Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

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Post by Karrock » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:08 pm

Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

Ssar'ney and perhaps some other chars don't accept lizardmen as mages. Sorry if I start another topic I have lost my comp. Returning to the topic. If magic is the power what old Gods use to create or change the world why no one just rp-ing their mages as actually priests of them except one newbie who discovered how simple to solve this problem. In all native politeism systems magic is the power that God/Goddess of gives to their followers. Before someone say that Illarion is not the real world (always this same poor argument) please look at the consequences of this inlogical argument. You want to rp mature fundamented on non logical system requirring logical behaviours. This is impossible.

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Post by Lia » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:31 pm

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

I do not know what kind of games you know, but in any MMORPG I've played, magic has not come from the gods.

Faith and magic have always been something else. Thus, priests and magicians were also different.

That some characters do not accept lizards as magicians is a pure IC thing.
Norodajs do not like and do not accept any magicians and are often very religious.

Just because the history says that the old gods created the world with magic does not mean that every character every Race and folk, knows or believes it. ;)

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Post by Karrock » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:34 pm

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

How this is even possible you play mage if you don't even know theory of the elements?

Also I imagine that one group of mages just use magic and second group can rp religous rituals to the Old Gods to gather power used during casting spells. Lizardmen can do this by their priests of Zelphia and save their rp atmosphere. This is why different models of magic as arcane, shamanism, or so can exist side by side.
Last edited by Karrock on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lia » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:40 pm

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

Karrock wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:34 pm
How this is even possible you play mage if you don't even know theory of the elements?
Lia wrote: Just because the history says that the old gods created the world with magic does not mean that every character knows or believes it. ;)

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Post by Karrock » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:53 pm

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

So I can play user of Malachin's power if I don't know that young God as my char? If not tell me why? I must point that politeisms were never religions of the book/s. Those were relligions of observations. Original folk doesn't send candidate to become shaman/sorcerer to any academy in a big city. People of those paths were always chosen by the Gods/Spirits.

Non God/s or Spirits magic is generated by monotheism that forbidden following any pagan Gods. Mostly in our times best known 'magic' for common people dont call any Gods/Spirits as real existing persons. New Age call those as mind-forms and often just reject this part calling their craft as operating with energy. These paths are against original understanding the world what politeists had. Politeism in oppositive to the monoteism doesn't know sacrum and profanum division. Whole world is under care of Gods or Spirits in their beliefs. According to this atheist-mage or atheism itself would be treated by them as inlogical.

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Post by Jupiter » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:42 am

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

Magic and devine powers have been treated seperately ever since in Illarion. The game follows a very classical approach of the fantasy genre. If you consider this illogical (whatever you mean with that), that's too bad. If you want to make a mage who claims to be a priest getting his power form a god, feel free to do so, but you can't epxpect others to believe that ingame and you have no reason to complain about that. At latest when we have a system for priests, this speration will also be supported by the game engine: Just like you cannot be a mage and an alchmeist, you won't be able to be a mage and a priest.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:59 pm

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

Per the Lore, the Five more or less gave birth to mana and therefore magic. That does not mean that mages are priests, simply that they have harnessed the powers. This philosophy varies per the cultures. Lizards who do accept mages view it as a gift from Zelphia. Dwarves view Irmorom as the giver of runic magic. Some orcs may believe it bestowed by Moshran. So could you play a devout mage who is practically priest/paladin like, sure. But you will not have access to the divine magic system when it goes in and will be limited to the arcane. If that doesn't bother you, go for it.

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Post by Karrock » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

I mean if lizardmen follow Zelphia their priests might be just mages of water element and by culture treat this arcane magis branch as priesthood. This is why there is no need to code division for priests and mage between old Gods because this might be treated by rp as same. No new system is needed. Like those who play shamans say that their power goes from spirit, common mages say this goes from mana streams and elves or lizardmen can treat this magic like part of their religion. RP is everything.

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Post by Jupiter » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:20 pm

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

Yes, and that is just not how it was roleplayed. Ever. Since nearly two decades the roleplay has this distinction, throwing that over would be nothing but a big mistake and a disrespect to all players who actually shaped that. Continuity in roleplay is one of Illarion's great advantages. Maybe you should try to look it at this way, and find enjoyment in the fact that generations of players have cultivated this way of roleplaying magic instead of trying to force your own views on to it. Priests are priests and mages are mages.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:10 pm

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

Incorrect, Karrock. Priests of the old gods are not mages and mages are not necessarily followers of the old gods.

If you want to play a mage character that calls himself a priest and claims his magic is a gift from the gods, go right ahead. But do not expect others to share said view ig.

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Post by Karrock » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:15 pm

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

So summary. Old Gods are magic only. New Gods are for priesthood. Priesthood for Old Gods is not planned to be coded. I see simply argument no because no.

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Post by Vern Kron » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:52 am

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

As far as the game is concerned: the old gods (for the most part) have bailed out. They are busy doing other stuff, and passed the responsibility of being gods onto the younger ones. Priestly powers from the old gods would be rare. The exception to that would be Tanora/Zelphia, but even then she is described to be distracted. That does not mean one cannot choose to follow one of the old gods, or be devoted to them probably. It just means there won't be the same benefits.

The relationship with the old gods and mages is somewhat questionable as well. We describe magic as coming from the old gods, but in the same sense that hamburgers come from the sun. While technically true, it is not because the sun has taken an active interest in the development of hamburgers. It is because sunlight allowed photosynthesis to occur to feed cows, and cows become hamburgers. We do not look to the sun to give us hamburgers.

The same may be said of mages. The mages take these elements that exist, simply because these gods have willed it so, and manipulate them. A fireball is not dependent upon a prayer to the gods. It is dependent upon manipulating the element of fire that Bragon has imbued in the world. No permission needed.

All this is to say: a mage can easily be disdainful of the old gods, and the younger ones. One can use a gift provided, while disdaining the giver. At the same point, a mage may decide to devote themselves to Tanora, and use only water spells, and claim that this came to be by a blessing from the goddess herself. People might disagree. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter.

Priests do not quite have that same luxury, but that isn't to say that their relationship to their god can't be 'complicated'.

To answer your question, it isn't "no, because no". It's no, because fundamentally these roles play out in different ways.

A priest will not have access to the same things a mage does. And abilities do not necessarily make statements about a person's position in the game.
A long while back, we had a number of characters playing as shamans who used magic. That does not disqualify their roleplay: a character can operate in a roleplay capacity as a priest, with 0 abilities.

The reason for 'no' in this situation is that the lore has been developed in a certain way, and the engine is going to back it.

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Post by Karrock » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:15 am

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

If you give example of hamburgers you should know, that politeism doesn't obtain such a divion to the earthly section and gods section. World in their opinion constructed in such way, that when bielever knows how to simply, easily make or get something then he doesn't interfere Gods. You treat magic as common craft, if this would be such easily then in Illa everyone should be mage. This requirment might be rated as need of intelligence or personal power (when we speak of arcane users). Elves might be divided on those who consider this in same way and those they consider this as being a chosen ones. For lizardmen I see water magic as obvious relligion. Using by them different magic paths or even following younger gods could be considered as heressy.

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Post by Vern Kron » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

If I understand you correctly:

It is your belief that Illarion's lore and background does not fit because magic must come from the gods, and the gods choose a select few to use magic, and therefore they are priests.

Present it with a different angle:

Magic is not an act of worship or interaction with the gods, whatsoever. It is taking the materials in the world (mana), and sculpting them into a person's own personal whims. The raw material exists, and characters can draw many conclusions as to why or where. Some will say it is a gift from the gods, some will say it exists simply because the gods exist, and some will say it is a corruption of the will of the gods. At the end of the day, mages are not following the gods in order to gain these powers. They take what exists in the universe that they have access to, because they have developed in such a way as to be able to. (You a correct, not every character in game currently can just pick up a magic wand and do magic. However, every character in the game has the ability to spend the money to become competent in the stats needed to do so.)

Priests are different. Priestly magic requires, and is wholly dependent upon, the relationship with their god. In theory, they cannot do anything special without the permission of their god. This is partially why priest magic has been mentioned of taking 'longer' to do, and why it does something different things than arcane magic.

Mages are not priests, because fundamentally the relationship between mages and the gods are different than between priests and the gods.

Priests are tied to their gods for power. Mages are tied to mana for power. Mana may come from the gods (or it may not), but a mage needs no permission from the gods to access it, and do with it what they please.

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Post by Karrock » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:20 am

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

Character can spend money to change attributes and become priest aswell. So this is bad argument. If magic always works without upper existance then also orcs can't have shamans. I consider that people have not considered this problem well, making magic as normal craft like in the example carpentry is. Because magic what is just the craft what needs using brains on higher levels is still only a craft. This style of thinking exists in New Age and not in any single politeistic or animistic religion. Such a division to magic or religion is easy only in games or new age. I think game like Illarion is should not take solutions from schemes what are directed to simple minds. Rpgs are mostly for killing monsters by heroes. New Age is for ternagers and those who are not interested in grow of their knowledge. I don't insist to model one system for all. Arcane mages don't have to lead priestly ceremonies. They can just believe they were chosen, thats all.

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Post by Jupiter » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:53 am

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

Karrock wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:20 am
I consider that people have not considered this problem well, making magic as normal craft like in the example carpentry is. Because magic what is just the craft what needs using brains on higher levels is still only a craft.
You really should reconsider how you express yourself, Karrock. Whenever people disagree with how you see the things, you are quick at bad moutning them ("people have not considered this problem well", "directed to simple minds"), and the geneal attitude that your posts' tone express in this topic is "Everyone is wrong and stupid who doesn't see it my way".
If you believe that magic is just like any other craft, well, okay, that's like your opinion, dude. There are many pepopel who view it differently. There is no offical fixed statement of the form "Magic is this and that and that", but just a few clear facts like magic and priests being distinct. There have been various ways of how exactly magic has to be interpreted. This allows people to come up with theories of their own, and I have seen very creative and smart people who have more than just misplaced arrogance to back it up coming up with great ideas.

Your original question has been answered. I don't think further discussion leads anywhere.

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Post by Djironnyma » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:57 am

Re: Old Gods - mages: are they priests?

Jupiter wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:53 am
Your original question has been answered. I don't think further discussion leads anywhere.
Yes, locked

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