Division of crafts

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Mr.Oldie
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Division of crafts

Post by Mr.Oldie »

There seems to be a discussion going on about crafts that seems to be in a wrong thread.
Also I hear that staff is discussing about crafts on a broad scale.
So hear some thoughts.. additions... changes.. i would like the illarionites to take into consideration.

There are three factions.
So to be fair to all three the number of crafts should be an exact multiple of3
On that note i made this list.

Tailor, Glass blower, Finesmith, Digger, Tanner/Dyer,Fisher,
Blacksmith, Alchemist, Brewer, Miner, Gem grinder, Mason,
Carpenter, Cook/Baker, Witchcraft, Farmer, Lumberjack, Candlemaker,

The changes in the above crafts- list are..
1. Witchcraft : added because it would/should be there in future.
2. Alchemy: used instead of herb gatherer(explained later on.)
3. Merged Mason and brickmaker. Face it, its redundant.
4. Split some of the "resource gathering"crafts in the previous list to better allocate.

This new list of crafts can be split in 3 calsses:(just for explaining purposes)
Main craft, Sub-craft, Hobby-craft (for the lack of a better word.. hobby :D)
This would help in dividing the crafts.
Maincrafts: lots of craftable items in each. and difficult in leveling up.
Sub craft: only deals with gathering or supporting other crafts and are not by itself as important as main crafts.
Hobby crafts: easy to lvl up compared to main crafts, have single/very lil items of use from these crafts, having more than two in a faction seems a waste of slot for a craft in a faction.

And here is what i imagine a well-divided crafting list should be like...

Cadomyr:
P:
Tailor, Glass blower, Finesmith, Digger, Tanner/Dyer,Fisher,
S: Blacksmith, Witchcraft, Brewer, Miner, Gem grinder, Candlemaker,
Galmair:
P:
Blacksmith, Alchemist, Brewer, Miner, Gem grinder, Mason,
S: Carpenter, Cook/Baker, Finesmith, Farmer, Lumberjack, Fisher,
Runewick:
P:
Carpenter, Cook/Baker, Witchcraft, Farmer, Lumberjack, Candlemaker,
S: Tailor, Glass blower, Alchemist, Digger, Tanner/Dyer, Mason,

As you can see:
In each factions primary/secondary list there are 3 main craft, 2 sub craft and 1 hobby craft.
As a PO chars from different factions i do think am thinking impartially and trying to see each fation gets it fair share of crafts, important or other-wise.

Reasoning:

Why witchcraft?
There has been talks about giving the mages a crafting method like alchemist.
I assume the magical/elemental weapons would soon be given over to mages to craft with the use of a static tool. If this is not yet on the table i strongly suggest it should be.
In which case this should be considered as a craft and should also be included while we divide up the crafts now so that later on a faction wont end up wth more/less number of crafts than others.

Why alchemy and not herb gathering?
Well to be honest, using the name herb gathering would make it a sub craft. and i wanted it to be a main craft.
Also if we were to split the craft into alchemy as main craft and herb gathering as a sub craft would just make the balancing of the crafts difficult again.

Why no alchemy in cadomyr?
Alchemy should be considered as a craft and limited to 2 factions. Currently all the factions have the static tool for it.
Amnt asking for the removal of the teacher and the thinking stone from cadomyr, just the cauldrons(static tools)
Its the only craft that is currently in all factions.

Why not make witchcraft and alchemy available to all factions?
IF anyone can think up on
{two more craft important enough to be a main craft}
OR
{can merge two main crafts together and think up of one more main craft}
such that all three factions would be happy then i will very well balance the crafts again and make a new list.
Making either or both available to all factions seems not possible by the way am currently thinking.
They should afterall be considered as crafts and subject to the craft-divisions.

Why both alchemy and witchcraft in Runewick?
Simple. Its the faction of knowledge.
Its the same as having both blacksmith and finesmith in Galmair

Why remove brewing from runewick and add it in cadomyr?
Mainly for proper balancing purpose by number of crafts.
I can also argue that brewing has not much to do with farming. so it can be given over to cadomyr.
and brewing is secondary to cadomyr so lack of resources are expected.
Moreover on RP/storyline based reasons. Runewick, to me, has that dignified- intellectual flare which shouldnt be tarnished with alcohol. :D

On the matter of fishing:
I dont care either way if fishing is given to runewick or galmair.
Though if runewick has cooking and baking as the main craft there should be an abundance of food there. and fishing should be given to galmair if its thought in that way.
Anyways as an alternative, If runewick gets fishing then for balancing purposes this would be what happens with the hobby-crafts.
Cadomyr:
P:
Fisher,
S: Mason,
Galmair:
P:
Mason,
S: Candlemaker,
Runewick:
P:
Candlemaker,
S: Fisher


I would be happy to help with changing the prices in NPC and such things if this craft division is applied.
Ill edit and add any reasoning if anyone feels this division is unfair :)
Last edited by Mr.Oldie on Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jupiter
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Jupiter »

Alchemy will not be removed from any town.
Mr.Oldie
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Mr.Oldie »

mmm yeah.
willl think up alternative and add soonish :)
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Jupiter
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Jupiter »

And you might want to remove magic as well from your considerations. It is not even clear how it will look like.
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Tinuva Geogroda
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Tinuva Geogroda »

I think the point here is that alchemy/witchcraft removing/adding to a few towns could be considered saying "Cadomyr can only have swordsmen, Galmair can only have spearmen and Runewick can only have archers".

I think those crafts are closer to a sub-set of, oh yeah im saying it, magic.

Thus splitting that up would make no sense to me I think.
I agree it could be endorsed more in a certain town but I think its too much of a hybrid between craft and maybe fighting or even living style to not be able to do it at all in one town.
Mr.Oldie
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Mr.Oldie »

mmm.
Yeah i did think this might be a problem.
But wasnt sure how to deal with it. or if it was better this way.
Anyways now that alchemy is out, its better to remove witchcraft along with it.

We are left with 7 main crafts then.
i could merge cook/baker with brewer and create 6 main skills and make it like this


Cadomyr:
P:
Glass blower, Finesmith, Digger, Tanner/Dyer,Fisher,
S: Blacksmith, Tailor, Miner, Gem grinder, Candlemaker,
Galmair:
P:
Blacksmith, Carpenter, Miner, Gem grinder, Mason,
S: Cook/Baker/Brewer, Finesmith, Farmer, Lumberjack, Fisher,
Runewick:
P:
Tailor, Cook/Baker/Brewer, Farmer, Lumberjack, Candlemaker,
S: Carpenter, Glass blower, Digger, Tanner/Dyer, Mason,

You could change between carpenter and cook/baker/brewer in galmair and runewick (as primary and secondary) depending on which seems better.
Which ever faction gets the cook/baker/brewer as the secondary should get the fish too IMO.
And whichever faction gets the cook/baker/brewer and candle maker as primary should get the honey bees too. and have safe farms.
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Uhuru
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Uhuru »

I like the adjusted list, though I'm not sure what "digger" is. Could you define that for me please? For me, a digger is the ability to dig... ie: dig treasures, which is learned in a mine. So, I think I have a disconnect here.
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Jupiter
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Jupiter »

Sand and clay.
Mr.Oldie
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Mr.Oldie »

i've allocated diggger along with glass blowing in this case. As in sand.
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GolfLima
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by GolfLima »

@Mr. Oldie

:arrow: Runewick has the most fishing grounds
:arrow: fishing should be a major craft there than (at you´re list is NO fishing at Runewick)

:arrow: otherwise sounds interesting
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Jupiter
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Jupiter »

That list is just a rearrangement, but it doesn't solve problems. Examples:

All important crafts (smithing, tailoring, crapentry, for that matter also alchemy) require gems. It is hard to say that a town supports one of those crafts without a gem grinder.
Same for digging and mason. No clay, no bricks.
No fishing and cooking is not fully supported.

Fishing, digging, gem grinding etc are crafts which are necessary for other crafts. They should be distributed according to the main crafts. If that means that every town needs a gem grinder, than be it that way.
Mr.Oldie
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Mr.Oldie »

@Golflima
This is just a proposal.
Not a list of how it is now.
Am sure if this list is approved the appropriate amount of Fishing tiles will be allocated to the correct factions.
Just trying out different balance before it can be made final.

I would however suggest that Cadomyr be given the highest fishing tiles seeing as how they dont have any cooking or similar crafts. My reasoning goes like this:

Fishing: |P|||||S|||||*|
Cooking:|*|||||S|||||P|

Where cooking is primary there is no need for fish and vice versa.
Mr.Oldie
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Mr.Oldie »

@jupiter

Wasnt it a fact that "all the resources were not given so as to increase trade relaions"?
If however everything/crucial supporting crafts are provided in each faction, wouldnt that defeat the purpose?

The idea for digging or gem grinding being provided to certain factions according to my set-up was to further this trade.
Also giving them primary to a faction would also mean that the npcs would provide better costs to the things/tools that are related directly to it.

If you are thinking of "globalising" certain support crafts are there valid reasons for it?
Are there valid reasons for not globalising other crafts?

Like
blacksmith would need grey cloth. are you willing to provide a loom to a faction which doesnt have tailoring?
finesmith needs handles. will a carpenting table be provided in a desert?
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Jupiter
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Jupiter »

Mr.Oldie wrote:finesmith needs handles. will a carpenting table be provided in a desert?
Needles are a prodcut of a main craft. Therefore, no.

In the end, it is a question of balancing. Fixed rules do not always succeed in fulfilling that task. Having e.g. cooking as a main craft, but no fish available ist quite much an obvious flaw, since all resoucres for main crafts should be there. And I consider fish in the end to be a resouce for cooking - not for fishing.
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Velisai
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Velisai »

What is wrong with the current distribution? All this started with fish, remember? Who cares if Runewick has twenty or a million fishing spots? Only lizards eat it anyway, so give all towns at least 5 spots so that race can be played properly in any town and be done with it. The crafts work fine and are pretty well distributed. There is far more important stuff to tinker with than this.
Mr.Oldie
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Mr.Oldie »

@Jupiter
I guess you quoted the wrong sentence.
If you are speaking of needle and blacksmithing: Providing a loom wouldnt affect it in anyway as a loom can only produce grey cloth and it needs only scissors(if i remember correctly) which wouldnt bring the whole tailoring craft over to a thrid faction.

Even though am personally against it; the slution i can think of to balance a craft with availabilty is change the materials required to craft it with the resources available from that place.
Like armour no longer needing grey cloth. tailoring no longer needing gem dust etc etc

Isnt it better to give most of the resources and make the rest be available only through trade?
Making factions a standalone-place for their crafts would further isolate characters IMO.
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Tinuva Geogroda
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Tinuva Geogroda »

Velisai wrote:There is far more important stuff to tinker with than this.
I believe that should not stop people discussing and talking about it.
Putting manpower to immediately change this =/= a forum topic discussing the pros, cons and other aspects of a system.

It would be hard to balance this fully though, since the crafts arent 1:1 copies of eachother.
Everything seems fine to me, although I must admit cooking is a pain to learn.
Mr.Oldie
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Mr.Oldie »

@Vel
I do like the current distribution too;
but seems there are others who dont.
So i was just trying out to balance a few kinks.
___________________

I just wanted to create a proper platform for discussion of crafts :D
All this fish business getting compared with main crafts was kinda Irritating actually.
If fishes are supposed to be a support craft to cooking then give both the cooking factions fishes.
In which case cadomyr will stay deserted most probably.
IF only primary cooking is given fishes then give balance the number of primary maincrafts in each faction and give them all the resources in that faction. Which was what i was trying to do

Solve and balance it in such a way that everyone is happy.. or in a way that it makes sense and is proper at the very least.
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Velisai
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Velisai »

Cadomyr is not deserted because of the craft distribution. You can eat tangerines, fish or buy more advanced food somewhere else. The lack of carpentry is no worse than a lack of smithed or tailored goods.

I have not read of any discontent about the distribution of crafts in general either here, nor in the fish topic. This one only exists cause Jupiter wrote:
With the current distribution of crafts, Galamair won't get any. Simple as that.

The staff will discuss the distribution of crafts on a broad scale, but not temporary and small messing around.
I just don't think fish or the lack thereof warrants a rehaul of the entire distribution.


One point Jerem did raise, is that Galmair has pretty much all of it's resources outside the guard NPC protected area, while Runewick has most resources in a safe zone(which was made safe due to in game efforts towards that). I think this is not very important either and if any change should occur, it should be an ic issue.

Can't stop you from discussing this further and you are welcome to, but I wonder why you'd want to.
Mr.Oldie
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Re: Division of crafts

Post by Mr.Oldie »

As long as people dont find anything difficult or unfair about how things are right now, am alright with the things staying the way they are.
In that case any further discussion is not needed.
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