Combat Questions

[Grokk]

How many brand-new characters can a fully trained (mostly/all yellows) warrior take on all at once (and win)? Also, how many average (greens) fighters could a fully trained warrior take on alone?

Obviously I don't expect exact numbers, but I'd like a rough idea of the maximum in each situation.

Actually while I'm at it, another question also:

Is it at all possible for a character with green melee fighting skills to ever beat a character with yellow melee fighting skills one-on-one?

[Athian]

ALOT

nuff said

and why would it be possible for a poor warrior to be a beat warrior without any sort of tactic?

maybe if poisoned or hit by magic you can beat said enemy. but a master warrior will never lose to a beginner or intermediate warrior unless there is some severely difference between the two. Generally the only major differences of that sort are armor/weapon differences and attributes differences, and those are only going to be within a margin (if you have 70% skill and your enemy have 90% skills he'll probably still beat you for example)

[Grokk]

Why have such a huge variance in the effects of skill levels? I thought that Illarion's player base frowned upon powergaming?

And surely numbers should count for something? This isn't a 1970's Bruce Lee film.

and why would it be possible for a poor warrior to be a beat warrior without any sort of tactic?

Luck? A bad/good day? If someone who is more skilled at something than someone else won every single time, there would be no point in them even competing.

[Taiah]

Luck? A bad/good day? If someone who is more skilled at something than someone else won every single time, there would be no point in them even competing.

You can compete for the RP which can be very exciting in itself, to increase your skills which dueling can do, or simply to see how well your skills are.

[Athian]

Why have such a huge variance in the effects of skill levels? I thought that Illarion's player base frowned upon powergaming?

And surely numbers should count for something? This isn't a 1970's Bruce Lee film.

and why would it be possible for a poor warrior to be a beat warrior without any sort of tactic?

Luck? A bad/good day? If someone who is more skilled at something than someone else won every single time, there would be no point in them even competing.

Sure it's not a 1970's bruce lee movie, but it sure isn't real life either. So don't expect the mechanics of the game to change to suit your particular way of thinking. That simply how it is for the moment, get used to it.

PGing isn't required to be a warrior. However it may be required to be one of the best warriors. There just is not much a way for a bunch of low end fighters to deal with maxed out warriors. remember its not a true combined effort rather several individuals attacking one enemy at once. So even if you have 6 people with 50 slashing vs one person with 100(max)dodge and parry there is no multiplication of ability on the side of the 6, there is simply a higher volume of attacks.

So in battle its not

5(players)x 50(skill level for each) vs 1+100(skill level in respective skills)

its more like

1(player)+50(skill) vs 1(player)+100(skill) per attack, per combatant

(hope this is understandable, makes sense in my head anyway)

In the end if one on one you could not damage this enemy even if you bring 4 more people your level they suffer from the same ineptitude you do, They simply are not strong enough. however if you bring a group of players whom can at least do some degree of harm (even if they lose one on one) to this player then yes you will beat him with more people.

Stratagies:

don't suck (you can train to some degree enough to do a bit of harm)
Poison (fabulous weapon)
Back attacks (put the stronger people at your enemies back)
Befriend a mage (dirty but effective)

[Triton]

How many brand-new characters can a fully trained (mostly/all yellows) warrior take on all at once (and win)?

WTF?

[Grokk]

So don't expect the mechanics of the game to change to suit your particular way of thinking.

Sorry, I certainly wasn't expecting anything like that. I just thought I'd bring it up since it could possibly fix some of the problems we seem to be having. New players wouldn't be completely useless and could actually compete from the get-go. It wouldn't be necessary to grind your skills up to a certain level to be competitive. Of course, there are going to be those who will still do so, but they would only gain a slight advantage over those who wish to spend their time RPing. Perhaps a few more new players would be encouraged to stick around a bit longer. Ordinary townsfolk could rush out to help defend their city. A group of them could work together and defeat an outlaw who resisted arrest. A trained warrior wouldn't be able to simply slaughter anything and everything that hadn't trained their skills to a specific level.

It just seems bizarre that a game so focussed on RP uses such an 'anti-RP' skill system. It rewards those who PG, makes it difficult for those who just wish to RP, and places significant restrictions on a character's story. There are thousands of games that let you grind up your skills with endless mouse clicks. And many of those games have better graphics, more players, more content, and run smoother. There are very, very few games that strictly enforce RP and have such a rich roleplaying community as Illarion's.


@ Triton: Sorry 'bout that, I was slightly intoxicated at the time of posting. It had seemed a well structured question in my head. But surely it wasn't so difficult to decipher as to require you to make a post announcing your confusion to everyone. No one else seemed to have such trouble

[Kranek]

As a warrior-PO i can say:
It would really suck if a bunch of new chars could run around and kill my char. It took me dozends of hours to bring him to his level and i dont want to see some newcomers running around, owning him when they gather up in gangs of 5-6.

Long long long time ago, a new guild was founded. THose guys came from another game and they told us that they would simply kick our a**es. With the gamemechanic you would like to see, a group of 20 people could own the whole island, even if they have the worst RP ever.

If ya want to win a fight, train, just like in RL....even 50 kids from an elementary school wouldnt be able to beat a trained fighter

[Llama]

In the new fighting system which will come out with the VBU (Very Big Update) - it will be possible for a person who is less skilled to beat one which is more skilled - provided that he uses weapons which are more effective against the person's armour.

Also, regarding your current question - attacks on the back do more damage. Parrying takes 'action points', so in my belief, if you have a large number of fast dagger-attackers against a slow mace-attacker, then I'd say that he'll be attacking very very little.

[Grokk]

As a warrior-PO i can say:
It would really suck if a bunch of new chars could run around and kill my char. It took me dozends of hours to bring him to his level and i dont want to see some newcomers running around, owning him when they gather up in gangs of 5-6.

Yeah, I thought that might be a problem for most players in your position and that's fair enough. They wouldn't necessarily own you, but doesn't it seem ridiculous that the average warrior can slaughter a group of twice this size, with no difficulty whatsoever.

Long long long time ago, a new guild was founded. THose guys came from another game and they told us that they would simply kick our a**es. With the gamemechanic you would like to see, a group of 20 people could own the whole island, even if they have the worst RP ever.

These people would have no trouble doing this with the current game mechanics, it would be easier in fact. At the moment they could come in, grind their skills right up and then there would be little to nothing that Gobaith's current armies could do about it. I doubt we could muster a force large enough and strong enough. If the ordinary townsfolk were able to actually hurt skilled warriors, we would probably have a large enough combined army/militia to dispel such a threat. And wouldn't a GM do something about such people anyway?

....even 50 kids from an elementary school wouldnt be able to beat a trained fighter

Haha that's true, but we aren't elementary kids, we are (mainly) adults raised in a land that is certainly no stranger to bloodshed.

And Hadrian, thank you for the info. Will be interesting to see how the damage/armour types work out.

[Silo]

Yeah, I thought that might be a problem for most players in your position and that's fair enough. They wouldn't necessarily own you, but doesn't it seem ridiculous that the average warrior can slaughter a group of twice this size, with no difficulty whatsoever.

First... We're not really talking average warrior. When someone maxes their stats, or comes close, they're essentially a "master" of their weapon. Eight stick wielding peasants vs. a blademaster?

And second... Battle of Thermopylae. Good example of uber ownage against... Think it was somewhere around 20x their amount of men. ^_^

[Thrym]

Yeah, I thought that might be a problem for most players in your position and that's fair enough. They wouldn't necessarily own you, but doesn't it seem ridiculous that the average warrior can slaughter a group of twice this size, with no difficulty whatsoever.

First... We're not really talking average warrior. When someone maxes their stats, or comes close, they're essentially a "master" of their weapon. Eight stick wielding peasants vs. a blademaster?

And second... Battle of Thermopylae. Good example of uber ownage against... Think it was somewhere around 20x their amount of men. ^_^

In r/l, blademaster does not beat 8 stick wielding peasants, but I guess something for the original poster to know is that Illarion is not real life. In Illa, blademaster means skill beyond reason. ^_^

Also, the battle of Thermopylae did not have the warriors surrounded by the enemy. It was the bottlenecking and great battle tactics (plus experience, of course) that allowed them to do so well. When they did get surrounded, they lost. But then again, this is Illa! It cannot really be compared to real life, as it is a fantasy universe (and a lovely one at that), so in Illa the 300 Spartans would've beaten the Persians even if they were all in a pit

[Silo]

Blademaster would without a doubt beat the peasants... Check your sources

And I'm talking only about that last stand at Thermopylae Sure, they all died... But the numbers, once added up, say that each killed waay more than 8 men.

[Vern Kron]

Well, at some point, the warrior would have to eat. If you have a stream line of newbies it might be possible.

[Grokk]

First... We're not really talking average warrior. When someone maxes their stats, or comes close, they're essentially a "master" of their weapon. Eight stick wielding peasants vs. a blademaster?

I assumed that the majority of fighters playing Illarion were "masters" of their weapon or at least strong enough to defeat a large number of untrained characters. So isn't the average warrior on Gobaith a blademaster (or close to it)? Please correct me if my assumption was way off, I'm just going by what I've seen and read.

What if the peasants were wielding axes, clubs and swords? Even in the world of fantasy, I cannot think of too many examples of a character who could survive when surrounded by eight people swinging hard/sharp objects at them.

Yes the Battle of Thermopylae is an example, but it is irrelevant. I never said that having lesser numbers always means defeat. In fact, I would want it to still be possible to defeat multiple enemies. Just not every single time. And not when you are vastly outnumbered. Also, like Thrym said, they did not fight all 8 at once.

but I guess something for the original poster to know is that Illarion is not real life. In Illa, blademaster means skill beyond reason. ^_^

Yeah I realise that Illarion is a fantasy world. I don't have a problem with the combat system not being realistic, I apologise for not being clear. It is more that I think my idea would make for much more interesting roleplay. Wouldn't you like to see peasants come out and attempt to defend their town against attackers, instead of hiding behind the walls while two tiny armies duke it out outside the gates? Wouldn't you like to see groups of citizens actually taking action when a criminal attacks or steals inside their city, instead of just standing there shouting at them? Wouldn't you like a group of lesser skilled characters to actually be a challenge for your blademaster, instead of roleplaying a god-like killing machine that slices through them all like butter?

[Thrym]

Blademaster would without a doubt beat the peasants... Check your sources
.

My sources are the Western martial arts re-creationists of this day, most notably being the organization ARMA (Association for Renaissance Martial Arts) and the instructors and splendid academic consultants thereof. And the manuals written by the middle-age/renaissance masters themselves (if you're interested in those, they shouldn't be too hard to find ). Believe it or not, there were no god-like master wielders that could repel 8 peasants armed with solid quarterstaves (which happen to be the "sticks" they would have carried). 1v8 is just not physically possible if the peasants put any effort into it. As soon as the first solid blow gets in it's probably all over for mister master.

BUT this is probably not the place for me to be trying to defend credibility. The simple thing is that none of this real-lifeishness matters because, as said before, this is not real life we're dealing with. ^_^ But have fun comparing the two, I guess!

[Alexander Knight]

Well i think i will answer the question sensibly...

Depending on the situations and weapons used (Dagger lowest block chance but lowest damage and mace is slow and easy to block but great damage) and depends on the stats you choose at the beginning and also the quality of the weapon

Lets put this into perspective... 2 guys exactly the same level etc etc but one has got an excellent brand new serinjah and elven steel and one has a rusty serinjah and crap armor... Who's going to win? The truth is that you are only as good as the blade you wield so save up buy leads of wicked weapons and own everyone

[CJK]

I assumed that the majority of fighters playing Illarion were "masters" of their weapon or at least strong enough to defeat a large number of untrained characters. So isn't the average warrior on Gobaith a blademaster (or close to it)? Please correct me if my assumption was way off, I'm just going by what I've seen and read.

Yes there are plenty of powerful warriors floating around.

However! many of the warriors you may think to be powerful really aren't. For example people think my char is a powerful rich warrior when in reality he has been nearly bankrupt his entire gobaith career and is a average if not sub-standard warrior. Also your views of "Master" are distorted because you are new to illarion and therefore almost certainly have low skill levels. I remember when I started i thought anybody that killed reds was a demi-god of sorts XD


An @Alex
It isn't exactly true that weapons and armor make the warrior, at least currently they dont. And of course you must remember that you might find silversteel to be amazing armor, whereas others might find chain mail or light elven to be better by light-years





PS. Grokk, did you get your name from a martian book? I remember that word from somewhere...

[Aldan Vian]

An @Alex
It isn't exactly true that weapons and armor make the warrior, at least currently they dont. And of course you must remember that you might find silversteel to be amazing armor, whereas others might find chain mail or light elven to be better by light-years

Its true, my char is known for beating people up with dull, rusty serinjahs, without armor

[Grokk]

Also your views of "Master" are distorted because you are new to illarion and therefore almost certainly have low skill levels.

Yeah, I thought that might be the case. I was just going by what I had read on the forums mainly. And seeing how a lot of the people playing Illarion have been around for quite a while, I assumed most had trained their skills up pretty high. Thanks for clearing that up though.

PS. Grokk, did you get your name from a martian book? I remember that word from somewhere...

Nah, I didn't. I've been using it for several years now. It's actually usually Grok, but that had already been taken in Illarion. Started out with it as a Minotaur on Shadowbane if I remember correctly. Needed a name, and that popped into my head.[/quote]

[Alexander Knight]

An @Alex
It isn't exactly true that weapons and armor make the warrior, at least currently they dont. And of course you must remember that you might find silversteel to be amazing armor, whereas others might find chain mail or light elven to be better by light-years

Well shodowplate, dwarven and drow are much better but too heavy

[Alexander Knight]

But Grokk it is true about the whole thinking people are strong but they are not.
Take Alex for example, he took you and squee on when squee had his shadowplate and magical serinjahs and came out without a scratch.. the truth is im just a little above average

[Grokk]

I'd forgotten about that, thanks Alex. That backs up what I've been saying all through this thread. Alexander is only a slightly above average warrior and was not at all harmed by two characters, both who had trained their combat skills at least a little and one with some decent equipment.

Do many new players continue playing Illarion after they have tried it out?

[wolfsword]

Some do, but sadly, as the average people online show, not many. :/
But, atleast there aren't loads and loads of characters on and only a small fraction of them know how to RP, or wish to learn how to.

[Grokk]

Yeah true, although I don't think this game is ever going to attract anyone other than RPers and those wishing to learn. There is a huge number of other games that have better game mechanics, better graphics and actually have a decent amount of players. Most people would choose one of those games over Illarion in a heartbeat. If a player enjoys old-time graphics, non-restricted PVP and a huge range of character skills, they are more than likely to choose a UO freeshard over Illarion every time.

The concept of Illarion is what sets it apart and attracts players. There are very, very few games that enforce RP. Roleplayers (and most likely, only roleplayers) will come here and they will stay, if the game is good enough.

[wolfsword]

Yeah, true. There are also MUD RPI's, where it's similarly enforced, but good ones with many people are few..