Death

[Vern Kron]

I have been listening to people talk about death, both IG and ooc, and the vibe of it. Many say it is a mild inconvenience, but nothing that has a lasting effect on the character. Something might get broken, but you move on.

Well, as the current topics show, there is no real 'fear' of death IG, no 'weight' to player conflict, and a strong disdain for how MC currently works.

So how about upon a player killing a player, the dead player gains 2 million MC.

Then when people fight, there will be a negative consequence for the losing party, but one that is not so crippling that they can't handle it. Perhaps that number should be slightly smaller. From what I understand, an increase of that amount of MC would take roughly 5 hours, if the player is at a semi-reasonable amount of MC.

I know many do not like the MC system as it stands (and honestly, I believe the issue has more to do with rather the amount it takes in later levels to skill up, as opposed to the mc system itself.)

Please do not let those feelings of negativity of the mc system influence this topic. Do we believe death needs a stronger punishment, specifically between players? (And possibly gm driven quests)

[Mephistopheles]

I and a select few would rather see a drop of at least one item upon death for several reasons but alas i beat a long dead horse.

I'm not sure this is a good idea, I think there should be potential slight reward for player kills, not big but just enough to encourage conflict.

[Vern Kron]

I am not in favor of reward for player kills, because that hardcore encourages just repeat killing a person. Even if it is a bannable offense, the damage is very quickly done.

ALSO: This would encourage a ton of rage IG, and OOC, that would only serve to cause further rifts in the community. This seems the sort of thing that encourages players to play against one another, not with.

[Nitram]

Every disadvantages that lasts longer then a few seconds is a reason for IG and OOC rage of all kind.

Remember the time when there were rather harsh effects for the death of a character. We had many variations:

• 100% Bag loss, random inventory item loss and permanent skill loss (that is the first version I remember)
• Temporary attribute loss, 100% bag loss, random item loss
• Temporary attribute loss
• No effect at all
• what is the current state?

The first one resulted in A LOT of rage and quite a few quits. But I still liked it best. But who am I? In any case it was active the longest to this point and due to the tears and the crying but some players we started altering this stuff to what it is today.

This is a topic that needs to be touched very carefully. Always consider some bully coming up to your character and beating him up every other day just to get your items and because his character doesn't like the face of your character (just for the sake of a IG reason). Those things happened and will happen in case you can gain something (as in items) from the death of other characters. Okay some may do this just because. But that is another topic. In any case if you think about proposals on this topic, just think about such a character who keeps killing your one primary character where you have all your fancy items and friends that will not help. And this character keeps getting beaten up and looses all it's nice items/skills or has basically a permanent attribute reduction because he keep dying.

Regards,
Nitram

[Jupiter]

I would like random item drop + the current regeneration phase.

Where I would add that one should be able to get a magical or divine insurance for items. Like for 50% of the item worth you can buy an insurance. After every death by which you are carrying the item with you, the insurance is used and you need a new one; even if you wouldn't have lost the item.

But that is just my idea what I like. Personally and in no way considered if this is fitting for the game as a whole. As Nitram said whatever we do when it comes to death we need to think very carfeully.

[GolfLima]

Ich würde mir wünschen:

1) Verlust eines zufälligen Gegenstandes <--> Versicherung verschiedener Dinge möglich (( Preis abhängig vom Wert des Gegenstandes / Begrenzung der Anzahl der "aktiven" Versicherungen ))
2) Zeitweiliger Verlust von Fähigkeiten mit längerer Erholungsphase (( eventuell später Möglichkeit der Verkürzung durch Alchemisten/Druiden, Priester, Magier ? ))
3) jetzige Regeneration der Gesundheit

[Uhuru]

I do agree with certain things said here...

1) Nobody takes death in game seriously.
2) Any change made to death in game must be thought through very carefully before implemented.
3) Rewarding the killer(s) will lead to certain characters getting harassed, within the boundaries of the rules of Illarion.

MC: I'm not sure how this would tie into death. Yes, we could make it happen, but how would it be justified or RP'd? It isn't something people can see or understand usually. It isn't tangible. Therefore, it would be another non-event in most instances until it gets so high that character's learning slows to a point they get frustrated and quit? This isn't an option.

Insurance: This has been discussed. For the rich, this works well as a money sink. For our poorer new players, this may not be an option. It all depends on how it is implemented. As a percentage of the worth of items, including magical gems, it may be possible to work for all. However, I'd prefer to see a limit on how many items can be insured. For instance, if Uhuru can insure all of the items she wears and uses (armors and weapons), then where is the possible threat of loss? If we say you can only insure up to 5 items or something, or only gemmed items?

Random item drop: I'm not a huge fan, many are not. If we implement insurance, we should open this back up to discussion.

[Achae Eanstray]

I believe that people not taking death/severely hurt seriously, which is not all players, i.e. I have seen very good roleplay of someone severely hurt which, is a matter of roleplay and not engine problem. Hence, removing some item or doing something else to "make" the player who is roleplaying that char take going to the cross seriously is not doing anything for the char but addressing the player. Hence punish/reward the player. Understanding the roleplay is important but you also have to remember as Mitch pointed out in a post similar to this.. he is not planing to roleplay death when he steps away from his computer briefly and comes back with a char ghosted. http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=39345. Conflict and strife in game.. good. conflict and strife oocly, not good. I think the current proposal will cause the later and not help with the intent.

[Sammy Goldlieb]

Ich würde mir wünschen:

1) Verlust eines zufälligen Gegenstandes <--> Versicherung verschiedener Dinge möglich (( Preis abhängig vom Wert des Gegenstandes / Begrenzung der Anzahl der "aktiven" Versicherungen ))

Nein! keine Versicherung! So würden Schmiede endlich wieder was verdienen!

[nathi]

If you want to "punish" chars who was sent to the cross by changing the MC or another restrictions, than think about how hard that would be for new players/chars. And further, please don't reduce the fun in the game to zero. We are talking about maybe 40-50 active players, you should think about how to keep them in the game, and how to get new players.

just my two cents

nathi

[Banduk]

Please don’t punish anybody who was sent to the cross additional.

So how I will react if there is any danger for loss of equipment? I think back to Gobaith.
1. Avoid any fight including the related confrontations!
2. Better run away from RP instead of joining if you have expensive or not replaceable equipment!
3. Take any crappy equipment if you might come in a situation you may get killed!
4. If you see any strong bad guy on a short online player list and you don’t need urgently to play, you’ll do anything else except playing!
Result:
- Loss of RP
- Reduce the value of high level equipment
- Reduce the value of magic gems including the related ranks
- Reduce the money drain due to repair
- Less player
Maybe I’m the only player who doesn’t see fun in forced losing and reacts accordingly but I doubt.

You want to punish player who got knocked ot and do not play the deadly wounded. May I ask if it is really so bad that sending to the cross is not a real death? We play for fun not reality.
Anybody who wants to play the wounded will do so. He / she will do so more as more players are online. Someone who is barley alone IG should play the wounded for hors? Why?
Punishing the death by losing maybe not replaceable items or skills gained over month or work is the wrong way. Any expensive leaky insurance will not solve the issue.

Based on my opinion it is not good that one can go to work immediately after the cross even before he / she is recovered. But there might be a simple no punishing way.
In the moment you was sent to the cross all you have in hand is moved to bag. Before you are recovered you can’t take anything in hand. The only work you can do now is collecting apples or sorting your chest but that’s ok. So nobody has to starve but you can’t use any tool or weapon.
May I ask you, what you’d do in such a situation? I’d play the wounded.

[Mephistopheles]

Please don’t punish anybody who was sent to the cross additional.

So how I will react if there is any danger for loss of equipment? I think back to Gobaith.
1. Avoid any fight including the related confrontations!
2. Better run away from RP instead of joining if you have expensive or not replaceable equipment!
3. Take any crappy equipment if you might come in a situation you may get killed!
4. If you see any strong bad guy on a short online player list and you don’t need urgently to play, you’ll do anything else except playing!
Result:
- Loss of RP
- Reduce the value of high level equipment
- Reduce the value of magic gems including the related ranks
- Reduce the money drain due to repair
- Less player
Maybe I’m the only player who doesn’t see fun in forced losing and reacts accordingly but I doubt.

You want to punish player who got knocked ot and do not play the deadly wounded. May I ask if it is really so bad that sending to the cross is not a real death? We play for fun not reality.
Anybody who wants to play the wounded will do so. He / she will do so more as more players are online. Someone who is barley alone IG should play the wounded for hors? Why?
Punishing the death by losing maybe not replaceable items or skills gained over month or work is the wrong way. Any expensive leaky insurance will not solve the issue.

Based on my opinion it is not good that one can go to work immediately after the cross even before he / she is recovered. But there might be a simple no punishing way.
In the moment you was sent to the cross all you have in hand is moved to bag. Before you are recovered you can’t take anything in hand. The only work you can do now is collecting apples or sorting your chest but that’s ok. So nobody has to starve but you can’t use any tool or weapon.
May I ask you, what you’d do in such a situation? I’d play the wounded.

Sorry but I disagree with a few of your points, however I understand why people don't want to even slightly go back to the old way of doing things.

Illarion wishes to target a larger player base, but yet it tries so hard to cater to a casual player base that just seems to want everything easily.

Your first point, "less players" is obviously wrong, when it came to actual good roleplay and conflict the Gobaith client thrived, sure it lacked paperdolling and a multitude of other things this client provides, what we are sorely lacking now is a break from this stagnancy ingame. You can do that by trying to do more things ingame that provoke reactions from people rather than just meandering around town working and crafting. We had more active players when there was a drop on death than now. There was actual competition, and yes theres always going to be a few bad apples, but as a player who likes to play evil chars primarily, I've never just gone out all willy nilly to pk people.

Your second point, "Better to run away from rp than to stay" uhh, have you been on lately? During the day I often try to greet people and they just blatantly ignore me and continue on with their work or crafting as if my char didn't exist. The stagnancy ingame is annoying to players like me who like the dynamic player involvement where you had no idea what would happen.

"Use crappy equipment in dangerous situations" What do people do now in dangerous situations? Nothing, they scoff at it. oh hey look theres a burning building, completly and hopelessly engulfed in flame to the point that modern firefighting could not save it... So lets walk into it MULTIPLE TIMES and act like theres no possibility of it collapsing. Sure wonderful.. A bandit corners a citizen in the dark alley, what do they do, "oh yeah? I'll just tell the guards after you send me to the cross so you'll be hunted" ... Is this seriously people's idea of fun roleplay? And why can I walk around the world of illarion with hundreds of gold in my pack with no fear of it being taken from me? because it can't.. obviously.

"If you see a strong bad guy in the online list then don't log in" Really? I like to log in and occasionally provoke reactions from characters that actually react with good roleplay and even a good bit of conflict. If it's a bad guy with poor rp who just likes to pk people for their stuff, thats a gm/moderator issue, not a feature issue. And those guys don't last long anyway cus theres ALOT of good chars that like to spend their time hunting down douch bags

"reduction in Value of equipment and gems" There is no value to equipment and gems. Theres no flow of items like the Gobaith client. If theres even a miniscule chance to lose an item this creates a whole new world of trade and drive. Keep in mind the original proposal for item drop on death was one item from the person's inventory or bag. It could be a piece of armor, or a piece of coal. How horrible is that, that you can't lose one item from your inventory?

"less players" I think many fail to realize that we've lost much of our player base due to a stagnancy of the player involvement.

As I've said I may just be beating a dead horse here, but I really fail to see how this so badly hurts illarion. Theres a worry about abuse, if it can be abused it will be that needs to be understood. However it's up to you as a player to promote good roleplay and it's up to the gms to punish poor roleplay and abuse.

[Estralis Seborian]

MC consequences are not an option.

[Drathe]

I've got to admit, I just kill my character sometimes to get a quick ride back to town and I know I'm not the only one who does this.

Death needs consequences in game. Excitement comes from risk Vs reward. There is no risk.

[Nitram]

The question is really what kind of consequences should the death of a character have?

I could think of:

• Temporary effects
  • Attribute loss
  • Skill loss
  • Regeneration reduction (current)
• Permanent effects
  • Skill loss
  • Item dropping
  • Item damaging (current)

You could surely always build in something really nasty like paying at the cross to get revived without permanent skill loss.

But other then that I have no real ideas.

Nitram

[Jupiter]

Chance that an evil shadow of yourself is spawned, haunting the world. Has the same skills, attributes and equipmeant you had when you died.

You can either kill it or do some fancy other stuff (some thing with gods and such) to get rid of it.

Of course, on might reason why you would want to get rid of that being. I would say to many the existing of that thing itself would be "insulting". So there is a roleplay reaso nto get rid of it. But maybe it could also have some other side effects.

[Uhuru]

Chance that an evil shadow of yourself is spawned, haunting the world. Has the same skills, attributes and equipmeant you had when you died.

You can either kill it or do some fancy other stuff (some thing with gods and such) to get rid of it.

Of course, on might reason why you would want to get rid of that being. I would say to many the existing of that thing itself would be "insulting". So there is a roleplay reaso nto get rid of it. But maybe it could also have some other side effects.

Oh, I like this, but only if the original character is slightly weakened while it lives! Oh ya, that would be nice.

[Kamilar]

If death is going to be given more serious consequences, there has to be more enforcement of RP. I don't mind the no-consequence PK but if I have to live with some consequences for my character, I expect the no-RP attacks to likewise have consequences for those players that just have to do it.

[Achae Eanstray]

Effects of the return from Cherga:
It seems soooo much easier to simply carry a portal rather then going ooc and allowing your char to be killed ...however I would suggest the only other possibility for "death" ( if after a vote it is decided we need one at all that is )... would be to increase the time it takes to get back to full strength.. this should include in game time only (not allowing someone to return to full strength if log and come back) and encourage roleplay as there wouldn't be much else a char could do. It may also encourage more medic/druid interaction and for longer. This would be less player punishment and more of a roleplay push which would go along with the game idea.


Potions:
Another addition would be to make potions more effective i.e. able to use when actively fighting a monster. Have the NPC in towns sell healing potions at twice the price of what they are sold for now just in case there is no one around to buy one from.

[Vern Kron]

I promise you that people will sell the health potions to almost match the NPC price.

[Estralis Seborian]

• Temporary effects
  • Attribute loss
  • Skill loss
  • Regeneration reduction (current)
• Permanent effects
  • Skill loss
  • Item dropping
  • Item damaging (current)

Attributes are also lowered temporarily. This means that you learn skills slower until you have recovered.

The issue of "kill taxi" is a well known problem of most MMORPGs: Death penalties are considered less harsh than walking all the distance. Perhaps someone wants to investigate how other games handle this? I am not sure we need more severe individual death penalties, by the way. I still think we should think beyond punishing the individual player but maybe put a strain on the faction as a whole? At least this has been the plan long ago.

[Kamilar]

Maybe count the deaths and post them on the high scores list as a hall of shame giving the wrong kind of glory to the faction.

This is assuming that the no-RP attacks are being managed. Those are really boring and with larger consequences, the death system becomes an abusable source of entertainment for players that can't claim attention any other way.

[Ragorn]

Maybe count the deaths and post them on the high scores list as a hall of shame giving the wrong kind of glory to the faction.

This is assuming that the no-RP attacks are being managed. Those are really boring and with larger consequences, the death system becomes an abusable source of entertainment for players that can't claim attention any other way.

A "hall of shame" counting PvM deaths is a very idea!

[Ragorn]

It should be distinguished between PvM and PvP death.

In PvM, the current punishment is enough in my opinion: 30 min recovering time, damage of the gear, and maybe some additional penalty from the last update ("Dying is working properly again. Equipment may be damaged."), where I do not really know, what changed, since there already was some damage before. If some use ghosting to travel home, it is okay for me, since there is already a penalty for them. I personally do not use the kill taxi function, but I am always annoyed, if my chars get ghosted, since this in 99% of the cases happens due to bugs of that game (e.g. can't move away because the map is shit, mulitple monsters directly spawned at the entrance of a dungeon/room, my char can not drink a potion, since the attack mode cannot be disabled, and so on).

In PvP, death/ghosting should be handled completely different. First, "killing" a char should be agreed on both sides. Since there are (currently: have been) too many immature players, PvP always should be played under control of an experienced GM. Since PvP is roll play, there is no need for a punishment like in PvM.

A changed engine support for PvP could be:
- Since "training" should be possible: Maybe restrict it to special areas (e.g. training rooms). If the opponent is thrown back, it should not be possible to attack. Same if the opponent has too low hp.
- Since attacking in towns is mostly bad rp (the attacker for example ignores the guards), attacking should completely be disabled in towns
- Attacking in the wilderness: Since this has to be aggreed by both players, attacking should cause a request on the opponents char, which has the option to agree or not agree. RP wise not agreeing can be seen as fleeing from being attacked. Fleeing should always be possible. Trapping could be seen as forced rp and as (rp) rulebreak.

Remember, playing this game should be fun. Forcing PvP might be fun for the attacker, but not for the opponent.

Beeing ghosted in PvM never is fun. The pre update penaltiy on ghosting already was annoying. I am wondering what additional penalty "Dying is working properly again. Equipment may be damaged." will add to the game.

[Vern Kron]

It should be distinguished between PvM and PvP death.

In PvM, the current punishment is enough in my opinion: 30 min recovering time, damage of the gear, and maybe some additional penalty from the last update ("Dying is working properly again. Equipment may be damaged."), where I do not really know, what changed, since there already was some damage before. If some use ghosting to travel home, it is okay for me, since there is already a penalty for them. I personally do not use the kill taxi function, but I am always annoyed, if my chars get ghosted, since this in 99% of the cases happens due to bugs of that game (e.g. can't move away because the map is shit, mulitple monsters directly spawned at the entrance of a dungeon/room, my char can not drink a potion, since the attack mode cannot be disabled, and so on).

First, let me put your mind at ease: From 3 days ago to now, there is no difference in the clouding of your character. The engine may handle it a little differently, but the effects are the same. There was a very small time frame where you were not taking armor durability damage for being clouded. This was fixed.

Also, if you have issues with the map causing problems, the only way for it to get fixed is for it to be known. Now, if you back your character into a corner and die for that reason, that is not map error, that is tactical error on the part of the player. This isn't a slam, it isn't me trying to anger you or call you stupid, but there are others who would assume that if they die for any cause, then its the games fault and not theirs.

In PvP, death/ghosting should be handled completely different. First, "killing" a char should be agreed on both sides. Since there are (currently: have been) too many immature players, PvP always should be played under control of an experienced GM. Since PvP is roll play, there is no need for a punishment like in PvM.

A changed engine support for PvP could be:
- Since "training" should be possible: Maybe restrict it to special areas (e.g. training rooms). If the opponent is thrown back, it should not be possible to attack. Same if the opponent has too low hp.
- Since attacking in towns is mostly bad rp (the attacker for example ignores the guards), attacking should completely be disabled in towns
- Attacking in the wilderness: Since this has to be aggreed by both players, attacking should cause a request on the opponents char, which has the option to agree or not agree. RP wise not agreeing can be seen as fleeing from being attacked. Fleeing should always be possible. Trapping could be seen as forced rp and as (rp) rulebreak.

Remember, playing this game should be fun. Forcing PvP might be fun for the attacker, but not for the opponent.

Beeing ghosted in PvM never is fun. The pre update penaltiy on ghosting already was annoying. I am wondering what additional penalty "Dying is working properly again. Equipment may be damaged." will add to the game.

I fully agree with you that PvP and PvM should be handled differently. My issue with your suggestion rests on the 'gm sanctioned only' pvp. If your character is a complete tool to an angry rampaging orc, than the orc should have the possibility to beat you and cloud you. While the RP of the situation is awful, people in RL harm others without care for guards. Waiting for a GM to get online simply is not practical and puts the staff under further obligation to bring the RP forward.

I fully agree with the idea that pvp should be an agreed upon event. Very much so. However, it can also work like the following.
Human: Orcs are stupid! Kill all the orcs. Humans 4eva!
Orc: ((Listen, if you continue in jeering the orc, he will try to kill you in combat.))
Orc: #me turns to the human, with an angry gaze.
It is at this point that the human must decide what their actions will be. Will they stop? Or will they continue knowing full well there will be a fight?

If the human continues, he is granting consent to a fight.

[Mephistopheles]

Why does there need to be an out of character exchange? Why can't players realize that this is a roleplaying game where if you're in a certain guild you'll have certain people not like you and try to provoke, attack, or just mess with you.

This is/should be a dynamic world where anything can happen, and in dynamic realistic worlds people have feelings and motives and triggers. If you cross a Galmairian in a business deal, expect something to happen, if you publicly bash a cultist's god, then expect something to happen, if you walk into a dark alley at night,then expect something to happen.
Conflict isnt always just going out willy nilly and player killing thats an idea from other mmos, conflict should have an enriched dialogue and each char should have their own motivations. I don't frown on the person who wants to be a crafter or campfire roleplayer so why should they be so squimish about a grand warrior with goals to make kingdoms florish or to bring them to ruin, or the mage that would bring deatruction on those who openly opose his ideals?

Why is this so difficult to understand? This isnt runescape or one of those other mmos where rp doesnt really exist.

I'm so sick of the community being divided. Either this is a real rpg or its not.

[Kamilar]

@ Mephistopheles

I agree that OOC isn't necessary in every instance. Personally, I love a magnificently played conflict. Grand warrior schemes? Thieves? If it means great roleplay, bring it.

What I don't like is an attack that makes no sense in game and brings no roleplay opportunity for me. A PvP attack is not the same as roleplaying conflict and some players just don't understand that nuance. Playing conflict is difficult and can lead to RL hurt feelings and sometimes a little OOC might help minimize the bad feelings. I'd rather have no conflict than have badly played and senseless conflict. And I personally don't mind a little OOC check in.

Just one girl's opinion.

[Giles Lief]

There's one problem I can see with this. I used to play a game called Tibia, where you would randomly drop items on death. People would just carry, 1 clay, 1 coal, 1 iron ore, so when they died they have a like 1/50 chance in losing something good, and really high chance of dropping a junk item. I might be wrong, but I feel like it's all that would happen.

[Kamilar]

@ Giles:

The death drop system we had before wasn't completely random. We had 100% bag drop and the loss of one equipped item. I don't remember for sure if belt inventory was involved but I don't think so. That resulted in people keeping their best stuff always in the depot. And why have something nice if you can't use it? It also led to PvP abuse with players trying to get those items and aggravate one another. It failed to create excellent death/injury roleplay.

My opinion: I don't think reviving this or implementing something similar will yield any different results than what we had before. What we have now at least doesn't involve a bunch of OOC unhappiness.

[Nitram]

The old dropping dropped the bag in all cases and every single item had a chance of I think 10% to be dropped.

So if you were "lucky" you only dropped the bag. But look into the bag of your character and tell me that it is okay to loose all that stuff.

Nitram