Death

[Hew Keenaxe]

OK, sorry. I am sure most wont like this, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. But death NEEDS to have some more meaning. I am so tired of facing characters that have no fear of harm or death. Even Hew fears death. He always worries that Cherga may keep him this time. And he is in harms way often. But too many times I see (characters) not fearing harm at all. i think myself fairly tough, though growing to damn old, but the idea of being punched in the face makes my think twice, though not often enough.
Here, IG, faced with a sword and wearing no armor, they will almost always stand with no fear. That is poor RP, but it is because there is no downside for them and they know it. Nothing to repair if you dont have anything. And even if they do, what a few coins and right back at it. WE used to lose items and levels. As much as this would hurt Hew I think we need to go back to that. Death means you drop your bag and lose one random level of skill.
Make it count. or it dont count. its just a few coins and a cool off period.

[Mrparpal]

I feel that any good roleplayer would and should have the dignity to hold some form of realistic state of mind. If they don't behave properly as one should, the dishonor to their credibility should be a bad enough punishment as is.

Not to mention how it would make the game incredibly unfriendly to noobs. If there was a grace period for noobs I'd consider supporting the idea.

[Achae Eanstray]

Who do you want to punish, the character or the player?

That is poor RP, but it is because there is no downside for them and they know it.

A character wouldn't know the "downside" A character that is roleplayed the way they should be would already be scared of death....the one that isn't or wears no armor and uses oocly information such as "there is no punishment..." is not roleplayed correctly. The player of that character needs to learn better roleplay. To add punishment to this i.e. removing something at "going to the cross" will simply make players frustrated, it would have nothing to do with the character nor teach good roleplay options.

These are past Mantis projects on death and the punishment:
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=9683
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=10226
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=10232
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=6790

For those that don't have Mantis it is simple to sign up for.

Illarion characters however don't "die" permanently unless the player/GM wishes, they are returned by Cherga so basically we are roleplay pain/hurt near death? The "weakness" after the cross and decrease in armor to me is enough for the character. Encouraging good roleplay is another option.

It is usually best to find a reward system rather then a punishment system which would include returning back to a system that most seem to think didn't work. Going back to loosing bag and skill loss would just prevent exploration from some characters, ooc information would take the fun out of playing the game to others. None of that would encourage good roleplay, it would more likely increase player versus player frustration with plenty of ooc arguments with PvP and monster complaints with PvE...most would also avoid dungeons and carrying anything they don't wish to loose as pre VBU habit.

[Ufedhin]

OK, sorry. I am sure most wont like this, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. But death NEEDS to have some more meaning. I am so tired of facing characters that have no fear of harm or death. Even Hew fears death. He always worries that Cherga may keep him this time. And he is in harms way often. But too many times I see (characters) not fearing harm at all. i think myself fairly tough, though growing to damn old, but the idea of being punched in the face makes my think twice, though not often enough.
Here, IG, faced with a sword and wearing no armor, they will almost always stand with no fear. That is poor RP, but it is because there is no downside for them and they know it. Nothing to repair if you dont have anything. And even if they do, what a few coins and right back at it. WE used to lose items and levels. As much as this would hurt Hew I think we need to go back to that. Death means you drop your bag and lose one random level of skill.
Make it count. or it dont count. its just a few coins and a cool off period.

Been howled about before Hew (see numerous mantis tickets),unfortunately the cotton wool brigade wont budge on it they seem to think its just peachy that nobody loses anything or even get there hair mussed up at death.I know its harking back to the old Gobiath(as many still do) again but hell, the tension and adrenalin at times to stay alive was so addictive ! death then was definately a horrible event ,but vastly preferable to this mushy ,soft, blah, blah,blah.... option where stuck with.
It is a great shame that with advent of the new game they threw not only the bath water away but also the baby.Far too many good game ideas when west.(this is not ment as a stab at anyone , i just liked to many of Gobiaths harder options and in a strange way they still fuel my hopes for this game.)

[Kamilar]

The old system with the item drop and skill loss on death is not something I'd like to see restored. There was too much PvP abuse and also with paperdolling the item loss becomes a much larger RP issue when someone loses their pants on ghosting. No forced nudity please. Removing the potential for abuse has been only beneficial.

If there are individual instances of poor RP, those should be handled case by case with game staff. However, I don't think anyone should be forced into roleplaying something if it isn't fun on both sides. Playing with an edgy character requires a tremendous sensitivity on the player end for both sides. If someone doesn't want to participate in an RP for whatever reason, they should have the freedom to walk away.

First and foremost, this is a game and games should be fun.

[Alytys Lamar]

The old system with the item drop and skill loss on death is not something I'd like to see restored. There was too much PvP abuse and also with paperdolling the item loss becomes a much larger RP issue when someone loses their pants on ghosting. No forced nudity please. Removing the potential for abuse has been only beneficial.

If there are individual instances of poor RP, those should be handled case by case with game staff. However, I don't think anyone should be forced into roleplaying something if it isn't fun on both sides. Playing with an edgy character requires a tremendous sensitivity on the player end for both sides. If someone doesn't want to participate in an RP for whatever reason, they should have the freedom to walk away.

First and foremost, this is a game and games should be fun.

100 % agreed. I was pretty relieved as I did figure you do not lose your bag and all the stuff - and no one who can ghost me to get all.

[Snazug]

I could understand the eyebrows raising among characters ingame if one was to "show no fear" as Hew openly explained, especially if this particular character was some halfling taunting an orc to fight mono to mono. Oh, but wait: maybe there COULD be a reason for that...a trap? A tall knight friend, a townsguard nearby armed to the teeth? Of course it would depend on that particular situation.

Like Kamilar says, it most definitely is a game and games should be fun.

Ufedhin is right in my book, as regards to the tension and adrenalin to stay alive goes, which does revert to the old system. I personally agree to disagree with how certain ingame functions are from the old days as compared to the current client because I have mixed feelings either way, depending on the subject matter. However, as mentioned from the development team and GMs numerous before, there will be no throwback Illarion 2002 (enjoyed those days myself as far as roleplaying with certain players, this game in general seemed to be thriving and more in active mode). PS - It is funny to me how people say "most" hated the old way, "most" dislike that way....I think there are two sides of the coin all in all.

But as Mrparpal and Achae noted, it ultimately is up to the position of the player and how he/she is roleplaying the situation. The 'credibility' term especially sums it up pretty well. Depending on what exactly it was that happened ingame and if it were to show how a certain player was demonstrating poor roleplay, maybe that would serve as perfect oppurtunity for a GM or Hew himself to pull that individual to the side and HELP that player out roleplay-wise (whether referring to the roleplay handbook -- is that still around?) or even follow a fellow player around to "explore" a bit. I know my roleplaying back in the day was very mediocre until I played the game more often, surrounded myself with good RP'ers and as time went, learned from my mistakes.

Just my two cents.

[Quinasa]

I think we don't need anything more than what we have. If we have to add MORE ways to enforce RP, then aren't those people that fail to RP well the kind of people we want to avoid?

[Ufedhin]

Unfortunately without some game engine back up this will not go away. I have found for better rp in general the game does need to have some teeth (serves as a wee constant reminder to those who start to abuse things),giving all responsibility to the players in all things is no use at all ,as without solid bones to build on far too many interpretations creep in. Take my character for example he has traveled the cold road (even at the behest the Gods) and while hating it with a passion is not in particular fear of it these days, so why cant others just say "due to my characters experiences ,death holds no fears?" and that is that ,its legal game play and impossible to judge if it being abused or not.
Without a doubt this will never go away if even the ultimate event for a character "DEATH" is just a wee trip to the cross and a bit of shopping in town.I have noticed these days many victims from the cross wandering around and RP as though nothing has happened ,many even olderhands have fallen into this ,no pretence of injury of trauma is in evidence.
Saying characters wont explore or take risks if death is harsh is not true it did not stop Gobiath being explored did it? , weaker characters need to just rp a bit more and use the grey matter that resides between there ears more than tough warriors and then they too can explore the map if they desire.

There must be a consequence for death and it should be of such a nature that all characters strive not to perish ,to all those who uphold how we cant make it tougher due to how mean it is (lol) , all i say to them is there was far better rp when penalties of death where harsher ,the game had a sense of danger and an element of fear that is no longer with us .As to the loss of precious items like enchanted items, swords ,armour etc that really is not an issue these days as they are far more easyly obtained than in the past.

[Yridia Anar]

I can't complete agree to this. I had already some nice RP to help wounded, also I would always play out injuries Ufedhin.
As a second point I can't agree to the loss of items. If you are not into making money and lose precious stuff it is hard to get it back.

But I see also your point. Once I played on a UO Shard. You could die - your character could die after several times of death and send back.
I am not sure how many death you had - and only the death of PvP did count. But you did actually think before put up a fight.
Maybe this could be a solution - that after dieing *X* times your character dies ?

But this can be easily abused I fear if someone not likes you ...

So I think we are pretty good as it is atm. The disadvantage is higher then the gain if its changed.

[Velisai]

For what it's worth, I mostly agree with Ufe. Could write an essay on this and closely related topics, but I believe it's a waste of time at this point simply because there are more pressing issues to be adressed currently and dev time is limited.

[Mephistopheles]

Standards for equipment are ridiculous everything perfect must be... you cant lose items so the standard is at an all time high. (Guilty) i agree with ufe and hew but i feel i'd be beating a dead horse if i were to attempt to explain why i'd like these features back.

I like Yridia's suggestion however hold no high hopes for it. Say if a char dies 3 times in one rl day (24 hrs) they may lose an item or two and possibly some exp.

Also about abuse and noobs.. for one we have enough veteran players that would be pissed if someone is messing with noob chars that even if the gms dont get to it chars ig will and the perp would probly get pk'd by 2-3 different chars simply because those chars heard about it. So meh..

[Achae Eanstray]

The logic of punishing the player with skill and item loss for poor roleplay escapes me, and yes, it definitely would prevent some exploration on a map that is not char friendly as the old Gobaith one was. My char still doesn't go to most dungeons even now wishing to "play it safe" and has only used some equipment and armor since the VBU having stored in the depot rather then loose it.

As an example, even with the VBU due to the high cost of repairs how many characters wear their higher end jewelry considering it doesn't show on the paper doll? I guess some may simply go ahead...others like me just store in the depot.
Pre VBU this same conversation arose "increase the death penalty because players aren't roleplaying their characters right or are not hesitant enough"

This game is all about fun foremost. It is usually considered not fun if your character looses hard earned skill or their favorite item when ghosted. Why remove that fun and hope the roleplay will be improved? Why not by example and encouragement teach better roleplay?

[Sarai Flysse]

I disagree with the premise that a system involving punishment is intrinsically less 'fun'. This is a very modern and fairly lame attitude which has crept into gaming within the last 5 years or so. On the contrary, a game with risk and potential loss is far more exciting than a game where you can basically never lose, unless you yourself decide to. Where's the drama, or adrenaline? Its not like we are talking anything important rl wise. I can take losing an imaginary sword or a skill point in a roleplaying game thank-you, I'm an adult. People will say, 'yeah you can just roleplay it', which is true, but illarion is still a game, with an engine that the developers apparantly want us to use.

Personally I'd suggest a compromise of some sort between the two camps, but things likely aren't changing for ages.

[Fooser]

We have a lot of people with questionable connections and/or computers, and losing skill points and items over that fact caused a lot of unnecessary rage and quitting during previous client versions. And with gems one is no longer losing a weapon but potentially hundreds of gold in a calculation of random chance. The best compromise between the two sides is what Mephy mentioned, dying a certain amount of times in a certain period of time would initiate the old fashioned item/skill drop. In UO if you died 3 times in a period of time all your items dropped and you had to get people to find them for you. People die less in this game so it would be more like dying 2 times within 3-6 RL hours or so. That would stop people from coming back from the cross to fight again. But it would also be merciful in allowing that 1 death first.

[GolfLima]

* wäre nett wenn irgendjemand einmal die Diskussion für die nicht ENG-sprachigen Spieler zusammenfassen & ins DEU übertragen könnte

* it would be nice if someone can make a short summary in GER for NON-ENG-players

Danke schon mal im Voraus
Thanks in advance

[Ufedhin]

Lets not fixate on item loss only ,there are many different ways for death to become a feared event again.How about this for an example:to pay the ferry man to bring you back from Cherga's shores you lose 50% of you gold even if its stashed in your depot, and the recovery time should be increased to at the very least double what it is now.

With the loss of gold it wont be so tough on newbies ,nore on the wastrels with only a penny to their names yet the desire to wander in places of danger .Recovery time is just not long enough ,sure some will say this will upset folk as they cant get back into combat soon enough ...hell did you just die a few min' ago? why the heck would you jump back into combat straight away? it allows a time of injury to set in and maybe folk will rp it a bit more (realisim is a dirty word for some these days but let me tell you systems have to be based on something ,some common thread that binds it all together or they are meaningless babble, reality ,and established mythologies are a good basis to build a fantasy world on ....just some idea's.

[Aegohl]

I don't know about losing 50% from your depot, but I recall the old game Earthbound on the SNES punished death by removing half the money you had on person.

However, honestly, I just want to play. I'll play hurt when it's appropriate and ignore when it's not (like when I accidentally get mugged by a mummy while on the toilet). I don't think we should have Illarion script things to force people to rp. We should expect people to rp, encourage people to rp, and avoid people who don't rp. I'm sorry, but I just find that Illarion's philosophy of hardcore rp is often the least conducive thing to actual rp. I'm really tired of people emoting or comments that I'm not doing something realistic when usually they just don't get what I'm doing. I'm tired of people forcing hardcore rp on me. When I get mugged by that mummy while I'm peeing and leave the cross and someone comes with bandages and tells me to sit down that's forced rp and not conducive to either of our enjoyment and I think I reserve the right to ignore them. This is only one example of several bad habits I see constantly that are caused by hardcore rp and players judging other players roleplay and getting frustrated that they don't play out consequences the way that the player wants them to.

I got off-topic but I digress. If you want people to act like they fear death, do it yourself. Encourage it. Walk away from them when they aren't fair. Don't demand they change and then try to punish them with a script. I don't mind a minor thing like losing gold from your bag and belt, but anything more is kind of silly, frankly. And I don't even like the current system that makes you sit around at the depot and not play because you can't carry anything.

[Bloodraven]

I'll play hurt when it's appropriate and ignore when it's not (like when I accidentally get mugged by a mummy while on the toilet).

I want to state my full agreement to this.

[Ufedhin]

Lovely sentiments Aegohl , however it makes no attempt to settle Hew's initial agrievement.And for my part on the very rare occasion i am sent to the cross my debilitated state lasts days ,nor do i bother with forced rp i merely say "i dont wont yer help so bugger off" an they do.You can play however you wish regardless of harsher death being in the game ,but one thing it will do is cause those whom abuse it to pause and reconsider ,thats whats needed.
Set an example you say "chuckles " just how many times must one die to show others how it is done? No ,death needs teeth or it will alway have its abusers.

[Quinasa]

I second all the things Aegohl said. Surprise, I know, but I agree 100%.

[Hew Keenaxe]

And I agree with Ufe. And I was just sent to the cross by being disconnected on my end. Sucked. But it is the rare form of dying. Most often comes from the superman complex." I dont like that you are tougher than me, so I will just oppose you. If you send me to the cross, so what?" I will just file a grievance and you will be punished." If death was only that simple. File a grievance. Truth is, even if you dont like it, you should be afraid. Even if you dont like the RP. It shouldnt always be the stronger one to have to give up because you dont like it. I will try and always give an out and all should, but if you dont try and meet halfway, die. But thats not even really my point. I can tell if it is a languange barrier or some newbie. It is those that just think, I am above any threat because Cherga will bring me back and I can then have you taken care of. In forums or by town leaders or by bounty. They seem to forget they "died" or was seriously harmed. And that should count.

[Evie]

At one point Po Uhuru and I proposed a Cherga's underworld dungeon, where someone would go and have to complete a choice of three tasks, in order the return via the cross to the mortal plain. The concept was this dungeon was for those who multi cross in a certain amount of time or to give gm's a mechanism to send players to if they seen abuse or very poor roleplay I suppose. The plan was to slow people down from running from the cross and to make them pay dues to Cherga for their return to life. This being said, this idea was shot down quite some time ago by development and I don't know if anything similar would make it through.

[Yridia Anar]

A huge *thumbs up* to Aegohls post.

But if I spot someone wounded Yridia just asks if he needs help, cause its in her very nature and has to be played this way. If he says no its his decision.
With Aly I just walk by, stop and if he says nothing she does not even bother about.

All is in the RP you did chose for your Character, but also you have to respect if someone wont help or RP at this very moment.

Yesterday I did see ( not only 1 player ) several players coming deadly wounded from the cross and run around like they had nothing - maybe we should speak to this players.
I suppose there where mostly new ones. How about ask them OOC what happens ? A friendly question can help to clear the reason for such a behavior.

[Estralis Seborian]

I am pretty fine with current death consequences. They are robust and fair. Other games of the genre use exactly the same methodes. Thus, I completely agree with Achae and Aegohl - let us not dictate by scripts what is not fun for us.

I know at least one game out there that actually rewards players for dying with experience needed to become a necromancer. As an indie game, either, we use really cool and innovative features or robust and well known methods. But nothing weird no one enjoys.

[Mephistopheles]

Honestly though I think we could use something a little harsher than we have I think we can live with what we have now, it really isn't that dire, and I may agree that dying 3 times in a day is excessive and needs extra punishing, others may not. *shrugs* just play the game and roleplay what you want but just be careful because chars may not always do the "realistic" thing to do. It's a fantasy rp game just run with it.

[Evie]

In my opinion, this issue is one of roleplay and not of the death consequences. There is so much more illogical RP ingame than just when people cross. Of course this is my opinion, and some may think my roleplay is illogical as well. I even have an insane character created to be totally illogical. I have one character that will tell you they had a small accident, if they are mortally wounded as well. Maybe we don't always understand another characters reactions or it could just be bad roleplay skills. We can only offer to RP with those at the cross, whether they choose to respond in kind or run off without comment (have had that happen alot even if you ooc offer a newbie help there). I think Achae is right, we have to show them examples of good Rp in hopes that it sticks eventually . The method does work! Not so many years ago I was a newbie in Illarion. This was my first adventure into any form of RP game. The way I learned.. watching others then copying what they did and I am still learning. And yes I still want to reach through my monitor and slap characters that just run from the cross, especially if they do it two or three times in a row. But, we can't force control their rp or lack of it. Personally, I don't want someone controlling mine. We are all here to relax and have fun from real life. Enough rambling two coppers from PO Evie.

[Uhuru]

I'll play hurt when it's appropriate and ignore when it's not (like when I accidentally get mugged by a mummy while on the toilet).

I want to state my full agreement to this.

I agree with this too, but wish to add that at one point, our characters were being sent to the cross by so many things that were out of our control that many of us were choosing not to RP the ghosting. We couldn't seem to avoid the cross if we left town. It got to a point where RPing injuries was getting out of control and frustrating for things that POs had no control over. That said, the developers have done a great job working on movement and things. And yes, when ghosted for doing something stupid, we should RP out injuries, which I know I usually try to do. As a rule of thumb for myself, the injury depends on what took my character down and how many monsters were there. Surround Uhuru with enough spiders before ghosting and she is going to stop breathing when she wakes up.

I do think others are correct when they say that we need to be showing others how to RP by example. We have quite a few new POs now. Let's not get upset that the RP isn't good, lets get excited that we have new POs!! Lets rejoice and help them build and grow their RP skills and show them how to eat a crisp firm apple as someone did for me once. *grins*

[Snazug]

Not so many years ago I was a newbie in Illarion. This was my first adventure into any form of RP game. The way I learned.. watching others then copying what they did and I am still learning. And yes I still want to reach through my monitor and slap characters that just run from the cross, especially if they do it two or three times in a row. But, we can't force control their rp or lack of it. Personally, I don't want someone controlling mine. We are all here to relax and have fun from real life.

Agree with this.
I was definitely the same way.

[Ufedhin]

I do also agree with the sentiments recently stated ,but i doubt it will settle abusers of the death system ,one can live in hope i guess.