Character Creation - Base Stats

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Post by Aristeaus » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:54 pm

Character Creation - Base Stats

It seems that only a select few know the strengths and weaknesses or most the base stats within game, ive read various other threads making this a fact.

A suggestion:- Perhaps the base stats of a character can be altered by players 1 - 2 times after creation. This will allow a new player to learn what he actually wants to do and get a feel for the game and give him an option to actually have the character he wishes without having to reroll.

Edit :- Feel free to move this to proposals. I fail

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:25 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

This might help, there is a "feature request" in Mantis http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... ts#p638953

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Post by Aristeaus » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:28 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

I dont have access to Mantis, if you mean there is already a suggestion within for this feature. Thank you.

And on a side note im suprised that a more comprehensive list of the skill's/stats and thier uses has not been published yet?

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:34 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

You can sign up for Mantis, anyone on the forum can. As far as lists of skills/stats etc. it may be best to wait for the VBU however there have been some threads related to it.

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... ts#p638883
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... ts#p631190

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Post by Aristeaus » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:43 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Thanks Achae

I will look into signing up. And the various threads dont help in practice due to the mixed answers. In one you have people stateing Essence to be Magic Resistance and another Willpower ( Just an example ) I imagine a more comprehensible list will be released with the VBU. It just seem's strange and frustrating that such a small issue can resolve in so much wasted time for many people and has yet been seen to.

And thanks again <3

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:49 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

A list of attributes and their effects shall be published after the VBU. At this moment, it is a waste of time to work on such a list for not all attribute influences are fully implemented for the VBU.

Such a list is not done in a minute but I agree, all those lists and opinions you can find hidden on the forum don't help. Within 11 years or so, a lot changed and the confusion is the consequences of this.

However, the original proposal is a typical "Feature A sucks so let's implement feature B to compensate - instead of fixing feature A once and for all!".

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Post by Aristeaus » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:52 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Estralis - Marry me

I would say the proposal is more of a solution to a different problem, not a compramise. How many new player know what they want to do, or what to expect when they first join the game? Veteran players make character for specific circumstances, but new players make a character they ' Think ' may be ok, and only through playing the game will they gain a deeper understanding.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:08 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

You're welcome @Aristeaus, Mantis is interesting to view.
Estralis Seborian wrote:A list of attributes and their effects shall be published after the VBU....
Very nice to know @Estralis, thanks... well worth a marriage proposal! :wink:

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Post by ThisGuy » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:46 am

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Aristeaus wrote:How many new player know what they want to do, or what to expect when they first join the game? Veteran players make character for specific circumstances, but new players make a character they ' Think ' may be ok, and only through playing the game will they gain a deeper understanding.
I've been playing for years and still don't know what half my attributes do...

I did know what I wanted to do when I started, which is why I set my skills the way I did, just to find out the stats I made really high didn't matter at all

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Post by David Turner » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

I've been doing some experimentation ingame. Mostly this has been done by looking at the effects of good/bad days and by listening to other people, but some of it is through other people's observations. Please correct me if I am wrong about anything, since I'm still trying to pull apart the quagmire that is the stat system. The hidden nature of the stats only seems to help the experienced players and creates an unnatural barrier and a major competitive disadvantage for new characters, so I believe that it would help everyone to know this straight out. Hopefully this will help. Hopefully other people will also add some stuff to help out the discussion.

Strength: Carying capacity (important for all characters, but especially crafters), Damage bonus (varies in effect by weapon; axes get the most bonus, daggers get the least, I don't know if ranged gets any at all)

Constitution: HP and Health Recovery (arguably the most important stat for fighters as the combination of these two can allow a character to stay in battle almost as indefinitely as their food supply will allow), can be increased by eating a good diet of healthy food.

Agility: Movement in terrain (modified by encumbrance once you are overloaded, the base numbers are in effect any time you go off of "perfect terrain")(deceptively important for fighters because it allows you to run from fights that you can't win, so you will need above average at least), Defensive skill bonus (dodge and parry both get a bonus from this skill, though dodge benefits more from this skill and parry (the "blocking" skill) benefits more from having the con to back it up), attack speed (most important for daggers and arrows, least important for axes)

Dexterity: Item building (the GOD stat for crafters, increases build success and may also include build speed and chance of exp gain), bonus on a weapon's to-hit (most important for ranged and daggers, least important for axes)

Perception: ability to see more about a character (in the "look closely" description), the "god stat" for druids under current rules (as it helps with finding the most valuable herbs and with some of their other abilities, though other stats are supposed to become important after an update after the VBU), ability to see in bad conditions, maximum range for ranged attacks (arrows and magic, specifically)

Intelligence: how long you can learn before hitting the cap, decreases the minimum skill needed to benefit from a particular activity and increases the maximum skill that can be gained from that activity, helps with reading, a common dump stat for players who know exactly what activities to do to increase their skills at what point.

Willpower: Penetration of MR, bonus to the "Magic Resistance" skill.

Essence: MP and magic recovery (can become an average-only stat for mages thanks to health potions)

Int, will, and ess: the "mage stats" required at a total of 30 to learn any magic, but suggested to be higher. (Without int you will learn less and more slowly, likely never progressing to more powerful spells; without will your spells will be less powerful than other character; and without essence you will only be able to throw a few spells and will be dependent on mana potions). Teaching magic: the highest rune, bona, requires a total stat of 50 to teach, others require numbers slightly lower and 35 has been reported to be the lower limit for teaching anything (but I'm not sure). Required levels can be bypassed with temporary bonuses such as from potions and gems.

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Post by Athian » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:25 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Big chunks of what you have here are completely wrong. Which is why we tend to shy away from confirming every inference. as this lead to bad advice for new players.

At the moment the fighting system is similar to the magic system in the fact that that a set of attributes plays a role in the overall effectiveness ; think of them like complex formula's. To example (this is not the actual formula, so don't be dumb and use it)

Attribute 1 + attribute2 (/2) + attribute3(x3) + attribute 4 (-4)= skill 1 effectiveness

After the VBU we're hoping for something more like:

Attribute 1 + attribute 2 = Skill 1 effectiveness

skill plays a large factor in combat and crafting, in some ways more so then attributes. For example my main character Athian despite having average physical attributes (which warriors consider low most the time) in attributes that pertain to fighting will beat the tar out of warriors with higher attributes and lesser skill to a certain point, though they will eventually surpass the average man attributes once they reach a certain degree of skill themselves. major differences lay in armor and weapons quality as well. An excellent piece of armor or tool greatly surpasses an average or good one.

I'll give some advice for you fighters but be warned it is subject to change (i wont tell everything for fear of getting chewed on by the Dev's)

Strength: Strength should be your primary attribute if you want to focus on concussion type weapons (axes are not concussion weapons they are slashing weapons like swords). Increases the amount which you can carry. A crafter should consider having some strength since you want to be able to carry a lot of materials. For you warriors I will say that concussion weapons are a lost art, but many warrior who have been 'strongest on the isle' at there times understood how damaging such weapons could be even in the hands of those with fairly average attributes.

Agility: Effects movement speed over terrain as said. its the primary attribute for both puncture weapons and slashing weapons (there secondary attribute is completely different however, so just having max agility might not make you awesome at both). Also the primary factor in your dodging skill.

Dexterity: Crafting quality items its the primary use for dexterity There little to no weapon bonus to-hit. Some weapons are simply much more accurate then others(every weapon has its own attributes of sorts). Dexterity plays no role as a primary attribute in combat but like all attributes fighting skills benefit from it overall.

Perception: Primarily effects distance weapons. Increases the effectiveness of your "examine closely", increases the detail your character can see on another player in the dark. has no effect on the maximum range of distance weapons AT ALL. All weapons ranges are set in the items (the bow or thrown weapon) and some types of ammo (the wind arrow). maybe plays a bigger role in parry then you might think (maybe :wink: ) who knows ^^

Intelligence: This is one that has been screwing fighters for ages now in an almost comical way. Intelligence play the primary role in magic 'damage' and it also plays a large role in the effectiveness of TACTIC'S. I for one have no warrior character with less then 9(average) int and have had great success with each of them. This attribute is one of the primary ones that fighters drop in order max out multiple attributes and they end up suffering for it. Also as stated effects the duration at which you can learn skills.

Willpower: basically as said but part of a formula like the rest. primarily effects the magic resistance area of the skills.

Essence: The mana version of constitution, effects maximum pool of mana and regeneration of mana primarily. only very foolish and unsuccessful mages will want average essence. In the beignnings of learning magic spell wiff's and partially suscessful casts drain large chunks of mana which will regenerate slowly with low essence, leaving a mage vulnerable while empty. and literally effects the number of times you can casts certain spells (based on your mana) in relative succession. Also has unforeseen benefits in the later part so your magedom ^^

Constitution: Like Intelligence, a massively underrated attribute for warriors. Effects maximum health, health regeneration in and out of combat and assists greatly in surviving and recovering from poison. Arguably this can be considered the most important attribute a warrior can have. While high con characters 'might' do less damage then ones geared to doing damage, they last longer in a fight and can deal out more punishment over time. like most games its the difference between a tanking character and a damage dealer. A warrior with extremely low Constitution will not be successful


The thing to remember is that at the moment, while the system is a bit hard to understand it promotes diversity in character builds more so then a simple system does. Using the larger formula means that there are more successful character builds then simply maxing out attributes 1, 2 and 3.

Fact: There is no BEST build. You will never have a character who can be perfect in every single skill and aspect of the game. There's no point in even trying ^^

The VBU will make this simpler but i hope will not remove this factor from the game. these examples aren't 1005 accurate of course as i don't want to suck all the mystery out of illarion, but i hope they will help alittle bit.

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Post by David Turner » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:37 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

I realize that a lot of what I said is wrong, but it is still somewhere to start that is a bit better than the in-game descriptions. Most of it shouldn't matter once the VBU comes through, but for now these speculations are still important (even if only to dis-confirm them so that things can be done better).

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Post by Athian » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:51 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Fact: There is no BEST build. You will never have a character who can be perfect in every single skill and aspect of the game. There's no point in even trying
I Think this needs to be stated again then. what we don't want is to this game into your standard MMO where a certain set of attributes are seen as your only option for sucesss. There are no such builds at the moment. Where you excel in one place you will lack in another, no matter how you do it.

I agree that it would be nice if more players were able to produce the type of character they want at the start but there are multiple ways of success even when it comes to the same goal. It can be rather difficult to say definitely that "attribute setting x" works better then "attribute setting Y" until you've played the game, raised your skills and had a run at the environmental aspects of illarion. You'd be very surprised at the different arrangement of attributes that can be considered to be very successful, they tend to vary greatly in some respects.

I hope my little spiel there will at least help a tad in respects to assisting people in being a bit closer to there ideal.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:11 am

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Even in Athian's description are some (minor) mistakes, however, the lion's share is totally correct. Now. After the VBU, as Athian pointed out, serveral things will change, such as the (weird) influence of intelligence on fighting and learning.

With a certain probability, you'll get a rather comprehensive list of what stat influences what activity. Not in detail, but in a general way: A miner needs high BLEH while a smith needs high BLUBB and one who wants to parry blows needs high BLAH.

Afterall, one promise I can give: Those who "maxed" their characters in a way to try to implement a "best build" for the current fighting system will be pretty much screwed. A strong fighter will remain a strong fighter, that's for sure, but the current "best build" for a fighter will be a "mediocre build" for future fighters. Or did you think that maxing INT will result in epic pwnage 4 eva :-P ?

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Post by Silo » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:35 am

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Figured I'd bring this back for a new question that comes to mind.

Will there be no way to edit atts on existing characters post-VBU? A one time "fix your char"? I think it's worth mentioning that many people created maxed or near-maxed characters with more of a character image in mind than numerical values describing abilities. People create characters relative to the system at hand--i.e., while it might make sense in real life for a fighter to have a high willpower, game mechanics made this a completely pointless attribute for a fighter to have. If the PO decided to put points in this attribute, they'd actually be making their character a less talented fighter by making them RP oriented. Rather than have a character that is solid RP but gets killed by any mid-level monster in a ctrl-click fight, the PO would instead boost combat stats so they'd be strong engine-wise and RP the more detailed "attributes" of their character.

I feel like giving POs a chance to correct this would be much appreciated. You can't blame people for stacking their characters when the system itself is flawed.

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Post by Athian » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:05 am

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

I don't mean to come down on the spiel here or anything but...

its been asked a few times already, the consensus from the staff was that everyone would be allowed to alter there character for the VBU to better match up with the changes that will be made to the system. It just had not been stated in this particular topic but in a few on the general boards.

On a side note:

While i do agree with you i feel you don't know quite as much as you think of the current system. A character with average/mixed attributes is fully capable of dealing with even some very high end monsters so long as she/he has the proper armor/weapons and skills.I have had several characters between 8 - max(18/19/20) in every physical attribute I can attest that you can still slay your demon skeletons, wraiths, beholders etc though you may take more damage doing so or require higher quality items and weapons(yes without magic too^^). These 'perfect designs' were never made to 'optimize PvE experiences' or 'improve RP' they were more specifically designed for a select group of players to have a large advantage over the majority of players that were less in the know. While it would be a nice dream to associate the need for these perfect builds to have some semblance to RP we must simply face the fact that this is not the case in 90% of scenarios.

People get sucked into builds and a good portion of the population is still completely clueless as to just how much room they have with attributes. The result has generally been mage's with no physical attributes and warriors with hardly any magical resistances, causing a hard counter scenario that has driven people crazy for years ^^ among other things that will go unnamed for now.

With the VBU being more open in knowledge we can hope that everyone will have a more even playing field and not feel the need to constantly optimize. I think that will be less stressful for everyone

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Post by Hew Keenaxe » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:24 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Don't let them fool you, stats must matter. I just got beat by a character that has only been on for maybe 3 months. Mine 3 years, I am a fighter with maxed, slashing,parry, dodge and tactics.
Stats must matter.

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Post by Athian » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:28 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

I can't say i feel bad for you :P in particular Hew. so you had your character maxed for three years or whatever, I don't see what that really has to do with anything. Trust me there are people who will beat you who aren't maxed for reasons that have more to do with then just your attributes. Perhaps its a lesson on not picking fights with everyone just because you have high skills. Nor does being maxed out for three years somehow stop other players from skill-ing up as well.

Of course your Attributes play a role, what is being said is that what you can do in a PvE environment with attributes has a lot more leeway then given credit for. Here we have an example of the kind of thing we'd want to tone down. This attribute based "PvP arms race" that so many players get sucked into. Rather then having a bunch of people who know (or think they know) trade character building secrets a simplified system will help overall so that players can get a bit closer to there desired character without all the guess work and speculation. Even if your character can't do something on his or her own, wouldn't that be a great reason to play together?

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Post by Hew Keenaxe » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:56 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Athian,
I am not surprised at all that you took my post as an opportunity to make a snide comment. But just to make it clear, I was not complaining about losing a fight. I rather enjoyed my time Rping with that other character. Hew fights, thats what he does, just as other characters of mine do other things. I don't expect him to always win, don't even want that. I was just saying that the proper placement of stats at character creation time is important. They do make a difference in regards to how well you will be able to perform whatever given trade. Because they are so important, they should be made clearer as to what they actually do.
Using the mentioned fight as an example, I was better armed, better armor and maxed skills. So the only differences could be, magic gems (something someone so new shouldn't of been able to get by then) or better stats. The stats matter.

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Post by Athian » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:44 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

you may consider it a counter snipe :wink:

I'm not trying to convince you of anything because there is no need to prove to you, I'm simply stating facts in this case. You've played three years and i've played eight, i also have quite a greater understanding of current illarion then most people. I can Guarantee that players can still be plenty capable without maxing out every single attribute pertaining to a system. If people choose not to believe it then that is certainly fine but there are more factors in play then just attributes at least when it comes to a melee against a monster or other player.
Don't let them fool you, stats must matter. I just got beat by a character that has only been on for maybe 3 months. Mine 3 years, I am a fighter with maxed, slashing,parry, dodge and tactics.
Stats must matter.
Anyone reading this would think you are complaining about losing a fight :| I'm not particularly sure who you are accusing us of trying to fool. I nor Estralis have given any deceptive answers pertaining to this post in the least. If anything I hope I've provided a better understand of there attributes with my big long post above. I urge you to actually read the full topic before using it as a hub with which to vent your displeasure. Losing isn't always fun but hey, you can't win all the time right?
Because they are so important, they should be made clearer as to what they actually do.
We discussed attributes at length in the posts above. We've also discussed the point that attributes will be made simpler and clearer in the VBU.

Using the mentioned fight as an example, I was better armed, better armor and maxed skills. So the only differences could be, magic gems (something someone so new shouldn't of been able to get by then) or better stats. The stats matter.
unless you stripped your opponent to check the quality of every item he carried you can't really be sure this is true. as with Attributes most armor and weapons go as unknowns. Players have made assumptions what is best by what other people use more often but this hardly makes it true. There are still people who believe that magical elven armor is the best armor chest piece in the game :lol: when the truth is it's not even remotely close. Experimenting and learning things like armor on your own has always been on of the fun aspects of the game to me and hopefully this won't change in the future. A hint for you in the future is that more then just your chest armor comes into play when dealing with a melee blow from a weapon.

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Post by Silo » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:19 am

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Athian wrote:I don't mean to come down on the spiel here or anything but...

its been asked a few times already, the consensus from the staff was that everyone would be allowed to alter there character for the VBU to better match up with the changes that will be made to the system. It just had not been stated in this particular topic but in a few on the general boards.

On a side note:

While i do agree with you i feel you don't know quite as much as you think of the current system. A character with average/mixed attributes is fully capable of dealing with even some very high end monsters so long as she/he has the proper armor/weapons and skills.I have had several characters between 8 - max(18/19/20) in every physical attribute I can attest that you can still slay your demon skeletons, wraiths, beholders etc though you may take more damage doing so or require higher quality items and weapons(yes without magic too^^). These 'perfect designs' were never made to 'optimize PvE experiences' or 'improve RP' they were more specifically designed for a select group of players to have a large advantage over the majority of players that were less in the know. While it would be a nice dream to associate the need for these perfect builds to have some semblance to RP we must simply face the fact that this is not the case in 90% of scenarios.

People get sucked into builds and a good portion of the population is still completely clueless as to just how much room they have with attributes. The result has generally been mage's with no physical attributes and warriors with hardly any magical resistances, causing a hard counter scenario that has driven people crazy for years ^^ among other things that will go unnamed for now.

With the VBU being more open in knowledge we can hope that everyone will have a more even playing field and not feel the need to constantly optimize. I think that will be less stressful for everyone
No spiel, I was honestly curious. Thank you for the answer. I do understand the current system, and I'm not a personal supporter of maxed characters (had a few, wasn't impressed). Glad to know I'm not alone.

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Post by Athian » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:53 am

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

No spiel, I was honestly curious. Thank you for the answer. I do understand the current system, and I'm not a personal supporter of maxed characters (had a few, wasn't impressed). Glad to know I'm not alone.
Heh sometimes i think even the GM's don't entirely understand the current system, i know i have yet to grasp every aspect of it :wink:. It's very well made but the relationships that attributes have toward skills seems like it was purposely designed to be ambiguous from the outside. You are welcome of course and I'm also quite happy to note there are a few other non-max attribute guys out there, more power to you my friend.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:24 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

To add something that might be common knowledge by now:

The upcoming skill system will take attributes into account to scale the learning speed. This means that the skill you gain for an action depends on a lead attribute that is typical for the said action. An example: A good herbalist needs good perception to identify herbs worth harvesting. He becomes better by harvesting herbs; the speed of learning, however, depends not just on the number of actions but also on the attribute perception.

This yields that with every build, you have skills you can train much faster than others while you fall behind in other skills. This means that you can determine the field in what your character can become good in a reasonable time; Illarion stays class free, but this way, you can shape your character a little more towards how you want to play like. Most probably, there'll be a list or even documentation in the client that describes what skill benefits from what attribute. Nitram might want to comment.

Also, last time I checked, there won't be the offer for a total reroll of attributes for every character upon release of the VBU. However, also last time I checked, a sophisticated method to change attributes by ingame methods (think of rituals with donations to the gods) was in preparation. vilarion might want to comment on this.

All in all: Currently, the use of attributes is rather complicated and totally undocumented. Both will change with release of the VBU. Keep in mind that every character with every set of attributes will have his strengths, there won't be dump stats without a use. A fighter, of course, will always benefit from strength, but dumped willpower might result in sudden death when facing a mage... or one day, a priest? or bard? So, assign attributes in any way you want, every character will his his limits ;-).

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Post by Vilarion » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:05 am

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Estralis Seborian wrote:However, also last time I checked, a sophisticated method to change attributes by ingame methods (think of rituals with donations to the gods) was in preparation. vilarion might want to comment on this.
This will be implemented to make builds less static, to drain money from the game and to take one task off the GMs who will have plenty to do anyway.

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Post by Athian » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:24 am

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Vilarion wrote:
Estralis Seborian wrote:However, also last time I checked, a sophisticated method to change attributes by ingame methods (think of rituals with donations to the gods) was in preparation. vilarion might want to comment on this.
This will be implemented to make builds less static, to drain money from the game and to take one task off the GMs who will have plenty to do anyway.
Sounds magnificent. Is there going to be any sort of cap on it, Like you can only move a certain amount of attribute points from one place to another? and how would this work? Can we has spoilers?

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Post by Vilarion » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:26 am

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

The current idea is, that you can change one point as often as you like, but with prices for changes exploding up to a cap like this e.g.:
  • 50c
  • 1s
  • 2s
  • 4s
  • 8s
  • 16s
  • 32s
  • 50s
  • and onwards 1g
Prices will of course be adjusted according to inflation. ;)

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Post by Pugnacious » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:30 am

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

I am still wondering about Willpower vs. Essence. I was told IG that trying to increase my magic resistance would only harm me. I would no longer be able to be healed by magic and yet it wouldn't help me against mages. Further more, by reading about the stats @Athian suggests that willpower is for magic resistance, yet I get this message when looking at my stats "You really have nothing to put against unnatural influences, even if you have the impression that there is something going on you don’t really like." This leads me to believe Essence is needed for magic resistance. If it actually exists. @Athian has also pointed out that the poisoning skill is ineffective. Must I wait for the VBU to have this answered? It has already been two years (well not sure about the time line. But two christmas has past and Santa hasn't delivered :) ) since I first started salivating over its release.

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Post by Athian » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:07 pm

Re: Character Creation - Base Stats

Common myth

Your character should be able to raise his/her magic resistance without any issue. If we consider that you're character is a non-mage then there really isn't much chance that your character should have magical resistance efficient enough to resist a mage's healing spells. I have a magic using character with quite high magic resistance and other mage's are able to heal me just fine(healing spells aren't effected by resistance in the way others are) so long as they aren't complete amateurs. So no, you won't ever have so much resistance that you will become un-healable.

That should que you in to the flip side of things. having low magical attributes + magic resistance is only so helpful. There is no such thing as full magical resistance for player mage's. This means even a mage at max magic resistance will take damage from certain spells cast by someone or something with a sufficent attributes/skill, that damage will just be greatly reduced. For a warrior with low magic based attributes its going to be the same as a mage with low fighter attributes trying to utilize parry, it'll work some of the time but most of the time you're going to take the full brunt of the damage. This is especially true with some of the mage monsters like the wraith, drow and spider. no warrior with even max resistance should bother these ones.

There was just once a group of lazy mages who did not want warrior to train resistance so they would never be a threat, the rumors persist from there. :wink:

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