Let's talk about mining.

[CJK]

Before you redirect me to the dozens of Mantis posts about this issue, hear me out. Because I'm not talking about the same thing as any of them. And frankly, Mantis is a poor way to have discussions with as many players as possible.



I have a pickaxe to grind with our collection system, especially mining. Specifically, the fact that it just... isn't intrinsically fun.
Here's every experience I have ever had with mining:
1) Dump everything into depot and switch into minimal clothing and 5 pickaxes.
2) Walk to mine.
3) click a rock.
4) Alt+tab to Reddit, Mantis, the forum, whatever.
5) Tab back every 5-10 minutes to change tools and click different rocks.
6) Walk back to town more slowly.
7) Repeat.

Why do you mine?
When I asked this on IRC, here are the responses I got:
"It lets me reduce my MC once I've maxed mining."
- Now, the entire MC system is a much bigger and different discussion, and I don't want to field that here because it would be a distraction. So this isn't about that.

"It gives me resources I need to do my smithing."
- There's been disagreement for years about the role that Lumber-Mining-Smith-Carpenters have in Illarion, and mostly we put them in a bad light. But the reality is that players do this mostly out of necessity. How can they make somebody that is JUST a carpenter, if nobody wants to be a smith or lumberjack?

"It gives me a way to be doing something productive IG while I'm actually writing forum posts, chatting up the IRC or TeamSpeak, or doing Dev work."
- I hate to ever say bad things about people using these resources, or even making our game better, but is that really even playing the game at that point?

And, of course "Well... what else am I going to do when nobody else is IG?"
- This is important. Too often discussions about Illarion are phrased in the context of interaction with other players (especially when related to MC and grinding), but we need to accept that Illarion is becoming more and more a solo game. If you login and are the only player that speaks German or English in the entire world, It isn't an MMO, it's an RPG. And we need to make our content stand on its own to make that enjoyable.

Now, not everything is so bad. I also heard (Especially from people who actually play crafters regularly):
"I really love searching for new resources and exploring the world!"
-This is a great reality of a lot of our collection systems! Want to cut a certain wood? Better go find where it grows! Want to shear some sheep or get some furs? Better go find them! But where does this not apply? Mining. And would be awful if it did? Probably.

I also heard "My character sells his mining yields for a profit. Gemstones can fetch a pretty penny, and smiths love him/her!"
-Again, this is phenominal and needs to be the kind of experience we are pursuing. But something to notice here is that the actual experience of mining that is clicking on a rock and tabbing away, has little to do with this. This is the extrinsic result of the mining. It's a moment that's enjoyable because it's enjoyable to haggle with other characters. Not because it was enjoyable to stare at rocks.

And of course, "I love getting a group together and RPing as we work." -- Again, a REALLY good thing. But this falls into the same issue as I mentioned before about Illarion shifting away from the MMO experience and more to the RPG experience.

Really, the only repsonse I got about why mining itself is enjoyable was this: "It's one of the most relaxing parts of game play." Which can be taken in many ways, although we shouldn't ignore it as an important part of the experience. It's nice to have aspects of a game that don't need your fullest attention and effort.

So why do you mine? Are there parts of the experience that you really do love? Are there those that you don't?


If you play a miner as your character, I'd love to hear from you what makes the experience fun. After all, this is a game, so I assume you are doing it because you actually enjoy it.

If you don't mine and can't imagine doing so frequently, what exactly drives you off? The commute to and from the mines? The lack of engagement?


And ultimately, how can we make this specific experience more enjoyable while keeping true to the experience of Illarion?
It would be completely technically feasible to make things like mining or gemgrinding into minigames, (shoot, I could probably do that personally by April if it was desired) but that probably isn't be the best solution here. It would be pretty nonimmerisve if suddenly you were playing bejewled with coal, iron, rocks, and gems inside Illarion.
Although, I must admit, that does sound kinda fun.



TL;DR: When you are mining, why are you doing it and how can the experience be made more fun?

[CJK]

It has come to my attention that I was not clear enough in this massive wall of text. So let me clarify.

I am NOT saying we should slap minigames all over illarion. In fact, I'm saying anything we need to make the game more of a unified, engaging but still true to its core experience.

What I am asking is what you enjoy about some of our collection systems, but not others, and what experiences can be made better.


I'd also just like there to be less times when somebody is playing Illarion, but it isn't the active window. Would you do that with other games? Not as much, because they keep your attention somehow. We need to find that somehow.

[Achae Eanstray]

I understand you are trying to get some form of concrete proposal for collection of resources.. thanks for agreeing to move this here until it has been discussed.

I used to like to cut down trees with my char.. then plant new ones in their place. Almost all the time someone would come by to talk. Gathering with another while roleplaying was always fun. I think workbenches were first started to get a "group" work environment.. is gathering aimed toward this "group" effort also.. even if only two... is it convenient to find and close to activity? Possibly some questions to think about also.

[Mr.Oldie]

As a PO self-proclaimed "well known/famous" crafter/merchant my opinions are all positive about mining/ gathering of any kind.
Ive integrated the chore into RP by creating situations for other players to earn wages from my character by being a carrier. There were other situations where as a master miner ive challenged other miner characters in a race(small betting on the side like smaller version of our galmair race) making it fun.

Ofcourse the lul in the time where no other players are present to RP with has been alt tabbed. But I use that in a productive way for the game by doing RP related stuff like writing Doves, making posts etc etc. I often save things as draft or copy the new posts in note pads etc to be used later. I would then use this while RPing in a group where there is main conversation going on between other characters to RP that my character is just half listening to it and writing things on parchment. Even if this doesnt happen, i just wait for the next character who is coming to trade with mine to post on boards to create the feeling that my character is being busy and all-important.

These are just a few ways. By being creative you could do more.

On the matter of alt tabbing, the time mentioned in the first post is greatly exaggerated. The DEVs have created enough distractions to keep us from AFK-farming. There are slimes, stones ceasing to exist, hunger, tool breaking, finding of a large list of items. IF you have AFKd for 5 mins am sure your char only mined for about 2 mins maximum of that. you have lost the rest of the time. i have had to alt tab back to illa before even finishing a sentence properly in forum at times.

Time is another thing. For me, as a multitasker and one who values the time of being online i would rather do all the illarion related stuff together. it would be more difficult if i had to waste time posting in forum after i logout from the game. i would rather use that extra time to some more RP

Well thats it i guess.. Leave it be; i dont think gathering needs more changes.. unless we are getting more extra stuff outta it

[Mr.Oldie]

PS : if you want more fun/action during mining; try mining in glitering mine. (thats what its called right? the one near Inn; forgot... been away too long sigh)

[Mephistopheles]

Mining in glittercave now is no different from anywhere else -.-

The slimes that are supposed to spawn dont, and even then its only two, theres no danger there like before.

[Fooser]

1) I find it fun
2) Making money is awesome

[CJK]

Well, looks like the general sentiment is that more people than I'd always assumed like the system and any modifications to it would basically be wasted time, especially when we have much more important tasks on hand. Like magic and stuff.

Thanks for those that took the time to respond!

[maryday]

((Written and prompted at recorded time. Answer to topic. Basic design of a mini-game.)) DONE SO FAR.

Let me see...
Doing a stone/ore runners job may be a bit frustrating or boring to players with a low grade of altruism.
I`ve participated in the early stages of the first Galmair mine expansion this way. And i liked beeing a runner.
Because i had the choice (maaaany times) to deliver the full ammount to the miner, in the end, or "divert" a part to my pocket.
I think this experience might be also interesting to Newbies.
I do not specifically clarify this thought any further.

After that i even did some more mining on my own, just for stacking some pins and uncuts.
The first for my own industrious living and the latter for purposes of trade.


My second idea for this topic was about introducing containers to be located in mines (or better infront of each to define hotspots) with a sys of restrictions what can be stored inside.

Code: Select all

For example only: raw stone, stone, pebble, all ores, all uncut jewels, treasure maps, pickaxe, hammer, chisel (and maybe some more, yet NO food, maybe only 10 inventory slots?).
This idea centers on the thought that in medieval times basic masonry work was often done close to the place where ressource collection was performed.
Because, as all natural ressources, stone tends to have an "organic" structure and accidential loss/destruction of the to be prepared object happed on a regular base.
No need to drag ALL those stones down the hill if 1/5 of them will be wasted, down there.))

I would expect about 10hrs TOTAL, or less, of Dev-time here for writing and fixing.
A good use for those dark brown big chests here?




My first idea was about a mini-game i`d call "The flippin`lode".
The idea i had in mind was to make it less attractive to fully exploit every rock of a kind, one after the oher, watching, walking, clicking, watching.
The game would encourage actual "prospection and exploration", led by one or more experienced miners, while offering participation of any number of lesser experienced ones.

Code: Select all

The basic content of the "lode-system" would be to simulate density and appearance of specific ore types in a short termed, dynamical mechanic, by adding bonuses to surrounding rocks in the vicinity of a rock.

The flow of the game would be as follows:

-Upon entering the mine the miner sees just what he sees now: rocks of different kind.
-The miner approaches a rock ((rock no.1)).
-The miner uses the pickaxe upon the rock ((no.1)).
-After a time delay dependig on the skill of the miner the "lode-system" spawns a ((generation 1)) overlay ((to rock no.1)) showing a >random< state (-rich, -noteable...)
((=>gen.1 overlay offers no bonuses?!))
-Any rock can only have one overlay at a time. Depending upon the skill of the miner the overlay may be replaced by a "better" one, sooner or later.
With higher skill a smaller interval ((let`s say starting at 15 sec. with a skill below 20%, down to 5 sec. with a skill above 80%))
-The overlay does the time delay work and dumps successful mining actions to a short-term pool.
-The pool cummulates for some time ((let`s say 30 to 45 sec.)).
-The pool degrades over time.
-As long as the miner is working at rock no.1, the ressource output is not influenced by the "lode-system".
-Depending on the skill of the miner the "lode-pool" of rock no.1 will reach a "static var" ((after some time?)).
-The var would degrade if work was interrupted or if several "unsuccessful mining attempts" happen in chain ((=raw stone is mined)).

((I hope you got my point this far, as the real game is starting just now.))

-Depending on the pool of rock no.One up to three rocks in the vicinity ((higher skill=higher number, higher quality, bigger radius)), of the same kind, may spawn overlays ((generation 2)).
-((see "B" below!))
-Generation 2 ((or later)) overlays grant a bonus to ressource output OR possibility of successful mining attempt.
-Generation 2 overlay pools degrade slower then generation 1 ((let`s say 60 to 120 sec.)) as long no mining work is started at this rock.
-Successful mining attempts directed to a gen.2 overlay will slow down or even swith off the pool degradation of the concerning rock.
-Any generation later then 2 will have longer delays to spawn the next generation, faster degradation, lower bonus.
-Generation 2 overlays, or later, will always overwrite gen.1.
-Generation 3 overlays, or later, >may< overwrite "older" generations? ((see "D" below;))

((POSSIBILITY A:)) -With rising number of generation it becomes more and more difficult to expand the currently affected area  ((degrading number of affected rocks of the following generation, lower quality and radius))

((POSSIBILITY B:)) -Continuos work at the rock of a specific generation will allow to expand the area (number of affected rocks) and rise the quality of the following generation. ((Radius might stay static?))

((POSSIBILITY C:)) -Continuos work at the rock of a specific generation may dramatically increase an "early burnout" of the specific rock. ((The higher the number of the generation, the more likely?))

((POSSIBILITY D:)) -Starting with generation 2, any following generation will be more and more unlikely to overwrite an "older" one.

=>These POSSIBILITIES might be the part most difficult to implement, while making this game more and more demanding to the "leading" prospector.
These mechanics might also help to reduce the bonus for a >lonely worker<.


((POSSIBILITY E and F:)) -The higher the number of the generation, the more likely a negative side effect is to happen, when >continuously< mining.
-The higher the number of the generation, the more likely "special items" may be found (lamp, rope, map...)

I`ve tried to keep it simple.

Have fun.

((Dev-time to be expected: More then 24hrs. Fixing not counted.
Graphic design work needed: Three up to five overlays for each kind of ore (-abundant,-rich,-noteable,-normal,-weak,-barren) makes a max. of 6-8hrs of graphic work.))