The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Here you can make and discuss suggestions to improve the game. / Hier kannst du Vorschläge einreichen und diskutieren um das Spiel zu verbessern.

Moderator: Developers

Fooser
Posts: 4725
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:25 pm

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Fooser »

Jupiter wrote:The amount can be close to the original. The changes effects mostly monsters of high numbers in a spawn. And we could only go by monster id. We have a lot of slime in the glittering cave, but a lot of different types of slime. Basically: If there have been 3 monsters of the same type, there are just 2 now.

Anyway, I will look for your task and take care of it. I will either reduce the amount or increase the respawn time.
Thanks. It's kind of annoying the way it is now especially since merenium ore is worthless and the gold drops are only slightly better than the non-slime cadomyr cave.
User avatar
Uhuru
Posts: 924
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:56 am
Location: In time out, where else?

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Uhuru »

Fooser wrote:
Jupiter wrote:@Fooser: If I remember correctly, the glittering cave is on the sourface. That means the amount fo slimes has been reduced there. Could be that there are still to many, but those are singular problems. For those it is best to open a request in mantis.
I've been in there a lot and it seems like the same amount. Also, I requested the number of them be reduced on mantis like a year ago :lol:
I know you won't like it, but most of us have to take a friend with to survive. We mine in the glittering mine in groups. Have no choice. Not sure I agree with reducing the number of slimes myself.
User avatar
Jupiter
Developer
Posts: 3477
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 11:23 am

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Jupiter »

You can discuss on the glittering cave here: http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=8844

This way we keep the topic free of this very specific issue.
Mr.Oldie
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:54 am

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Mr.Oldie »

Love the new movement. this has reduced the running-jerk and smoothed thigns out for non european players like me.
However adjust that movement bug reported in mantis because otherwise people are running around too much when trying to open the bags or interact with an item.
User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by GolfLima »

* new pathfinding is now fine
* a nice amount of monsters but not to much
* the action radius of monsters is also fine
* you can run away if you need and there are not to much monsters comming if you walk around,
:arrow:
finaly it is GREAT now
THANKS
User avatar
Tyan Masines
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Tyan Masines »

I'll have to do some more testing, but here are two points I see already (most were mentioned here before by others):


1.) The monsters are too fast.

2.) There are too many monsters.


The overall Aggro/Pathfinding is fine. Good job on that.


But seeing the severeness of the two points mentioned, I am positive that should the update not be retweaked again, it will kill a lot of fun, and make doing anything in the wilderness yet less productive than before. All that will happen is older and more powerful characters will, while acting in groups, be protecting newer players/characters, and likely fail at that.
Also, traveling groups doing questing/roleplay in the wild will be contantly nagged by all sorts of creatures, making your grab for the coffee mug while outside of a settlement becoming a highly risky thing, for you could be swarmed by creatures at any point.

My proposal would be to yet reduce overall number of monsters, and slow them down in some way.
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Mephistopheles »

so I did some messing around and some things I really think need to be worked on are..( I understand this is still being worked on)

some creatures still need to be slowed
Archer monsters need to be drastically slowed (you get in one hit and they are half way across your screen)
and theres still many huge spawns

the areas where there are heavy char traffic seems very good, however the wilderness is crazy even for three maxed chars.
User avatar
Uhuru
Posts: 924
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:56 am
Location: In time out, where else?

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Uhuru »

Mephistopheles wrote: however the wilderness is crazy even for three maxed chars.
I do understand that some changes probably should still be made, but do we need to make it so a group of three can be comfortable in all areas? I am just wondering at what point we stop catering to a specific group of people. (not that I'm saying we are)

This group of three people, are we sure they were all "maxed" out? Was it a balanced group in terms of armors and weapons? Skills? Ranged and so forth? I'm just curious because we are looking to balance all things, not just look at one type of run in and kill with slashing weapons/heavy armor and be comfortable everywhere you go. Are they wearing level 100 armor but not skilled for it?

I would like to consider all things here. Thanks.
User avatar
Tyan Masines
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Tyan Masines »

I'd be less concerned for maxed out characters with high end equipment, but rather for newbies and aspiring characters. The point Meph was trying to make was, imho, not that an illusive group of three should be able to do anything, but he wanted to point out that if even a group of three maxed characters couldn't master, say, Salavesh, without fatalities, no newbie group ever will.
But I believe the important points have been found and mentioned here by plenty of people, e.g. monster speed, respawn, monster number, and now it will take time to work those changes in. Honestly the new pathfinding should probably not have been released so early without proper creature balancing, because as long as the balancing is done, the game will not see another new player (new as in new and not old with new account) staying longer than a few days.


Also with all tactics mentioned, keep in mind when the fighting system was redone last time, it was all made about DPS. Different armors have a huge impact though, yes. The question is, how much does that count for skeletons, trolls, golems, wolves, and so on? Not much. When fighting groups of monsters, tactics and having a lot of bowmen and different fighters is not very important, only DPS counts in the end. Kill em before they kill you. There might be a decent amount of tanking possible, but that ends at lvl 7 creatures or so as well - nobody can withstand their attacks very long.
That has to be kept in mind as well.
Avariel

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Avariel »

I do agree with Uhuru. The wilderness shouldnt be a comfortable place everywhere. Also I think it is good, that melee fighters are not getting through everything just with ease. The supporting role of other character classes becomes more and more important. Archers have a great impact on a group now, I think, and hopefully that will be the case with mages and priests also.
User avatar
Ufedhin
Posts: 797
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:45 am
Location: In a barrel with salted herrings.

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Ufedhin »

Buy my potions and all will be better wot ever you are warrior or archer etc etc. :mrgreen: .
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Mephistopheles »

Uhuru wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote: however the wilderness is crazy even for three maxed chars.
I do understand that some changes probably should still be made, but do we need to make it so a group of three can be comfortable in all areas? I am just wondering at what point we stop catering to a specific group of people. (not that I'm saying we are)

This group of three people, are we sure they were all "maxed" out? Was it a balanced group in terms of armors and weapons? Skills? Ranged and so forth? I'm just curious because we are looking to balance all things, not just look at one type of run in and kill with slashing weapons/heavy armor and be comfortable everywhere you go. Are they wearing level 100 armor but not skilled for it?

I would like to consider all things here. Thanks.
lol okay three MAXED chars, max armor, max parry and maxed Weapon, we did this on the test server with my char having a uniquely gemmed two handed drow sword, another char with 100 archery and using a perfect drow bow and 100 medium armor, we were using the absolute best the game has to offer. If three chars equiped like this cannot make it then theres something very wrong. not to mention we had the proper stats.

Some Po's might think warriors have it all and shouldn't be able to fight high level monsters blah blah, yes well compare a MAXED warrior in old system to one in this system, and keep in mind warriors do not make money like crafters, they do not hide in town and train all day with other chars, and its absolutly necessary for current warriors to take up a craft to become successful (unless they have another character feeding them money and equipment ). So to shatter the notion that warriors have it all, well you're very wrong.
Mr.Oldie
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:54 am

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Mr.Oldie »

oyee ufe quit pushing your items :P :D
User avatar
Jupiter
Developer
Posts: 3477
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 11:23 am

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Jupiter »

Mephistopheles wrote:we did this on the test server
What did you on the testserver? There is no hint what you have actually tried to achieve.
User avatar
Tinuva Geogroda
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:46 am
Location: A Tree In The Northern Forest, Oh Noes, The Northern Forest Is Mine Now!! Mwhahaha...

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Tinuva Geogroda »

Jupiter wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:we did this on the test server
What did you on the testserver? There is no hint what you have actually tried to achieve.
He stated very specifically he tried to survive with three maxed out chars to test if they could.
They failed, the monsters were too strong.
User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by GolfLima »

is there a difference between the

Test Server and the Game Server?

if yes, what is the difference?
User avatar
Jupiter
Developer
Posts: 3477
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 11:23 am

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Jupiter »

Tinuva Geogroda wrote:
Jupiter wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:we did this on the test server
What did you on the testserver? There is no hint what you have actually tried to achieve.
He stated very specifically he tried to survive with three maxed out chars to test if they could.
They failed, the monsters were too strong.
That is not very specific since there different areas with different monsters. "Survive" can also mean just runnig away. What they probably didn't.
Annabeth
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Annabeth »

Jupiter wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:we did this on the test server
What did you on the testserver? There is no hint what you have actually tried to achieve.
How about asking the right questions, rather than making such a useless remark.

He already mentioned that the purpose of this test was to see how a group of three with max skills, suiting stats and the best armor and weaponry possible in the game combined with sets of unique gems would be able to handle themselves in the wild, this group using both ranged and close-up weapons combined.
This much is obvious.

An appropriate question would rather be such things as where exactly in the wilderness they went, and which monsters they fought.

An example already brought up in this topic is the cult of Salavesh, where even maxed characters can no longer go. Yet a quest in Cadomyr easily accessible to new players, tell you to go there. This is something which obviously needs change, in one way or another.
User avatar
Raelith
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:19 pm
Contact:

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Raelith »

With regards to the original topic (the pathfinding) it is a success.

Monsters are able to move more intelligently instead of making their way from Point A to B via Points C, D and E

Anything else should be discussed in a separate thread/on Mantis
User avatar
Tinuva Geogroda
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:46 am
Location: A Tree In The Northern Forest, Oh Noes, The Northern Forest Is Mine Now!! Mwhahaha...

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Tinuva Geogroda »

Jupiter wrote:
Tinuva Geogroda wrote:
Jupiter wrote: What did you on the testserver? There is no hint what you have actually tried to achieve.
He stated very specifically he tried to survive with three maxed out chars to test if they could.
They failed, the monsters were too strong.
That is not very specific since there different areas with different monsters. "Survive" can also mean just runnig away. What they probably didn't.
That is not what you stated nor what you asked.
You said already what survive means in this context. Seriously we can just keep arguing about that or read what Mephistopheles writes.

My whole point is: it is very clear what he did, there are lots of hints about it so we do not need to derail the thread with such questions. Nor are more specifics needed.
As Annabeth also manages to comprehend it just like me I am encouraging Mephistopheles to keep on writing and describing like that because to me it seems very constructive and helpful.
User avatar
Uhuru
Posts: 924
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:56 am
Location: In time out, where else?

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Uhuru »

Annabeth wrote:
Jupiter wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:we did this on the test server
An example already brought up in this topic is the cult of Salavesh, where even maxed characters can no longer go. Yet a quest in Cadomyr easily accessible to new players, tell you to go there. This is something which obviously needs change, in one way or another.
Barti,
If you have a problem with a specific area, please write it up in mantis. We need to know what is wrong and why along with what you think needs to be done to fix it. I don't recognize "Salavesh" so Annabeth, thank you for telling us the issue this has in terms of the quest. If this is a problem, as you seem to think it may be, it should be put in mantis.

Thank you.
User avatar
Estralis Seborian
Posts: 12308
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
Location: Sir Postalot
Contact:

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Estralis Seborian »

I basically read that it is a bad idea to give out quests to dangerous areas?
User avatar
Tinuva Geogroda
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:46 am
Location: A Tree In The Northern Forest, Oh Noes, The Northern Forest Is Mine Now!! Mwhahaha...

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Tinuva Geogroda »

Estralis Seborian wrote:I basically read that it is a bad idea to give out quests to dangerous areas?
I think it is a bad idea to give out a quest from the town "welcomer" to dangerous areas.

The one in Galmair leads you to the library where you get a quest to go in the sewers. Which will kill a new player.
The one in Cadomyr sends you to the orc at Reginald's Tomb. Which will kill a new player too.
They are NPCs made for the purpose of helping a new player out with quests in the town, when they first join. Instead they send them to their impending doom.
User avatar
Quinasa
Posts: 2959
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:34 am
Location: The land of cuteness and stuff!
Contact:

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Quinasa »

The quests you get as a 'welcomer' are not meant to be completed right away, and sometimes I'm sure they are meant to be completed with assistance from other characters. One should not be able to create a new character, log in, and raise their rank so fast.
Annabeth
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Annabeth »

Quinasa wrote:The quests you get as a 'welcomer' are not meant to be completed right away, and sometimes I'm sure they are meant to be completed with assistance from other characters. One should not be able to create a new character, log in, and raise their rank so fast.
You still needed help or skill with the salavesh quest after the first quest in the quest-line before the changes.
However currently you can not complete it even with help, as maxed characters that go into that place get swarmed and killed, not only new ones.
Another thing to note is that a quest that leads a new player to its imminent death will more than likely make a negative impact on this players first experience of the game, which is why it should not be in the welcomer characters list of quests anymore.
User avatar
Tinuva Geogroda
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:46 am
Location: A Tree In The Northern Forest, Oh Noes, The Northern Forest Is Mine Now!! Mwhahaha...

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Tinuva Geogroda »

Quinasa wrote:The quests you get as a 'welcomer' are not meant to be completed right away, and sometimes I'm sure they are meant to be completed with assistance from other characters. One should not be able to create a new character, log in, and raise their rank so fast.
That is obvious, Quinasa, the point is attempting to do so will kill you. Going down the crypt makes all mummies swarm to you and lock you in if you're unlucky.
And that is what you get sent to instantly by the welcomer.

There is no floor to stop you from falling it just drops you in the pit. If you go in and notice you cannot fight those mummies off then you go back. If you go in and you get swarmed before you get a hit.. that is where it becomes frustrating as a newcomer.
User avatar
Uhuru
Posts: 924
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:56 am
Location: In time out, where else?

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Uhuru »

Tinuva Geogroda wrote:
Quinasa wrote:The quests you get as a 'welcomer' are not meant to be completed right away, and sometimes I'm sure they are meant to be completed with assistance from other characters. One should not be able to create a new character, log in, and raise their rank so fast.
That is obvious, Quinasa, the point is attempting to do so will kill you. Going down the crypt makes all mummies swarm to you and lock you in if you're unlucky.
And that is what you get sent to instantly by the welcomer.

There is no floor to stop you from falling it just drops you in the pit. If you go in and notice you cannot fight those mummies off then you go back. If you go in and you get swarmed before you get a hit.. that is where it becomes frustrating as a newcomer.
But that hasn't changed. That has always been. Even before the pathfinder change this was a problem.
User avatar
Tinuva Geogroda
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:46 am
Location: A Tree In The Northern Forest, Oh Noes, The Northern Forest Is Mine Now!! Mwhahaha...

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Tinuva Geogroda »

Uhuru wrote:
Tinuva Geogroda wrote:
Quinasa wrote:The quests you get as a 'welcomer' are not meant to be completed right away, and sometimes I'm sure they are meant to be completed with assistance from other characters. One should not be able to create a new character, log in, and raise their rank so fast.
That is obvious, Quinasa, the point is attempting to do so will kill you. Going down the crypt makes all mummies swarm to you and lock you in if you're unlucky.
And that is what you get sent to instantly by the welcomer.

There is no floor to stop you from falling it just drops you in the pit. If you go in and notice you cannot fight those mummies off then you go back. If you go in and you get swarmed before you get a hit.. that is where it becomes frustrating as a newcomer.
But that hasn't changed. That has always been. Even before the pathfinder change this was a problem.
I am not sure how you would think that as I had no problem with that either.
Of course I couldn't swipe the sewers the first time I had to go in but I had enough room to get out.
Instead of 8 monsters a mere 2 would come so I wasn't blocked or overwhelmed. I lost but I can get out.

Same goes for the crypts, albeit a bit harder at the start due to the small entrance room compared to the sewers, you can go in and you didn't instantly die or get blocked. You had time to fight, run and make your decisions.
User avatar
Tyan Masines
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Tyan Masines »

I agree (and did the testing), before the pathfinding you did not get flanked by four enemies once you entered the crypt. You were able to fight one enemy at once, prudent for a newbie dungeon.

Please, before you post something, make sure what you are saying is backed up by facts.



I have posted a general reply to the Reginald's Tomb area and creatures here.
Alessaina
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 5:22 am
Location: Kansas City, Missouri

Re: The New Pathfinding (Feedback)

Post by Alessaina »

Tyan Masines wrote:I agree (and did the testing), before the pathfinding you did not get flanked by four enemies once you entered the crypt. You were able to fight one enemy at once, prudent for a newbie dungeon.
I agree as well. I know that when I took a new char through the sewers, I was able to fight off slimes one by one prior to the pathfinding system in place. Now that we have it, I'm a tad scared to take my main char down there even with her higher levels.
Locked