Death

Here you can make and discuss suggestions to improve the game. / Hier kannst du Vorschläge einreichen und diskutieren um das Spiel zu verbessern.

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Mephistopheles
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Re: Death

Post by Mephistopheles »

My proposal before was not to bring back to old way of handling drops on death, it was to implement insurance for up to three items, cost increasing with each item. (proposed prices I think was 2 gold for the first insured item, 4 for the second, and 6 for the last.) In said proposal you lost only 1 item (excluding bag) upon death. Newly made chars were excluded from this feature also. No skill loss, no mc mutilation etc etc.

This proposal was fervently spoke against and so it was dropped in favor of more brainstorming.
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Death

Post by Tyan Masines »

Jupiter wrote:Thanks for your feedback, RobinValentine. Let me try to reply to some of your points.
Make death meaningful and you drop everything on death, right now it's pathetic and I used it to get back to Galmair cuz I forgot to buy a book (and death can be cheaper than buying the book depending on what you are wearing!). With this a town guard would have reason other than RP, evil characters can have more purpose, and more jobs could arise. People would need body guards which would cause more RP relationships as people would be more inclined to play with people they usually don't, transporting goods would be more valuable because now those peaceful characters that are making bank need someone to guard their goods, and so on.
Death consequences are a classical topic to debate in Illarion :/
Personally, I would agree with you. I would like more serious death consequences. Feel free to add ideas here http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=39570
Maybe one day we find something which is both, serious and fun.
In light of this. I believe individual character death punishment is a bad idea, while punishing groups might be a way. If e.g. the MC is increased by 2 million per death, re-killing becomes and issue, and new players who run into the wild and die will be punished for being new. Not a good idea. The same goes for loss of equipment, etc.

The way might be to give large quests more gravity. Take Mas. Can we as the players actually lose Mas? Or any great battle? We can not. If there are only three people around for a battle, the GM spawns fewer monsters. And if even those three people die, the town does not get overrun, the walls do not get crumbled. Nothing happens. Actually gaining allies and motivating people to fight for you is merely important when fighting other players. It is completely irrelevant when fighting mobs. If you want quests and character death to be more meaningful, add meaning to the outcome of quests and furthermore, add the option to actually fail quests, including severe consequences for daily ig life.

It comes down to that technical restrictions are a bad idea (like gaining MC on death) and roleplay/GM driven consequences are a good idea, which should be logical reading the homepage that claims Illarion is focused on true role playing. And that includes no safe zones.
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Nitram
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Re: Death

Post by Nitram »

This entire thing shouldn't be a topic in a good RP environment. Because looking at this from a proper roleplaying perspective death is something a character would avoid if possible. At the very least it is a unpleasant experience for the character to die.

Why is it a issue anyway? Because most of us are lazy roleplayers when nobody is looking.

All in all I agree with Tyan. Punishing the group sounds like a better idea. In addition to what was already said, I thinks things like a impact on the town (treasury) could be added in case of characters dying. That could be linked to all deaths or only to deaths by players of another town that is in a conflict state.

Nitram
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Death

Post by Tyan Masines »

Nitram wrote:All in all I agree with Tyan. Punishing the group sounds like a better idea. In addition to what was already said, I thinks things like a impact on the town (treasury) could be added in case of characters dying. That could be linked to all deaths or only to deaths by players of another town that is in a conflict state.
Thank you, but it was not 100% what I meant. I was speaking against technical punishment as well as against individual punishment. Having a town-wide fee for death would be a technical punishment, and is prone to abuse. It will create more work for GMs and Devs since it is prone to abuse and does not add to Roleplay immersion.

What I meant was that quests have Roleplay consequences on the game world. Make players feel like their choices, their victories and their defeats have an impact on the game world! That's how all modern games are measured, and that's how this game has to be measured as well. And if we read through what the new player wrote, it is exactly what he meant. The stuff he did ingame did not seem to have any meaning, any impact, to him.

If players fail to protect a gate during a monster attack, have that gate get destroyed. It would have to be rebuilt after, or left neglected if no support can be found. If a town loses a major battle against a foe, have that foe raise extra taxes on people in that town. If they win a major battle, give them goodies (not extra gems as they imbalance the game already), like tax relief, free treasure maps, etc.

1.) Create an atmosphere in which choices and outcomes of players matter.
2.) Reward them with things that actually keep them ingame by giving them follow up tasks, of positive or negtive nature.

The people who teleport back to town by dieing are not the problem here. That'll always happen, and generally, Illarion players are good enough Roleplayers to not abuse this too much.
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GolfLima
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Re: Death

Post by GolfLima »

:arrow: yes, i like the idea of some more consequences of charakter death
Tyan Masines wrote:If players fail to protect a gate during a monster attack, have that gate get destroyed. It would have to be rebuilt after, or left neglected if no support can be found. If a town loses a major battle against a foe, have that foe raise extra taxes on people in that town. If they win a major battle, give them goodies (not extra gems as they imbalance the game already), like tax relief, free treasure maps, etc.
:arrow: if i remember right in most of the "big" fights again monsters charakters of all towns are involved
:arrow: who will decide what charakter has played a mayor part to get a "goodie" / get a free treasure map
==> may be this is a way to hold some players but in my eyes it is very difficult to prevent a feeling of inbalance / discriminiation of some other players

GER: Kurzzusammenfassung
-> ich mag die Idee das ein "Charaktertod" ein paar mehr Konsequenzen hat
Tyan Masines hat etwas über mögliche Konsequenzen (gute, sowie auch schlechte) für Städte / Bevölkerungsgruppen geschrieben
-> an den meisten großen Kämpfen sind Spieler aus allen Städten beteiligt
-> wer entscheidet über welche Konsequenzen für welchen Spieler ("Goodies")
==> möglicherweise sind "Goodies" ein Weg aber der beinhaltet auch die Gefaht das ishc andere Spieler ungleich behandelt fühlen
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Death

Post by Tyan Masines »

GolfLima wrote: :arrow: if i remember right in most of the "big" fights again monsters charakters of all towns are involved.
Consequences could as well be applied to the whole country of Illarion should it get conquered. I also still remember the "drought" questline from the old client. It affected the whole land over a long period of time, and I remember it fondly.

But what does this have to do with character death? Well, it is not the technical aspect of character death that should be reworked/rethought, but the roleplay aspect. I said it before, if GMs make big events, include the possibility to fail those and include consequences. -> Immersion and meaningful playtime. The rule "the good guys will always win" is a bad one.

For a technical proposal, is it possible to distinguish between whether a character was killed by a monster or if it has been a player character? If so, the time it needs to recover from death could be enlarged for PvP deaths. It would not hurt Newbies as they mainly die by running into monsters and will give big player based battles more gravity.
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Djironnyma
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Re: Death

Post by Djironnyma »

Tyan Masines wrote:I said it before, if GMs make big events, include the possibility to fail those and include consequences. -> Immersion and meaningful playtime. The rule "the good guys will always win" is a bad one.
I agree with you that there is less fun in a quest if there is no risk. But i dont have the feeling that the good guys ever win. As two recent examples the last three expeditions to mount Letma failed more or less and some of our order were cursed for attacking Phelmon.
I also remember serval rituals my char had done where I was told that if something go wrong / if we make a mistake it would have serious bad consequent up till permadeath. One (for me) daily present negative quest outcome is, that my char is a (more or less) human and not a elf like it was original planned.

Anyway as said I agree with you that the option to lose and the consequence from it should be more present.
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Lia
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Re: Death

Post by Lia »

Gegenstände verlieren ist KEINE Option.
Wenn ich mich an Gobiath erinner , wurde man damals so oft von "Bösen Leuten" getötet, nur damit sie sich bereichern können.
Das ist mehr als nur nervig und hatte auch nichts mehr mit rp zu tun.

Man würde kaum noch raus gehen, man könnte ja sterben oder irgendwelche overpowerten Bösewichte kommen und haun ein einfach mal um, nur um sich zu bereichern.
Teilweise auch ohne rp.

das würde nur den Spaß nehmen und damit auch die Lust.
Und ohne Lust, kommt keiner online.

So wie es jetzt ist finde ich es in Ordnung. Die Rüstung, Waffen werden beschädigt und sind entsprechend nicht mehr so gut wie vorher.


-----------------------------------------------------------

losing items is NO option .
When i reminisce Gobiath , it was at the time as often killed by " evil people " , just so they can get rich .
This is more than just annoying , and had nothing to do with rp .


One would hardly go out , you could just die , or any overpowered villains come and kill you just to enrich only to find himself .

Mostly without rp .


that would just take the fun and hence the desire .
And without desire , no one comes online .

As it is now I find it okay . The armor, weapons are damaged and are accordingly no longer as good as before .
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GolfLima
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Re: Death

Post by GolfLima »

Lia wrote:So wie es jetzt ist finde ich es in Ordnung. Die Rüstung, Waffen werden beschädigt und sind entsprechend nicht mehr so gut wie vorher.
:arrow: nur das es unter den jetzigen Bedingungen total sinnlos ist einen Handwerker (Schmied / Schreiner / Schneider und damit auch Bergmann, Holzfäller u.ä.) zu spielen -> Dinge gehen NIE wirklich kaputt und so ziemlich JEDER hat inzwischen die beste Rüstung zw. die, welche er gerne haben möchte :arrow: man darf also auf Bauer, Koch, Brauer, Angler o.ä. "umschulen"
:arrow: under the conditions we have now it is totally senseless to play a crafter (smith, carpenter, tailor, miner, woodcutter and smoething like that) -> things do not realy break and everyone has best armor or the armor he wants to have :arrow: so you may change to farmer, cook, brewer, fisherman or something like that
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Lia
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Re: Death

Post by Lia »

GolfLima wrote:
Lia wrote:So wie es jetzt ist finde ich es in Ordnung. Die Rüstung, Waffen werden beschädigt und sind entsprechend nicht mehr so gut wie vorher.
:arrow: nur das es unter den jetzigen Bedingungen total sinnlos ist einen Handwerker (Schmied / Schreiner / Schneider und damit auch Bergmann, Holzfäller u.ä.) zu spielen -> Dinge gehen NIE wirklich kaputt und so ziemlich JEDER hat inzwischen die beste Rüstung zw. die, welche er gerne haben möchte :arrow: man darf also auf Bauer, Koch, Brauer, Angler o.ä. "umschulen"
:arrow: under the conditions we have now it is totally senseless to play a crafter (smith, carpenter, tailor, miner, woodcutter and smoething like that) -> things do not realy break and everyone has best armor or the armor he wants to have :arrow: so you may change to farmer, cook, brewer, fisherman or something like that
Nun dann nimmt die Rüstung eben mehr schaden. bzw nach diversen Reperaturen läßt sie sich Rüstung nicht mehr wieder auf "neu" Zustand bringen, sondern wird ab dann immer weniger, bis sie irgendwann zerbricht.
Nur würde ich mir dann wünschen, das Edelsteine dann genauso raus brechen wie man sie eingesetzt hat. Den das wäre sonst ein sehr extremer Verlust. (wenn die Edelsteine hoch waren)


Well then , the armor will give more harm . or after various repairs it can no longer be armor back to " new" condition bring , but will from then less and less until it breaks sometime .
Only I would like to see , then break the gems just out how to set them up. Because that would be otherwise a very extreme loss . ( If the gems were high )


Und bei normalen Kleidungsstücken, wie Hemden, Kleidern Umhängen nutzt es sich mit der Zeit ab und läßt sich insgesamt zum Beispiel 10 mal reparieren bevor sie zerfällt.


And in normal garments , such as shirts , dresses cloaks it will wear out over time and can be a total of , for example, 10 times repaired before it breaks .

Die Repair NPC können dann, wenn die Rüstung oder Kleidungsstücke nicht mehr reparieren lassen so etwas sagen wie: "Tut mir leid, hier kann ich nichts mehr tun, ihr braucht etwas Neues." Und dann hat man Zeit von zB 2 rl Wochen bevor die Rüstung zerbricht und die Kleidung zerfällt. (an aktiver Zeit gemessen. Also wenn man 14 Tage nach dieser Aussage online war)

The Repair NPC can if the armor or clothing no longer be repaired say something like : " . I'm sorry , here I can not do anything , you need something new " And then you have the time of example 2 rl weeks before the armor breaks and disintegrates the clothing . ( Considering its active time . So if one was 14 days after this statement online )
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Karrock
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Re: Death

Post by Karrock »

I have not read most but I should show my idea.
First I explain why it's good idea:

  • We can't implement losing skills because they are too many to raise them all.
  • We can't implement losing items because we have gem system and such a lost would be heavy.
Instead that we can implement losing attributes when to return to 100% of points char would have to work on them. By doing things which would give experience points and at trainer character would say how many points he want to spend on what attribute (or it just would return to normal state). Using trainer could be by pay.
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GolfLima
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Re: Death

Post by GolfLima »

Karrock wrote:Instead that we can implement losing attributes when to return to 100% of points char would have to work on them. By doing things which would give experience points and at trainer character would say how many points he want to spend on what attribute (or it just would return to normal state). Using trainer could be by pay.
:arrow: sorry cant follow you - may be my english is to bad :cry:
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Karrock
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Re: Death

Post by Karrock »

GolfLima wrote:
Karrock wrote:Instead that we can implement losing attributes when to return to 100% of points char would have to work on them. By doing things which would give experience points and at trainer character would say how many points he want to spend on what attribute (or it just would return to normal state). Using trainer could be by pay.
:arrow: sorry cant follow you - may be my english is to bad :cry:
Sorry Im not best english speaker. Summary is: after you die you lose attributes permanently and after that you must to do any work (what work doesn't matter) to get experience points for buying back attributes from trainer (by money and points, or just only by experience points).

It's idea from LP muds where characters don't lose skills after death and only all items drop on ground and character loses 1/3 of level (level is amount of points at attributes there). There characters can set gain of points from sum of collected expereince points on attributes at training room. Process is called there meditation. You can set how much from your points are going on STR and other attributes by percents. It can be done by word commands. No special graphics are needed.

TO BELOW: I didn't say you need to fight to get back your attributes. You can earn points doing other things. You don't lose skills.
But okay I understand what do you mean.
Last edited by Karrock on Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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GolfLima
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Re: Death

Post by GolfLima »

Karrock wrote:Summary is: after you die you lose attributes permanently and after that you must to do any work (what work doesn't matter) to get experience points for buying back attributes from trainer (by money and points, or just only by experience points).
:arrow: this realy much prefer advanced fighters - i dont like this idea ( if you are a newby and intends to pay a peaceful charakter -> than YOU´re the LOOSER :cry: )
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Kamilar
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Re: Death

Post by Kamilar »

There seems to be an uptick in discussion over the death system lately which is making me curious so I'm going to toss a couple questions out there...

Do you guys think the shrinking player base is the result of a no-consequence death system? Is this where Illarion's limited development time would best be spent?

I personally don't think so. The old death system with its heavy consequences led some players to PK because they thought it was fun to abuse the game engine to rape other players. I don't personally think restoring that kind of atmosphere will improve things. Of all the changes that Illarion underwent, removing the griefing around the death system is hands-down my absolute favorite.
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