Do skills matter.

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themonk
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Do skills matter.

Post by themonk »

Hi

I was wondering in a rough percentage how much skills effect fighting compared to attributes?

Im not alone in thinking skills should at least matter 50%, a lot of players from before the VBU feel disappointed in their characters performances after years of training.

Also when armour skill came out we transferred skills from dodge to armour type. How come we couldn't spend our hard earned tactics points on a secondary armour type?

The armour system also raises some concerns on new players. Its hard enough to survive as a noob but now you have to wear rubbish armour and use poor weapons.

Perhaps these could be looked into?
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Leon Demelii
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Leon Demelii »

I agree in this statement. Although I am still trying the grasp even the smallest idea of how/what stats and skills do together, it does seem rather unbalanced already. I will not go into details but my character (Who is expereinced with all weapons) doesn't seem to do any different testing different kinds of weapons out on the same warrior or armor. Example being: sword vs heavy armor, dagger vs. heavy armor and concussion vs. heavy armor. I have seen a very small difference between the three but nothing drastic.
As far a the newbies go... they have nowhere to go but run into a town and find someone to help them (That may just be my opinion, and if it is, this statement is moot.) Otherwise they will venture off simply for sight-seeing and find themselves getting angry as to why they got killed. Again if I am wrong than disregard this part of the post.
This might go without saying, and I am sure devolopers are on this but there are a few monsters out there that are very unbalanced. Why should my character be able to fight a dragon with ease and than have a spider come along that kills him without a standing chance? Should it not be the other way around? Perhaps I am being too realistic... and if so I do apologize. (You can disregard this as well)

This post is to only get some answers from the right people. Hopefully it will. I mean on harm on it. Just curiosity. :D
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themonk
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by themonk »

Would it be possible to boost all the players by making skills mean more in battle and if monsters become too weak for the real tough guys, then make the suitable monsters tougher?
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GolfLima
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by GolfLima »

@themonk:
i dont like this idea - why should fighters be more supported in gaining skill than crafters?
if monsters become stronger more and more this will be the death for crafters / nonfighters at all -> finally all need to be "fighters" than
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Mephistopheles »

the stats and skills are rather balanced but you just need to do alot of experimenting. and I have noticed a huge difference in weps vs armors, in fact because Bart uses heavy armor he can often get beat by people lower than him in slashing and medium armor. but Bart can fight all archers and even stand toe to toe with a spider queen but gets massacred by unholy archmages which those in medium armor can easily fight. I can also beat Jefferson Gray (who has master skills and appropriate stats) because he uses heavy armor as well as I do, but he also uses daggers which are useless against heavy armor. Theres really just alot of experimenting involved with equipment, stats, armors, etc. etc.

have fun cause I'm still figuring it all out.
Annabeth
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Annabeth »

You did get your tactics skill into your armor skill. The formula was (dodge+tactics)/2= (chosen type) armor
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Uhuru
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Uhuru »

I guess what I don't understand is how my character's slashing can be 100, using a level 100 gemmed sword and it is getting dodged by a sheep. Or a cow. Or a pig. Something seems off by this. Any slashing weapon, at any level, without gems, is being dodged. Lower the level the more it is dodged. BY A SHEEP. The sheep doesn't even move. Just standing there my swing misses.

Anyone else having this problem?

edit: just had 6 misses out of 9 against a standing sheep.
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Mephistopheles »

the slashing weapons do have different accuracies and some are faster or slower but by a very little. the two handed axes and swords actually are more accurate but swing much slower, but a one handed drow blade is the most accurate slasher I've seen. many get alot of failed hits also depending on the type of armor a sword would do much better against light or heavy armor but medium can make the opponent block more and you have more failed hits
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themonk
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by themonk »

GolfLima wrote:@themonk:
i dont like this idea - why should fighters be more supported in gaining skill than crafters?
if monsters become stronger more and more this will be the death for crafters / nonfighters at all -> finally all need to be "fighters" than
I didn't say gain skills easier I said make skills matter more! Also I said beef up appropriate monsters not scarabs and foxes you bump into on a regular. A crafter shouldn't be able to fight anything anyway because well... hes a crafter... If a crafter wants to use a sword however THEN LEARN (via skills, more of a reason to bring skills into it).

Don't agree watch 300 and listen to Leonardas, -----> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6sARmxEuc

Annabeth, Gurks dodge and tactics was almost maxed at both being 80/90+ so why is his med armour only 80 then?

I would of thought you all would agree that your hard earned skill gainz would be more useful if made more important (just a tad if all)...

Lastly if crafting skills can benefit anymore with well crafting, then I propose making that better... As Gurk isn't a crafter I don't know what im talking about so maybe Golflama can make his own proposal about crafting skills?

Going back to appropriate monsters I mean dragons, demons, lions and tigers and bears OH MY! something to challenge the fighter if beefing skills makes then tougher.
Last edited by themonk on Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Mephistopheles »

its mainly about armors and weapon types now as I've said and stats too. Bart almost beat a Diamond golem by himself thats damn good enough for me and I dont have skill mastery nor even the rights ones to face down a diamond golem. and also on tactics an dodge, I had 80 dodge as well but because my char was created post VBU i had no tactics, so I started with 46 armor from my 80+ dodge... I didnt complain. you really just need to test everything out, figure what your char is good against and weak against and act accordingly.
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themonk
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by themonk »

Edited my post ^^

Yh I agree with you Meph buddy, I just need to hear from the GMs how much skills are worth before I make a solid case. Until then I could be bitching about nothing.

I just think if skills only matter like 30% I want to cry myself to sleep.

So both tactics and dodge was added up and halved? lol so whats the point in adding them together?

I know Illa isn't RL but I'd also like to add that ive done martial arts for many years and before I sliced my finger open at work recently I was at my peak of physical fitness in stamina and strength. I have sparred with middle aged + fighters and they have tackled me to the ground tied me into a pretty bow and put me on top of a present for xmas with PURE SKILL no str, cons and aglity needed just experience.

If stats make the character it means if you want a great warrior he got to have no intelligence, An alchemist to be a frail clever clogs and a crafter to be rich but not amount to much else... Very black and white.

Its just a proposal folks and abit of information seeking, if im talking rubbish and no body agrees with me ill let it lie and never speak of this again. I have no problem admitting im wrong but if you think I got a point please speak up...

P.s Thinking of the noobs also, they now have to level up to get good armour making it harder for them.
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Uhuru
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Uhuru »

So, sheep, pigs, and cows are wearing armor? Is that why I'm missing them, because I don't understand it. My character looks like she's never held a sword before in her life. Yet, she's top of the class. Axes, swords, all slashing types, even the drow blade, tried them all. Still misses against sheep, pigs, and cows. If she can't hit a sheep, what hope is there for her against other monsters? Seriously? Ones that actually have training and armor and weapons.
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Ufedhin
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Ufedhin »

Uhuru wrote:So, sheep, pigs, and cows are wearing armor? Is that why I'm missing them, because I don't understand it. My character looks like she's never held a sword before in her life. Yet, she's top of the class. Axes, swords, all slashing types, even the drow blade, tried them all. Still misses against sheep, pigs, and cows. If she can't hit a sheep, what hope is there for her against other monsters? Seriously? Ones that actually have training and armor and weapons.
I find this strange, Ufedhin kills a meat animal in two or thee hits , occasionally he might miss a sheep ,cow or pig with a blow , i cant imagine why you are having trouble with this.

And i do agree Gurk skill should count for atleast 75% of a warriors effectiveness ,an old swords master would in a fair fight serve a novice his own head for breakfast anyday of the week no matter how strong or tough ,
Equipment would be a mitigating factor for example ,if the master was in his underpants with a butter knife and the novice in full armour with a battle axe it might go the novices way .
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themonk
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by themonk »

Thanks for your support and feedback Ufedhin.

Hi Uhuru, what is your characters perception? Gurk misses a lot to, I accept it caus he's a blind old mule lol.
Perhaps a GM could shed some light on Uhurus problem. If it is her eyesight a few gold with the trainer should get her slaying sheep in no time ;) .

P.s this only proves my proposal more about attributes and skill balance if a short sighted blades maiden can't slay a sleep lol.

If in RL you couldn't amount to anything through hard work and dedication just because you was born slightly unfit or less intelligent I'd find that somewhat depressing.
Mr.Oldie
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Mr.Oldie »

Puting the skill effectiveness to 75% would be too bad i think.
a 50-50 would be a better solution.

As far as i know each weapon skill requires 1 main attribute and 2 sub attributes in the damage calculation.
There is a weapon factor too which is a constant to all character(if same weapon is used) so that is not much to talk about.

how about 20-15-15-50 for attribute-skill effectiveness.
Or may be even 30-10-10-50 to give more importance to the primary attribute.

Reducing the effectiveness of attribute would almost 've a major -ve effect in the attribute altering items in-game like food and potions. Already food is not much sought after. i dont want the same to happen to potions too.
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Uhuru
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Uhuru »

Is perception really used so much in calculating that she can't see a sheep right in front of her face? Unless perception is at 0, that seems wrong.
themonk wrote:Thanks for your support and feedback Ufedhin.

Hi Uhuru, what is your characters perception? Gurk misses a lot to, I accept it caus he's a blind old mule lol.
Perhaps a GM could shed some light on Uhurus problem. If it is her eyesight a few gold with the trainer should get her slaying sheep in no time ;) .

P.s this only proves my proposal more about attributes and skill balance if a short sighted blades maiden can't slay a sleep lol.

If in RL you couldn't amount to anything through hard work and dedication just because you was born slightly unfit or less intelligent I'd find that somewhat depressing.
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themonk
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by themonk »

Uhuru wrote:Is perception really used so much in calculating that she can't see a sheep right in front of her face? Unless perception is at 0, that seems wrong.
themonk wrote:Thanks for your support and feedback Ufedhin.

Hi Uhuru, what is your characters perception? Gurk misses a lot to, I accept it caus he's a blind old mule lol.
Perhaps a GM could shed some light on Uhurus problem. If it is her eyesight a few gold with the trainer should get her slaying sheep in no time ;) .

P.s this only proves my proposal more about attributes and skill balance if a short sighted blades maiden can't slay a sleep lol.

If in RL you couldn't amount to anything through hard work and dedication just because you was born slightly unfit or less intelligent I'd find that somewhat depressing.
This is why im making this post.
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Uhuru
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Uhuru »

Under perception for my character it says... "Considering your race and your age, you see and hear as much as any normal person would." So she sees normally. She has a slashing skill of 99 and looks like she has never held a sword before because she misses the sheep that is standing right in front of her face. See above, 6 misses out of 9. This is not a joke, it happens. Or she misses every other swing. It does only take 2 to 3 hits to actually kill a sheep, but they have to land and cause damage.

Why is it taking 3 hits to kill a sheep when skills are so high? Doesn't seem to matter if I use a low-level slashing weapon or my higher-level gemmed one.

And, where does skill come in? Shouldn't it be weighted a little heavier?
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Velisai
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Velisai »

Let's say sheep have 10k hit points. 3 hits mean you are doing some serious damage with each, at least 3,334 hp. To reduce it to 2 hits you'd need to do 5k hp of damage, which is an increase of almost 50%.

That doesn't explain bad hit rates though. 6 misses of 9 on sheep should be very exceptionally bad luck for a skilled char. Maybe sheep have much too high agility?

Reducing the effectiveness of attribute would almost 've a major -ve effect in the attribute altering items in-game like food and potions. Already food is not much sought after. i dont want the same to happen to potions too.
If people think food is not important now, they simply are wrong. Even a single point on top of already high attributes makes a noticeable difference in many situations. Adding a point to a low attribute helps even more.
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Mephistopheles »

Skills do matter. Leon can beat Bartimaeus through skill even though Bart is stronger and faster. But when it comes down to it two warriors with equal skills but one has a warrior build and the other has a crafter or mage or whatever build the warrior build will win everytime.

I think the devs made stats more important to a characters role since the vbu and when magic comes back and we get more archers there will be more versatility. But whats important to know is how your char is built and for what purpose. There is no jack of all trades in illa.
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Uhuru
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by Uhuru »

Uhuru just wants to be able to kill sheep that stand in front of her!
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themonk
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Re: Do skills matter.

Post by themonk »

The HP on livestock could be lowered. After all you don't slit a pigs throat three times lol.

Even when fighting mummies Gurk can have a flurry of misses. It does get annoying.

Now dodge is gone he seems to get hit more also.
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