Get rid of banning npcs or..

[Mephistopheles]

I propose to either get rid of these banning npcs entirely or to only use them for problem roleplayers. Like guys who would attack afk chars or newbs for no reason or no emotes. Other bans should be player enforced to improve rp with conflict chars. However they should obviously know the severe consequences if caught. Perhaps make it so that npcs will not sell to the banned person and yell out if they try to trade. Or perhaps make secret entrances that they need to find in order to enter the town.

[Bloodraven]

Like guys who would attack afk chars or newbs for no reason or no emotes.

No, those will be dealt with in another way. Town bans are a pure ingame tool.

[Mephistopheles]

And this pure ingame tool, in a roleplaying game, prevents roleplay.

I believe I've stated this before. The towns are centers for roleplay so these bans prevent valuable roleplayers from entering the centers for roleplay in a roleplay game. So please explain, devs, players, gms, how this benefits us at all?

I know there is a project of npc guards, so then why do we need these npcs who automatically block banned chars (who keep in mind don't even need to be caught to be banned)? Also whats the point of a town guard if chars that put a risk to the town are just banned? And say if someone wanted to get a bounty on said criminal they can't even drag that criminal back to the town which they are wanted in!

So again, please explain to me how this makes sense at all?

[Evie]

Mephy,
Your character was banned for a pure ingame roleplay reason, he kept coming into a town and trying to haul out a citizen and he came in armed and agressive. What town wouldn't realistically bann a person for that?

[Achae Eanstray]

Are you talking of a change to this closed Mantis project? http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=9535

[Jupiter]

The banning function of the npc is the result of a lesson of the past.

We had a lot of conflicts between players because of the lack of having a proper way to keep criminals out of he town. Player guards cannot be on duty 24/7 hours. As soon as the bad guy would enter the town when no strong member of the town is online, he would raise the suspicion to just have waited for that, even if he didn't look at the online list at all, because some would do exactly this.
You cannot say that good roleplayers will to everything nicely and just the bad players will behave in abusive ways, because possibilty that the player of the bad guy just waited for a good moment is enough to cause anger. And what should we then do? Tell the GMs to ivestigate on all that?

If you don't like the npc guards, think about way to improve them or replace them with something else. Removing them without any substitution is not a real good idea.

[Mephistopheles]

Mephy,
Your character was banned for a pure ingame roleplay reason, he kept coming into a town and trying to haul out a citizen and he came in armed and agressive. What town wouldn't realistically bann a person for that?

I wasn't talking about this actually. and I'm not going to discuss how I feel about that roleplay because it will only cause out of character trouble. this is a proposal about automatic bans which I believe are very counter productive.

[Fiona]

The banning function of the npc is the result of a lesson of the past.

We had a lot of conflicts between players because of the lack of having a proper way to keep criminals out of he town. Player guards cannot be on duty 24/7 hours. As soon as the bad guy would enter the town when no strong member of the town is online, he would raise the suspicion to just have waited for that, even if he didn't look at the online list at all, because some would do exactly this.
You cannot say that good roleplayers will to everything nicely and just the bad players will behave in abusive ways, because possibilty that the player of the bad guy just waited for a good moment is enough to cause anger. And what should we then do? Tell the GMs to ivestigate on all that?

If you don't like the npc guards, think about way to improve them or replace them with something else. Removing them without any substitution is not a real good idea.

I agree here, but I like the idea of secret entrances to the towns. However, they would have to be really hard to find and reach and there should also not be more than one per town.

[Velisai]

So what happens when you find the secret entrance to your own town? You just leave it open and unguarded? That would make no sense at all IC.
Would be better if guard NPCs could let in transformed or invisible chars, should invisibility potions ever be implemented.

[Achae Eanstray]

How does this drastically reduce roleplay in just a 24 hour time limit?

[Teflon]

Mephy,
Your character was banned for a pure ingame roleplay reason, he kept coming into a town and trying to haul out a citizen and he came in armed and agressive. What town wouldn't realistically bann a person for that?

I wasn't talking about this actually. and I'm not going to discuss how I feel about that roleplay because it will only cause out of character trouble. this is a proposal about automatic bans which I believe are very counter productive.

Automatic bans? We do not have them as far as I know. May I ask you to explain what you mean? Leaders can ban a char for one day if there is an IG reason. As far as I see the reports to the Don from different sources it was reasonable to ban your char and I also think you are still able to rp on basis of this decision.

[Mephistopheles]

I did not know this was a one day limit, because I know some chars have been banned for some time for rather insignificant reasons like Fooser for example. Also I do not know if the situation with outlaws allowed in Cadomyr has changed or not either.

I meant the bans that keeps players out of towns. and this was also meant for more permanent bans placed on chars.

And onto the personal matter this proposal did not come up because of me being banned because I didn't even know I was lol.

@Velisai I think that is a good idea with transformation potions and/or invisibility potions ( I did suggest such before)

[Kamilar]

I favor a less-than-100% accuracy on a banning NPC. Such a person in a realistic setting would not have perfect accuracy and the absolute predictability of this feature makes it difficult to suspend disbelief and maintain interest. Something around 95% accuracy at spotting the person banned but the remaining 5% chance that some other person would be stopped from gaining entrance including the citizens of the town. This would give the system a little more balance and maybe make players stop and think a minute and try a little harder to work things out IC.

[Uhuru]

I would just like to point out that two bannings have happened recently and neither was reported on the boards. Neither character was given notice. This cannot and should not happen. Ever. In Galmair, I know notice was sent out to the upper echelons, people in charge, but no notice was posted to let citizens or even the person that was banned know.

As for the one banned from Runewick, how many know? Does he?

Please, communicate bannings more appropriately if nothing else.
1) Who is banned?
2) Why was this person/people banned?
3) How long will the banning last unless changed?
4) On whose authority was the banning put in place?

We need to have some courtesy not just to the characters, but to the POs as well.

Thank you.

[Velisai]

I would just like to point out that two bannings have happened recently and neither was reported on the boards. Neither character was given notice. This cannot and should not happen. Ever. In Galmair, I know notice was sent out to the upper echelons, people in charge, but no notice was posted to let citizens or even the person that was banned know.

As for the one banned from Runewick, how many know? Does he?

Please, communicate bannings more appropriately if nothing else.
1) Who is banned?
2) Why was this person/people banned?
3) How long will the banning last unless changed?
4) On whose authority was the banning put in place?

We need to have some courtesy not just to the characters, but to the POs as well.

Thank you.

Those are very valid points and this is mostly done in the case of long term bans. I'll keep it in mind for 24 hour bans like the recent one in Galmair as well.


@Meph: Yes, I'm pretty sure it was your or Uffe's idea originally. Repeating it where it makes sense to do so, to remind the staff of this potentially wonderful feature.

[Jupiter]

@Uhuru

I am not sure why this cannot be handled ingame. Go to the responsible person and demand a proper documentation. I'm not sure why this has to be an ooc issue.

[Uhuru]

@Uhuru

I am not sure why this cannot be handled ingame. Go to the responsible person and demand a proper documentation. I'm not sure why this has to be an ooc issue.

I wanted to reach more than one person. And... the banning in Galmair is nearly over. Would make no sense to bring it up in game now. Plus, having it down in documentation somewhere so people can see it isn't a bad thing. It needs to be part of this discussion or I wouldn't have written it.

[Djironnyma]

The ban from the town is an pure IG Punishment. It neigther have to be fair nor well documented. If your char is banned from a town and doesn’t know why or feel unfairly threaten he have to go to his fraction leader(s) or representatives of the town hes banned from and complain ig. If the char havent anyone whos listening or taking him serious cause of his chars attitude / concept / behaviour he have to face that problem and bore the consequences. Normally a char is banned from one town, still have two other fraction to do his business. If a char was banned from all 3 towns i doubt that he have done nothing and is just hated and unwelcome everywhere

The NPC Guards have to be accurate 100% otherwise you just can trick them by try often enough what would make them useless, furthermore you have no instrument to "correct" the NPC if your char find an banned char in town. For the rare moments where someone with a banned char has a valid reason to enter a town he can speak with an GM anyway to sneak his char around.

The NPC guards are one of the best improvements for town we got. Never before the IG Bans of towns where token by anyone serious. The most player just wait till the main players of a town (or at least the strong chars) not ig and walk in the town then. Furthermore playing a criminal char or at least a char who piss mighty chars of have to deal with consequences. I remember too good from leading Varshikar how hard it was to deal with overpowered fighters came into town and bully and killing weaker chars in the time the players of the strong chars of the town where offline. The NPC guards guarantee a more or less save area even for weak / non fighting chars and that’s a very big improvement. I know more as one case where player left the game because their weak chars were bullied by stronger chars and their had no place to play the game in peace.

Anyway a town banning chars prevent these chars to enter, trade and work in this town and the player to RP there, with such an action a town ever punish them self too. So i don’t see a real danger that to much banning become a serious problem, no town would ban permanent all other fractions.

Conclusion: Banning from a town is and stay an IG matter, deal with it IG

[Teflon]

I did not know this was a one day limit, because I know some chars have been banned for some time for rather insignificant reasons like Fooser for example. Also I do not know if the situation with outlaws allowed in Cadomyr has changed or not either.

Fooser is banned from Galmair? He has a debt but should not have a ban. Only one character has a long time ban in Galmair.

[Jupiter]

Plus, having it down in documentation somewhere so people can see it isn't a bad thing. It needs to be part of this discussion or I wouldn't have written it.

I am still not understanding why this is an ooc issue. Why does it need to be part of this discussion? Why do players have to necessarily see it documentated somewhere?
From an ingame perspective it is quite clear. If the char is a citzien of a town, he wants to know what's going on. But what is the crucial points that makes it an ooc thing?

[Fooser]

I did not know this was a one day limit, because I know some chars have been banned for some time for rather insignificant reasons like Fooser for example. Also I do not know if the situation with outlaws allowed in Cadomyr has changed or not either.

Fooser is banned from Galmair? He has a debt but should not have a ban. Only one character has a long time ban in Galmair.

Yes, for over a year

[Pugnacious]

Any ban that is longer than a short-term is a very serious thing and should be not be used for RP reasons.
If a fighter (the type most usually banned) from Galmair is banned from Galmair, he is also banned from Cadomyr by reason of their outlaw system. Also Ruinwick doesn't have the tools or NPC's that can provide the armor and weapons he needs. So he is by virtue of one ban , outcast from from continuing his character anywhere. His weapons and armor goes unrepaired or replaced. With the low number of players, its not fair to make him have to count on them as they maybe unavailable or unwilling. Someway needs to be made for repair, crafting or purchase outside of towns if these bans are going to be used.

[Kamilar]

The NPC Guards have to be accurate 100% otherwise you just can trick them by try often enough what would make them useless

100% accuracy isn't necessary. A cool down could be built in where after an unsuccessful attempt to enter town, the character can't try again for a couple of hours (the base of 95% accuracy goes to 100% for 3 hours as an example with some colorful and loud NPC language thrown in for good measure). This makes for a more realistic game world where the characters on both sides of the wall have legitimate concerns as well as valid RP roles to play.

I have also seen players leave because of bullying but that issue is part of a much larger discussion that this NPC guard addresses only in very small part. I have also seen some great RP and game enrichment from players sneaking around which is lacking with this set up. Giving players a button to press takes away the incentive to use RP and resolve things with their characters. If players want to play at politics with their characters they should be developing their negotiation and diplomacy skills not relying on sure-fire engine fixes to solve their conflicts.

This NPC guard is a case of using one extreme to try and correct the other. Maybe my suggestion isn't the right answer but the solution almost invariably lies in the grey areas.

[Jupiter]

How about a system where the guards walk around instead of guarding only the main entrance? Bad guys woul then have to play hide and seek in order to get in the town (and stay there).
We can also hav multiple guards with guards switching duty ships and all that. Or guard monsters that the bad guy can try to fight. One could also make in a way that towns can use money/goods to support thie guards in number and equipmeant.
That is an idea that we plan since a long time. Bu it's complex and work and all that.

But I certainly prefer that because that is than actually a proper game system instead of justr trying the odds with the main guard.

[Kamilar]

That is a better suggestion. I especially like the guards patrolling so that the character has to constantly be on the lookout while in town (awesome!) though the accuracy still shouldn't be 100%. Even the NPCs should have worries at home that have an effect on their job performance and with paperdolling, characters should be able to disguise themselves somehow. I don't like the ooc-ish nature and infallibility of the NPCs in general. While that's being worked on and since it's so far down the road, the current system could get a small tweak as a work around for the work around.

Also, on market days all NPC bans should be lifted. That's just mean otherwise.

[Jupiter]

Also, on market days all NPC bans should be lifted. That's just mean otherwise.

I disagree. Honestly, why would a town leader lift a ban so that the murderer can buy his groceries? I say that is an ingame question and shouldn't be overwritten by technical means. (But guards might have a day off then, or higher salleries)

On the accuracy: I guess with a steahl game like approach that is something that can be considered in one way or the other.

[Kamilar]

Alright, maybe not lifted but it should be much, much easier to get in on a market day (say NPC with 15% accuracy or something). The guards are all overwhelmed by the volume of people coming and going, a cohort is sneaking someone in under a pile of hay or in a basket of bread ... you get the idea. That's why Robin Hood goes into Nottingham on market days in all the movies. If the bans in place are serious enough, the market day can be cancelled by the town.

[Uhuru]

The ban from the town is an pure IG Punishment. It neigther have to be fair nor well documented.

Either have some decency and communicate that it has been used or don't use it at all. At minimum, your citizens need to know that there is someone that has been banned from your town, someone they need to watch out for in their travels. This communication isn't just a courtesy to the player being banned, it is a courtesy to the citizens of your realm. Not to mention other realms.

Please, everyone, I ask you once again, use this tool with great caution and discretion and when you do, let people know.

[Kamilar]

I agree with Uhuru here. If the mechanical ban is used without fairness or getting the RP paperwork completed, it smacks of OOC rather than IG punishment and we all know how much fun that is.

[Jupiter]

Either have some decency and communicate that it has been used or don't use it at all. At minimum, your citizens need to know that there is someone that has been banned from your town, someone they need to watch out for in their travels. This communication isn't just a courtesy to the player being banned, it is a courtesy to the citizens of your realm. Not to mention other realms.

Those are all ingame arguments, in my eyes. I don't really see why it is an ooc issue how the banning is publicly documanted or not.