Add NPC for MC Check

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Post by Vern Kron » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:31 am

Add NPC for MC Check

Hey,

I realize this will be an insanely unpopular idea, but I am throwing it out there for the sake of ideas.

Could we have a fortune-teller like npc that for 20 silver, tells us information about our MC?

I realize that all ways to detect MC both through gm's, test server, etc had been removed because it was considered too much of a focus by players, and that a window or some kind of gui was being made to be representative of that, but this may be a good stop gap for the time being. I'm not sure I would consider this to be an extremely important piece of information, but it would be a nice quality of life feature for those that would care about it. It may not be a play style that you want, but it is at least a play style that has people in the game.

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Post by Brightrim » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:27 pm

Re: Add NPC for MC Check

I'd be in favour of this. I think this serves the RPers more than it does the PGers.
By being able to check your MC you'd be able to minimize the time spent PGing and maximize the time spent RPing.
Or depending on the activity of the playerbase like now, at least be available for RP in hotspots instead of being far off doing your own thing.
All while still being able to skill whatever is relevant for your characters RP to learn, without putting in a ton of unnecessary hours you could spend RPing due to not knowing your MC was high.

As for putting the function on an npc, for a cost, instead of part of a GMs kit:
It makes it so that the GM doesn't need to be bothered each time like in the past, and adds a money drain to the game.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:50 pm

Re: Add NPC for MC Check

"It may not be a play style that you want, but it is at least a play style that has people in the game."

Some old and newer players may enjoy this. I can see players still following this play style.. Others don't and wouldn't use it. I can't imagine this would interfere with players RPing though any ideas on that issue would be welcome.

Now that the MC is set up that players can earn all the time I'm not sure there is a negative value except the time to set this up? The money cost is also an asset. May be fun at the Hemptie? :D



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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:07 pm

Re: Add NPC for MC Check

I do not mind the idea of having an MC-NPC in the game. I would not mind to not have it either, tho. Not sure whether I would use it, so far I never really had the urge to know my MC, but I can see why some people would like to have the chance without bothering a gm.

I just want to add one point: The NPC should not just say something like "Your MC is xyz." and rather be immersive, but I think that was already involved in Artimer's idea of having a fortune-teller.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:22 am

Re: Add NPC for MC Check

Please provide the rationale why an NPC should be used rather than other more easily available methods. Also, please define the exact output. Thank you.

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Post by Brightrim » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:31 am

Re: Add NPC for MC Check

Estralis Seborian wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:22 am
Please provide the rationale why an NPC should be used rather than other more easily available methods. Also, please define the exact output. Thank you.
What would other easily available methods be? For the sake of discussion so that we can potentially cover the pros and cons of them all.

My view on why it should be an NPC is that it allows it to be a gold sink. Not sure how else you could add a price tag to it.

Though just like the trainers did, it might blur the lines a little between engine and RP, like people saying in their RP that they are going to visit the trainer to become smarter or stronger or whatever. Whether this counts as a pro or a con, I don't know.

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Post by Vern Kron » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:21 am

Re: Add NPC for MC Check

Brightrim wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:31 am
( other stuff that is important too, but not relevant to this exact reply)
Though just like the trainers did, it might blur the lines a little between engine and RP, like people saying in their RP that they are going to visit the trainer to become smarter or stronger or whatever. Whether this counts as a pro or a con, I don't know.
For me, the trainers are part of the game. They exist, and not merely mystery ghosts. We have trainers in real life who do this exact same thing: they tutor you, they educate you, they make you work out, they give you therapy and make you more stable, etc. I think they are a fully functioning part of the game, and I really don't see why we drive such a hard line between 'engine' and 'roleplay'. That's my soapbox.


As for 'more available methods' I am not sure what you mean? The current method is unknown, if there is one. If it is dependent upon a gamemaster, as far as I can tell we have a limited number of those and they could probably use their time spent on doing other stuff.

It also does not have to be an npc, it could just be a command put into chat box, for example !mc. It would respond with "Your current MC is 99999." That would ideally be more effective and efficient, and would have lesser impact to the roleplay world if that is a concern. Players get information that is readily accessible and lets them know what is going on with their character, and can inform how they play the game.

While I know this won't be a big change, and won't be a huge feature or such, it would be helpful in teaching newer-ish players. Also, this is information I am constantly interested in, and I am curious about, so I'd like to see it. It doesn't really impact my play, I just like to know.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:29 am

Re: Add NPC for MC Check

Sorry for not elaborating possible entry points. Basically, every action you invoke in the game can trigger a consequence: Using an item (potion, tool, door, hedge,...), walking to a certain place, attacking someone, getting into the range of a monster, even saying something. Also, time itself is a possible entry point via long term effects or scheduled scripts. Boundaries for creativity are almost non-existant.

The thing about NPCs is that they do not know MC. So we'd have to code something custom for the NPC framework or have a pure LUA NPC like the trainers. The effort for this is comparably high.

Is "Your current MC is 99999." the only proposal for the output? I find this highly unimmersive, to be honest.

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Post by Brightrim » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:47 pm

Re: Add NPC for MC Check

Vern Kron wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:21 am
For me, the trainers are part of the game. They exist, and not merely mystery ghosts. We have trainers in real life who do this exact same thing: they tutor you, they educate you, they make you work out, they give you therapy and make you more stable, etc. I think they are a fully functioning part of the game, and I really don't see why we drive such a hard line between 'engine' and 'roleplay'. That's my soapbox.
Like I said, I won't say whether it counts as a pro or con. In the case of trainers, there are people who treat it like you said: Educators, tutors, personal trainers, therapists, etc.
However there are others, and I won't mention names, who take it at face value. Treating it like this one guy who magically takes something from you in return for something else. Then in their RP saying something like "I can't read maps anymore because I went to the trainer to increase my strength instead", or similar atmosphere breaking things that blur the lines of engine and RP. Of course, the kind of people like that are often the same people who literally talk about their skill in-character, claim to have mastered fighting or the likes just because they hit level 100, as if there's nothing left to learn in the RP-sense of it, etc.

So is it good to have more npcs in that category of blurring the lines?
On one side, why should we control the environment just because some people can't see beyond the engine?
On the other, maybe catering to people who have difficulties seeing where the lines are is what we should do for a better RP atmosphere?

I think this also goes into the dilemma of how we did not see actual numbers for things in the past, versus how we see levels and what not as numerical values now, and what effect that has on the game.


Also, here's a previous thread on the topic when it was last discussed:

viewtopic.php?t=41152

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Post by Vern Kron » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:47 am

Re: Add NPC for MC Check

I was mainly looking for an easy way to pull a piece of information to be reachable by the players. Making an NPC for MC was something that seemed relatively simple, but it has become clear that it is not.

The idea of a chat command that prompts a little blue text that informs of MC was my next solution because as far as I can tell MC is an ooc means of controlling player behavior. In the same way that I would use !GM to send a report, and then get a small non-intrusive message that says a GM will look soon. That was more what I had in mind for a !MC command, rather than some IG mechanism if an npc isn't easily feasible.

And if there isn't huge support for it, I get that too. I do recall the MC responses in the pre-vbu would inform when you weren't learning as well (or at all?). People would talk about it, but I don't usually see those things as that intrusive, particularly in how it was styled at the time. (Or, for that matter, how 'yellow' is 'yellow' and how to use MSpaint to figure out if you have mastered something. It seemed like leveling took a lot more effort back then, but I also didn't have a great idea on how to do things like that. But also, level mattered in a different way back then. While crafting stuff was still level locked, I don't recall equipment being level locked like it is now. Due to an error, most people would use serinjah swords, and probably duel wield them. But that is now an entirely different system, and I am not sure if we could call those times as 'quality' roleplay either.)

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