihre Macht aus der Natur selbst, der Welt, wie sie vor dem Erscheinen der Götter war. Für jede Klasse gibt es eine Auswahl von Handlungen, die auf direkte Effekte fokusiert sind, während der Rest auf "handwerkliche" Fertigkeiten beschränkt ist, deren erzeugte Gegenstände von jedem genutzt werden können. Jeder Magienutzer wird in der Lage sein, beide Arten von Handlungen zu nutzen, obwohl diese sich in ihrer Ausübung deutlich unterscheiden werden.

Der Weg der Fünf
Arcanians: Die mysteriösen Arcanians folgen dem Weg der Fünf und kombinieren geheime Runen, um magische Sprüche mit vernichtender Wirkung zu erwirken.
Glyphenschmiede: Unter Benutzung uralten Wissens, verzaubern Glyphenschmiede Schmuckstücke, die dann die Macht der Fünf kanalisieren.

Der Weg der Elf
Templer: Die Champions der Elf führen ihre gesegneten Kameraden in die Schlacht oder zum nächsten Bierfestival.
Sanctificators: Heilige Männer der Götter, die mächtige Artefakte mit göttlichem Schutz segnen.

Der Weg der Natur
Druiden: Eins mit der Natur, manipulieren die Druiden die Mächte, die die Welt Illarion geformt haben.
Alchemisten: Diese Kräuterexperten brauen mächtige Tränke im Namen der Elf, die die Fertigkeiten derer, die sie zu sich nehmen verstärken mögen, oder auch schlimme Bauchschmerzen verursachen.
Dies sieht für mich alles super aus, aber dann schrieb Qwert das hier:
Ich habe hiermit ein Problem bezüglich der Echsen-Lore:

Echsenmenschen werden als hingebungsvolle Anhänger einer (und nur einer) der fünf alten Gütter dargestellt, mit einer Gesellschaft die von Templern (als Palladine beschrieben) und Priestern angeführt wird. Außerdem wird ihnen nachgesagt, dass sie keine Magie anwenden, abgesehen von sehr wenigen Individuen, die sich weit von ihrer ursprünglichen Kultur zurückgezogen haben.

Wie soll diese Echsenrasse, die als absolute Tanoraanhänger, mit starken Tendenzen zur Ausschließung und Ächtung von dem, was in diesem Vorschlag als Templer und Sanctificators und Magie (und hier als Weg der Fünf bezeichnet) dargestellt wird unter Beachtung der Lore hier eingebaut werden?
Estralis antwortete folgendermaßen:
Keine Rassenspezifischen Regeln oder Ausnahmen sind in Planung.
Dem antwortete Q mit:
Dann haben wir womöglich ein Problem. Das oben beschriebene System geht gegen alles, was in der Beschreibung der Echsenrasse auf der Homepage und auch in der etablierten Lore im Spiel steht.

Das System würde dafür belohnen, eine Rasse gegen die eigentliche Lore zu spielen und diejenigen, die der echten Lore folgen zeigen, dass sie falschliegen, indem "Herätikern" der Zugang zu göttlichen Wundern ermöglicht wird. Gleichzeitig würden "echte" Echsen nicht in der Lage sein, jegliche der magischen Klassen, einschließlich der Priester zu spielen und Templer werden in ihrer Kultur als zahlreich dargestellt.

Letztendlich wäre das ein Bruch im Verhältnis zwischen Spielmechaniken und der Lore, was sich nicht sonderlich gut auf Immersion und Rollenspiel auswirken würde.
Entschuldigung wegen all der Zitate, aber sie beinhalten die wesentlichen Informationen.
Was hält die Spielerschaft und vor allem die Spieler der Echsen von diesem Problem mit der Kompatibilität bezüglich der Rassen-Lore und den Templern / Priestern?

Eine Möglichkeit die mir eingefallen ist, dies zu lösen, ohne dabei etwas an der Lore ändern zu müssen, ist das. Statt die Gemeindschaft der Echsenmenschen und deren Spieler dazu zu zwingen, jetzt einem dieser fünf jüngeren Götter zu folgen, könnte Tanora eine der Fünf bleiben, aber gleichzeitig könnte es einen Schrein / Altar für die Priesterklasse geben, an der die Göttin Zelphia angebetet werden kann. Dadurch wäre die Immersion für die Echsenspieler nicht gebrochen und es widerspricht sich nicht mit der bereits geschriebenen Lore.


Wie ist eure Meinung dazu?

Hierauf wurde dann diskutiert und Estralis stellte klar, dass diese Vorschläge und Konzepte im Mantis nicht in Fels gehauen sind, sondern sich durchaus noch ändern können. Außerdem wurde diskutiert, bzw. vorgeschlagen, jeglichen Bezug auf die Lore aus dem Konzept zu streichen.
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Mephistopheles »

Or magic can be magic and priesthood be priesthood lol

I've seen quite a few elven priests of the five, does that mean they can't be continue being priests once this system is introduced? Magic was always philosophized as the power of the five surely, but it never, ever was "The way of the Five" otherwise I'm pretty sure mages wouldn't have been such jerks :D Also pretty sure they don't really cover necromancy, blood magic, demonic magic etc etc, just doesn't seem like their style.

Leave magic as the broad subject that it always was, any change to that just murders this game. Priesthood should be the same, it should encompass all the gods, demi-gods included.

Anyway I think Estralis agrees with this. Anyone else have thoughts?
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by GolfLima »

big thanks to // großen Dank an Felbion Lijawyn
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Felbion Lijawyn »

Mephistopheles wrote:Or magic can be magic and priesthood be priesthood lol

I've seen quite a few elven priests of the five, does that mean they can't be continue being priests once this system is introduced? Magic was always philosophized as the power of the five surely, but it never, ever was "The way of the Five" otherwise I'm pretty sure mages wouldn't have been such jerks :D Also pretty sure they don't really cover necromancy, blood magic, demonic magic etc etc, just doesn't seem like their style.

Leave magic as the broad subject that it always was, any change to that just murders this game. Priesthood should be the same, it should encompass all the gods, demi-gods included.

Anyway I think Estralis agrees with this. Anyone else have thoughts?
So, I don't know how much I'm actually allowed to share, but I hope this is ok:

As Estralis mentioned, nothing is set in stone. We do have a collection of ideas for the new magic system(s),but those are still being discussed among the staff quite extensively and one of the most hotly discussed issues was the integration of the Five as a "fixed" lore aspect for the mage magic and the exclusion of them from the priest magic. As of now, nothing concrete has been decided and I'm sure when the times comes and the staff have finally agreed on a concept, Estralis or somebody else will share this with the players to get their input and the opportunity to suggest changes / adjustments. So please don't worry!

----------------------------------------------
Mephistopheles wrote:Oder man könnte Magie einfach Magie sein lassen und das Priestertum Priestertum lol

Ich habe recht oft Elfenpriester der Fünf gesehen. Bedeutet dies, dass diese nicht damit fortfahren werden können Priester zu sein, wenn das neue System rauskommt? Magie wurde sicher schon immer als die Macht der Fünf "philosophiert", aber es war nie "Der Weg der Fünf", sonst, da bin ich mir sicher, wären Magier nicht solche Fieslinge :D Außerdem bin ich mir ziemlich sicher, dass Nekromantie, Blutmagie, demonische Magie, usw. nicht von den Fünf mit eingeschlossen ist. Das scheint mir einfach nicht deren Stil zu sein.

Behaltet Magie als das breitgefächerte Thema, das sie schon immer war, jegliche Änderungen daran zerstören einfach das Spiel. Für das Priestertum gilt das gleiche. Es sollte alle Götter umfassen, einschließlich der Halbgötter.

Wie auch immer, ich denke Estralis stimmt dem zu. Hat sich sonst noch jemand Gedanken zum Thema gemacht?
Ich weiß nicht, wie viel ich verraten darf, aber ich hoffe, dass das hier ok ist:

Wie Estralis schon sagte, steht nichts fest. Wir haben eine Sammlung von ideen für das/die neue(n) Magiesystem(e), aber diese werden im Staff immernoch debattiert und eines der am hitzigsten diskutierten Themen war die Integration der Fünf als "fester" Lore-Aspekt für die Magie der Magier und der gleichzeitige Ausschluss selbiger aus der Priestermagie. Bis jetzt wurde noch nichts konkretes entschieden und ich bin mir sicher, dass, wenn die Zeit gekommen ist und der Staff sich einigen konnte, Estralis oder jemand anderes das Konzept veröffentlichen wird, sodass die Spieler die Möglichkeit haben, ihre Gedanken, Meinungen und mögliche Änderungsvorschläge anzubringen. Also sorgt euch bitte nicht!
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Po Will
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Po Will »

Cheers for the translations guys, I would have done so if my German wasn't so bad :)
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Re: Lizardrace compatibility with new purposed magic systems

Post by Fooser »

Aren't there NPC lizard mages?
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