Get rid of banning npcs or..

Here you can make and discuss suggestions to improve the game. / Hier kannst du Vorschläge einreichen und diskutieren um das Spiel zu verbessern.

Moderator: Developers

User avatar
Kamilar
Posts: 732
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:53 pm
Location: Running away

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Kamilar »

It's an issue because the in game tools should support good roleplay. One player clicking a button that engages the game engine in a way that negatively effects another player blurs the IG/OOC line. Using the banning tool without supporting it with roleplay is more like an OOC punishment which I hope we can all agree is an undesirable outcome. Players that don't support their actions with roleplay should probably not have access to these types of tools in the first place.
User avatar
Jupiter
Developer
Posts: 3477
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 11:23 am

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Jupiter »

Kamilar wrote:Using the banning tool without supporting it with roleplay is more like an OOC punishment which I hope we can all agree is an undesirable outcome.
That is simply forbidden. In the same way as you are not allowed to just run around killing others without roleplay. Noone said something else. But why is the only proper way of roleplaying that you announce publicly what you did? Why is it bad roleplay e.g. when a few people come together and decide to ban a person without giving an official explanation hoping to be able to prevent a public brouhaha?

There is not just one way of roleplaying that. I certainly don't see why it requires always public announcements.
Annabeth
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Annabeth »

The tool is basically giving a message to the guards to keep out this and this person for the next three days (one real day).
In a realistic situation the guards would be able to tell the person why they are banned. Perhaps a change to the tool, where you can leave a message for the guards to say to the banned person if they try to enter town.This message would include why they are banned, so that the players would no longer be unaware of what they did wrong and it could also be used to log why and when leader characters banned people from their towns.

While guards would possibly be willing to explain why the ban is in place however, the character issuing it might consider it needless. If that happens, just contact the leaders of a town about it asking why like anyone would do if it was real life and the forums and ooc did not exist. Imagine a real world where the guards refuse to tell you why you are banned because in their eyes you are just a filthy criminal, or perhaps the reason why is above their clearance. The only logical solution then would be to send a message to the leaders of the town asking for reasoning, as the forums and ooc would not exist. I really don't see this being an ooc problem, rather than an IG problem that can be solved IC.

As to wrongful use of the tool, banning people without good reason and such, this would be something for the GM leader characters (the don, the archmage or the queen) to deal with in game, since it is for them to promote/demote people to the rank where they may issue bans through the tool.
The exception here would be if either party is breaking game rules rather than town rules, such as the one banning doing so for obvious ooc reasons rather than in character reasons.
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Mephistopheles »

+1

if I have authority in a town and I ban them, I don't want to shut them out completly, I wanna kick their butt if they do enter. That or be capable of bringing them in for questioning for other town officials.

Not only does this support a valid need for an actual town guard, but it supports roleplay in general provided that the criminal in question isn't just a jerk rule breaker.

There's so many options displayed here in these player comments. If we plan on simply using the bans as a 24 hour temporary, I can see a benefit there as well. It gives a cool off period where the roleplaying parties in question take a break from the conflict so there isn't headlong rushing in because you're mad oocly. So that the next day you'll have a better idea of what you want to do. This can be useful if it's not abused or overused.

So in conclusion to my post here I suggest that this one day ban be a set rule. Bans after that day (unless you absolutly need to) should be player enforced not engine enforced, we wonder why we still don't have town guards... Also these bans can be in place for ic reasons like important meetings in the town and the rp comes out as *there are more guards at the gate than usual, now is not a good time to enter the city in which you are banned* At which point mine and Velisai's suggestion comes into play for invisible or transformed chars being able to pass by gate guards without them raising the alarm.
User avatar
Kamilar
Posts: 732
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:53 pm
Location: Running away

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Kamilar »

If I understood Uhuru correctly, she did say something else. In her post she mentions that there were two recent bannings that she perceived as unnecessarily secretive and where the characters banned were not themselves even aware. While I do appreciate that there can be a variety of ways to roleplay a scenario at least the character banned should be a participant. Obviously it was serious enough for her to mention it.
User avatar
Velisai
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: where pigs can fly

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Velisai »

I don't think we had a case where a player was banned by another player or GM without any kind of follow up RP at all, so I don't think arguing in the direction of who should have access to what tools is helpful. This should always be decided on an individual basis. The use of the town management tools is logged in case abuse happens and brand new chars have no access. Player issued bans are 24 hours by default. There is no option to shorten or extend them, as that is reserved for GMs. Please keep in mind that even when mistakes are made, nobody here has any intentions to ruin your fun. It can happen occasionaly for various reasons, but people who do that repeatedly or on purpose usually get noticed and removed from the game pretty quickly. Simply point out what you didn't like in a calm and constructive manner and things will almost certainly improve.

Letting players know their chars were banned for whatever period of time gives them a chance to react instead of simply bumping off the NPCs and turning back in frustration. I think this isn't too much to ask and if you really want to avoid IC notification, it can be done OOC via PM, as a courtesy between players.

The system Jupiter described sounds really great. The idea with a chance that an NPC guard fails to recognize the banned character shouldn't be very difficult to implement, but is not a lot less like simple button pushing compared to the town ban. It doesn't take into account whether your char is disguised somehow or not. The easiest way to do this is to check if the char in question is transformed by a potion at this point, as far as technical solutions go. Until something is coded, tested and released we must rely on GMs to help out, but that is kind of the purpose of GMs in the first place, so don't be shy.
User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by GolfLima »

please,

could someone give a short summery of the discussion in GER.
this would be nice

thanks in advance.
Ranwyln
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Ranwyln »

Im Großen und Ganzen ne Diskussion über Stadtwachen, dass Bannen von Personen und wie das funktionieren soll. Aktuell ist es ein 100% iges System Leute aus ner Stadt rauszuhalten per Bann, Jupiters Idee ging in Richtung einer "patroullierenden" Stadtwache, welche es so auch möglich machen würde als Verbannter sich in Städte reinzumogeln. Aktuell können Spieler mit der Befugnis andere Spieler mit RP Grund für einen RL Tag bannen wenn ich das richtig verstanden habe. Desweiteren gings auch darum, dass das Bannen wohl auch als OOC Bestrafung empfunden wurde, soll aber ein pures RP Tool sein. Deswegen kam auch die Frage auf, ob die Spieler die gebannt wurden, nicht auch automatisch beim Versuch ne Stadt zu betreten von der Wache angesprochen werden sollten bzw. sie auch RP informiert sein müssen. Ich glaub das war das wichtigste, habs grad auch etwas eilig und nich die Zeit mir alles nochmal durchzulesen.
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

I was just banned permanently by a player for an IG conversation. No attacks, just made some fun of Annabeth.
If this is how the game works, you can have it.
User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by GolfLima »

großen Dank an Ranwyln
User avatar
Davide
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:28 pm

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Davide »

Hew Keenaxe wrote:I was just banned permanently by a player for an IG conversation. No attacks, just made some fun of Annabeth.
If this is how the game works, you can have it.
Well - I think you both should clear this over PM - not sure if this is the right place here Hew
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Mephistopheles »

I am going to have to agree slightly with Hew, it wasn't that exact situation which had gotten that char banned but the simple fact that the char appeared to be a "threat" though he had not attacked another character or done anything outrageous.

These bans are stupid, and giving it to players who might get a little pissed (not saying that about po annabeth I do not know what the case was and so I have no right to ask about her intentions) what happened to warnings? or threats? or duels in Cadomyr? what happened to putting someone in the prison to do mine labor? WTH happened to a town guard?

These bans are stupid I say so again, either put regulations on such use or get rid of the damn things. This "tool" inhibits rp in an rp game.
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

It is the right place. Sweeping it under the rug doesn't fix things. I made fun of her, IG. Said she carried the Queens skirt, was rude. But never used a bad word or raised a blade, or did some ((OOC)) stuff. If a player can ban permanently for that, something is very wrong. And my character should not have to come back and beg that player for that. SHE is in the wrong.
User avatar
Jupiter
Developer
Posts: 3477
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 11:23 am

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Jupiter »

Discussig individual cases right after the seem to have happend is certainly not the best way. That discussion becomes a bit to heated for me to be useful. I would like to ask you to think about ways to improve the guard thing. I made a proposal myself. But saying "It is stupid. I am right you are wrong, so remove them" is not helpful.
User avatar
Uhuru
Posts: 924
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:56 am
Location: In time out, where else?

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Uhuru »

We are, of course, trying to handle the situation in game. But, it never should have come up. To perma ban for such a miserable excuse is just beyond ridiculous. The PO has a right to be inflamed. Please, look at how the banning is being used.
Annabeth
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Annabeth »

You seem to forget that players do not have this kind of power, so there are regulations. A player may only ban for 24 hours. However, GMs may do more. As for reasons, there are plenty but that is all in character. To make this an ooc conflict is just ridiculous and I will have no part of it.
Either way, players of characters should think before acting up OOC, just because their characters do not sit on all the information.
Hew Keenaxe wrote:never used a bad word ... or did some ((OOC)) stuff.
Excessive profanity and OOC abuse would be game rules, not town rules. It would not result in an IG ban. You seem to have the borders between OOC bans and IG bans mixed.
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Jupiter wrote:Discussig individual cases right after the seem to have happend is certainly not the best way. That discussion becomes a bit to heated for me to be useful. I would like to ask you to think about ways to improve the guard thing. I made a proposal myself. But saying "It is stupid. I am right you are wrong, so remove them" is not helpful.
Well you weren't there. I encourage you to read our logs. I broke none , none of game rules. None. And this whole post has been leaning to how a player can't do but a 24 hour ban. She handed that out. I was fine with that. Even sent in a friend of Hew's to try and talk to her. When that didn't go anywhere, I just accepted my ban. But then, right before running off, she says " Just so you know, the ban is permanent" How does one player get that power over another? And as I already said, for no rule breaks, no attacks, no bad words, no ((OOC)) flaming. If that doesn't show a broken system, I don't no what does. But I am sure I don't want to be part of it. And you may be glad of that. But, this will also chase off other players in the long run. Be sure of that.
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Mephistopheles »

Jupiter wrote:Discussig individual cases right after the seem to have happend is certainly not the best way. That discussion becomes a bit to heated for me to be useful. I would like to ask you to think about ways to improve the guard thing. I made a proposal myself. But saying "It is stupid. I am right you are wrong, so remove them" is not helpful.

I gave many proposals, and this "case" does not concern me or my char. So that statement is entirely invalid.

I gave proposals to drop the banning npcs upon implementing the npc town guards.

I gave proposals for "back doors"

I gave proposals for transformed/invisible chars

I gave proposals for realistic regulations concerning the npc ban only lasting a day while longer than that should be char enforced

on top of this other players have added their own suggestions. My question is why are they all simply being shot down, this feature IS stupid by many players opinions (maybe except for the ones who like to use it) and I have explained why it DOES NOT support roleplay in a ROLEPLAY GAME.

thank you.
User avatar
Jupiter
Developer
Posts: 3477
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 11:23 am

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Jupiter »

Hew Keenaxe wrote:I broke none , none of game rules. None.
I thought we talk about ingame bans. Ingame bans have nothing to do with game rules.
User avatar
Alytys Lamar
Posts: 2199
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:13 pm
Location: Always in the middle of nowhere
Contact:

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Alytys Lamar »

Still - if this is true I wont play Illarion anymore. Aly is a bad Lady with rude behavior and I wont play her in fear to get banned her from Cadomyr for a bad joke or word :/
User avatar
rakust dorenstkzul
Posts: 2300
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:47 pm
Location: In the heart of every smiling child

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by rakust dorenstkzul »

Hew Keenaxe wrote:" Just so you know, the ban is permanent"
Tough talk, but how do you know if it was anything more than that?
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Annabeth wrote:You seem to forget that players do not have this kind of power, so there are regulations. A player may only ban for 24 hours. However, GMs may do more. As for reasons, there are plenty but that is all in character. To make this an ooc conflict is just ridiculous and I will have no part of it.
Either way, players of characters should think before acting up OOC, just because their characters do not sit on all the information.
Hew Keenaxe wrote:never used a bad word ... or did some ((OOC)) stuff.
Excessive profanity and OOC abuse would be game rules, not town rules. It would not result in an IG ban. You seem to have the borders between OOC bans and IG bans mixed.
No player should have the power you wield so recklessly. I was stating the reasons that a ban may happen, any reason, ((OOC)) or not. But Hew broke none. If you have the power to exclude another player from one of only three towns, because your character was offended, I wouldn't like that. As a 24 hour ban. But you did and I lived with it. But as a permanent ban? Sorry, but this just isn't right. And if the powers that be don't fix it, then this game isn't right. Hew isn't going to grovel, he may take your head. If he does, that is a reason to ban. But words, non-threatning words are not a reason. You should have your rank revoked. You ain't mature enough to have it.
User avatar
Achae Eanstray
Posts: 4300
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:03 am
Location: A field of dandelions
Contact:

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Achae Eanstray »

There appears to be some confusion on in game/town bans. These bans can be decided on by each individual town. In other words you may be banned for one thing in a town but not for the same thing in another town.



1. Permanent town bans are only approved by the GM over that town and due to a build up of a lot of things happening in game. It can and has been resolved in game but of course can be discussed ooc with the GM. A player can not do a permanent ban.

The proposal has to do with these permanent town bans by the GM?


The other ban is by players and can never be a permanent ban from the town, can only be for one day maximum. A GM also looks these over carefully and ultimately (I am just guessing)... this "feature" will be remove if not done wisely by the players/leaders of the town. Is the proposal for this one also?

I would suggest to stick with general suggestions for this proposal which will help to find a good solution for the towns.

The last ban is a ban by GM's from the game for repeated breaking of game rules and has nothing to do with town bans.
User avatar
Kamilar
Posts: 732
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:53 pm
Location: Running away

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Kamilar »

Could we please have some OOC guidelines on how this tool is to be used by the players given that authority? It would certainly help clear up these misunderstandings hopefully before they happen in the future.
Fooser
Posts: 4725
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:25 pm

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Fooser »

The other ban is by players and can never be a permanent ban from the town, can only be for one day maximum.
But I assume 24 hour bans can be used multiple times, correct?
Annabeth
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Annabeth »

Fooser wrote:
The other ban is by players and can never be a permanent ban from the town, can only be for one day maximum.
But I assume 24 hour bans can be used multiple times, correct?
The use of this tool is logged in a file GMs can access. If one uses it on the same person multiple times like that to make sure they stay banned, this will of course be frowned upon and questioned by said GMs. Also a character has to be online for someone to use the tool to ban them.
User avatar
Azure Lynch
Galmair
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 5:24 pm
Location: Lost in my mind
Contact:

Re: Get rid of banning npcs or..

Post by Azure Lynch »

hear is a suggestion if you get banned but want to rp work with that town and make it look like you trying to find away into town or wait for an ambush and this might work for good rps' just a thought.
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Prison vs bans/ npc guards

Post by Mephistopheles »

I hate this stuff with banning npcs as I've made quite clear, seems theres either love or hate when it comes to it.

But fact is we need town guards back, we need motivation for chars.

I propose Prisons come back. but before this is disregarded then listen to this proposal.

Prisons should be created where character prison guards watch over them like a regular job, gms should be able to step in if chars are simply forgotten about, that should not happen. Prison breaks should be possible. places for rp so that inmates can interact or beat the crap out of each other. Visiting could be allowed depending on the prisoner etc etc.

Town character's should defend themselves not simply have an omnipotent npc banning beast.

Sure we'll have bs chars who just do dumb stuff for fun, but who cares? it's more fun than what we have now. I feel that we should look to what made Gobaith successful and fun, and why the current state is stagnant and boring. Yes there is going to be trouble but thats where dedicated players, devs, and gms come in to tweak and define these things.
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Prison vs bans/ npc guards

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Galmair has?had a prison. I know . Hew has been in it twice, AND broke out once. :wink: It's just not being used.
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Re: Prison vs bans/ npc guards

Post by Mephistopheles »

You mean the mine? I mean the mine is a great form of punishment, in fact I think it should be a big part of a prison/penal system.

Some minor crimes can be simply punishable by mine work/ probation while crazy guys in for larger crimes could work in the mines to reduce sentence or perhaps prison guards (players) could usher criminals out of cells for daily mine work.


some things to consider for a decent Judicial/ penal system.
Post Reply