Mes Pen

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Elaralith
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Mes Pen

Post by Elaralith »

Greetings,
I would like to propose some new effects for the healing spell of mes(light) pen(spirit). I think that being the holy and spell of Light that mes pen is it should harm the undead instead of healing them as it currently does, as well as heal the living. Currently, it only serves to heal the living, but it only makes sense that such a spell of healing and Light should harm the undead as well. Such monsters as mummies are of the undead category and I think should be harmed by the spell mes pen. That's all, and new ideas to this one welcome.
Note: To add a unique twist to this, I propose that the holy spell mes pen be one of the spells that do perhaps the most damage to undead monsters.
-Elaralith
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Cain Freemont
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Post by Cain Freemont »

@Elaralith: Sincerely speaking, I do not find this proposal practical in the least, much less unique in any aspect. Making a healing spell damage the undead is the most cliche' aspect of any role-playing game and video game I have ever stumbled across. This is perhaps the most annoying cliche as well, as clearly a healing spell is meant for healing, not harming the undead. I can understand how a new spell, perhaps a "holy" spell would be capable of harming the undead with more effectiveness, but not something meant for healing.

>Cain
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Elaralith
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Post by Elaralith »

@Cain Use your brain and you will see the reason why in the fantasy world holy healing spells harm the undead. They are undead for a reason. Undead (if you don't know) defines the genre of creatures that have been raised from the dead and are literally the walking dead. A healing spell that heals the living heals the dead, but think about what happens when undead are healed. They should be dead by aren't so naturally healing them would return them to their proper state ( as healing spells tend to do ) which is as dead. That is why a healing spell such as mes pen should damage the undead...if you don't understand that I'm sorry, but I have tried my best.
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Cain Freemont
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Post by Cain Freemont »

I never asked you to explain anything. Okay, fine, healing hurts, whatever. Its still completely lacking in unique thought process. Maybe if you would "use your brain" you would realize that. But how did I do that, since I dont use my brain? I dont know... I'm just a stupid person, how did I possibly know that? hmm...
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Post by Kringin »

It is not a holy spell.
Note: To add a unique twist to this, I propose that the holy spell mes pen be one of the spells that do perhaps the most damage to undead monsters.
"unique" ? I think not. I have seen it way too many times, its barely even original.

I think its a lazy way to kill something. Besides the ancient egyptions predicted that their pharoah's will come back to life there fore if you really want that spell to cause harm then it should be a skeleton. or the guardian of hell or something.
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Post by Roke »

Okay, I personally think that it is not the most original idea and I think a new spell, like Cain said. Not only would this add a new spell, and rune combination that some people would not know of first. There could be wizards studying for a new spell in game by trying the combination of the runes.... Well, maybe.

@Elaralith
Cain and Kringrin did not insult you or your topic at all. They just gave their oppinoins in a way that only a few people would find insulting. In fact, I don't see Cain saying anything insulting until AFTER you called him stupid. This is another case of you not hearing out what other people have to say and once you do that they start picking little parts out of your posts which means that everyone gets angry at everyone....[/list]
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Elaralith
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Post by Elaralith »

@Roke It has been said that proposals based on what is already there in illarion are more likely to be put into action. Proposing a new "holy" spell would have a lesser chance of being accepted. Mes pen is a holy spell so I really don't see a need to implement another one just for the sake of having it damage undead.
I did not call Cain 'stupid'. I tried to explain it in a way that "few people would have found insulting".
And this is another case of trouble makers wishing to start "flame wars".
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paul laffing
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Post by paul laffing »

Everyone just stop posting, because you know you can not post anything in comparison to my brilliant ideas. :wink:

Okay, so anyway, a healing spell should have no effect on the undead, as they can not be healed. But it should have an effect on the living creatures, like demons and flies, because they are living. Its logical, and as a bonus, it makes sense. :D :wink:
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Cain Freemont
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Post by Cain Freemont »

Arent demons classified as undead as well? Since they come from the underworld or something? I could be wrong.. and if I am, correct me. But, I do see what you mean Paul. Clearly, flies and other living creatures would be affected.
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Elaralith
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Post by Elaralith »

Demons are not undead. They are living creatures from Hell.
Undead: Mummies, Zombies, Skeletons, anything raised by a necromancer from the dead.

I think that mes pen should heal all monsters as it currently does, but harm the undead because of the reasons stated above.
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paul laffing
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Post by paul laffing »

I think it should have no effect on the undead as they are UNDEAD, meaning living dead. It can not heal them, since they are dead, nor kill them, because that defeats the whole purpose of a HEALING SPELL. :?
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Post by Cain Freemont »

How can something from Hell be living in any way?
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Post by Serpardum »

Only evil clerics (in AD&D anyway) can cast a harm other spell. Good aligned clerics can't. So it doesn't make sense if mes pen is a healing spell.

If it is simply a magic spell, then it would help the undead, not hurt them, so again it doesn't make sense.

Good aligned clerics use a spell called "turn undead" to banish the undead.

Demons are not undead, they are creatures from another realm. Undead are things that were once alive but became undead, mummies, skeletons, vampires, etc... They are living an unnatural life.
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Elaralith
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Post by Elaralith »

@Paul Think about it: They are undead. Healing returns things to their natural state. In the case of living beings that means restoring their life. In the case of the undead it returns them to dead state(kills them) because that is their natural state.
@Cain How can something from Hell not be living? Hell is merely another dimension/plan of existence.
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Post by Cain Freemont »

Elaralith.. there was no need to repeat Serpardum's post... He's quite good at actually explaining things.
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Niniane
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Post by Niniane »

I believe that this is a difference of opinion on what the mes pen spell actually does and this is the cause of this entire argument. Elaralith apparently has a view that Mes Pen is a spell in which it raises ones life force while everyone else views it as healing of ones wounds.

If (as the majority of the participants in this thread feel) a wound or wounds are healed by the spell of Mes Pen then it makes sense that ALL monsters are healed by the spell and that it would hurt none.

As a counter claim to Elaralith's idea that it should harm the undead, I believe that the mages casting Mes Pen on the undead monsters are 'evil' and thus have found a way to twist the true meaning of the spell to their evil will (through roleplaying). They are in fact turning the powers of the runes to a darker path and this would heal the evil creatures and not harm them.

For the most part, a good person would not be healing a monster unless it was an accident. A monster should be able to be healed using a spell by those evil enough to wish to do so for their own evil schemes, if the Mes Pen spell no longer did this then a new one would have to be created for this purpose. It would be easier to create a spell that would harm all undead monsters than to create a new spell that heals undead monsters but has no effect on others, and to turn off the effect of healing of undead monsters by Mes Pen. Again, this is only if the effect of the Mes Pen spell is to heal ones life force and I do not believe this is so, making this point mute. Mes Pen to me is a spell that heals a wound. It heals a body to make it healthy again, even a dead body. For this reason Mes Pen should NOT hurt or harm any monster, living, dead, or undead.
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Elaralith
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Post by Elaralith »

@Cain I was not trying to repeat what Serpardum said. It's called having posts posted at simultaneous times.
@Serpardum In my view mes pen tends to appear to be a "turn undead" spell.

I tend to view mes pen a healing spell as a ability that falls under a cleric/priest's arsenal. I think that mages should not be able to heal; that should be an ability left to clerics. It is because I think mes pen is a clerical spell that heals that I also think that mes pen should harm all undead.
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Post by Brendan Mason »

As we're on the subject of the undead, will it be possible in future for, say Necromancers to summon up mummies, from guts, or summon up other things from creature remains. Perhaps the skill could be called "re-animate."

Now, about demons. In our little game, do they have souls?

If they are in fact, just from another dimension, then shouldn't they too have souls?
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Caranthir the great
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Post by Caranthir the great »

@Brendan
Good Idea.. In my opinion just..
A.) This 'summoning' should be very hard
B.) There should be a limit for the creatures that one person could control at one time. (Perhaps Int. would affect this?)
C.) There should be a possibility for the summoning to 'backfire' so that the creature would turn against its summoner
(Perhaps willpower could affect this? And the Willpower of the creature summoned, which would perhaps make mindless mummies safer to summon than a Demonskeleton)

@Demons
Now when I think about it, we do have a demon skeleton right?
So it might be that the demons actually live somekind of unnatural life.
(Like the Osbournes ;) )

@This topic
I don't really agree with Elaralith.
BUT if we'll ever get a priest spell 'Bless' ...
That could perhaps do something nasty to the undead don't you think?
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Post by Galdriel »

well, over all i dont like multipurpose spells all that much.
blessing does usually something good to the one beeing blessed
turn undead might do harm to undead... if those are not too strong ( a vampire might not or much less be influenced by this)
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Post by Vindigan »

about mes pen
A new spell could be mes pen qwan and it could be a greater healing spell or the life spell

I think that healing undead things should hurt them, because its like their opposite 'element' kinda thing. Like hot - cold.. good - bad..
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Post by Cuderon »

If one´s thinking that way on, the result would be that hurting/injuring spells would heal undeads!? That sounds strange to me and a lot magicians wouldn´t appreciate it.
I think magic is simillar to atomic power; you can use it for good things (power plants, cancer therapy) or not so good things (nuklear weapons). But you can´t use a nuke to gain electric power.

Just some thoughts.

Oh, I nearly forgot to say: Spells have no good or bad alignment, they only have function/effect.
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paul laffing
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Post by paul laffing »

Caranthir the great wrote:(Like the Osbournes ;) )
Maybe that could be the next creature in the update :wink:

Anyway, as Niniane said, no one is going to be healing a zombie unless they are evil. Then, you have a perfectly good reason for having them gain health.

If you tried to water a dead plant, what what the effect be? Not much. What i am saying is, using a healing spell on a zombie would have no effect on it because it is dead, thus it can not be healed.

It all depends on which way you want to look at it. :D
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Elaralith
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Post by Elaralith »

Healing restores things to their natural and healthy element. That is why healing living beings restores their life. Undead are creatures that should be dead but are because of magic alive. Healing undead reverses that, and returns them to their natural state as 'dead' thus killing and hurting them. I don't see the reason for all this 'confusion' about a healing spell like not being able to hurt undead.
Mes pen doesn't have to be a cleric/holy spell to hurt undead...it only makes sense that a healing spell should hurt undead.
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paul laffing
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Post by paul laffing »

I know there have been problems with dictionaries before, but here goes...
To restore to health or soundness; cure.
That is the definition of healing. Now can you restore something dead back to health? No. So healing would have no effect.
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Elaralith
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Post by Elaralith »

We are talking about undead right now. And yes you can cure something dead back to health. It's called resurrection. Therefore healing would have an effect. Thank you for your time.
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Niniane
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Post by Niniane »

@ Elaralith

If a healing spell only heals a wound that was caused then it would not harm anyone, undead included. It would heal their wounds on their 'bodies' and restore them to an unharmed state, alive, dead or undead.

If the healing spell heals their souls by giving them more life force or something along those lines then it would harm the undead by giving them life.

This is a matter of opinion and it seems that most people, programmers included view the healing spell as just that. A spell to heal and not to return a life force. In the future there may be spell that return ones life force and used by clerics or all mages, whoever the programmers decide and this could be used to harm the undead but it's not in the game now and Mes Pen should not (In my opinion) be used for this as it heals a wound and does not restore ones life force.

When an individual is harmed physically their shell or body loses its ability to encapsulate the eternal soul, thus allowing for the spirit to leave the body and for the body to whither and die. Being hit by a sword does not harm ones soul! Rather, it hurts the body and this is what Mes Pen heals, the body and not the soul. If you look at it this way you will see that healing a wound should not harm anyone, undead included. Another spell would be needed for this purpose (harming the undead through a means of spiritual healing). One to return the spirit to the undead or something along those lines.
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Elaralith
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Post by Elaralith »

@Niniane Mes is the rune for Light. Pen is the rune for Spirit. Together they form the spell Mes Pen that heals the life (spirit/soul) force of beings. When used on undead because healing returns things to their proper state undead are returned to their natural state of death. Returning something to death is harming, and that is why undead should be harmed by the spell Mes Pen.
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Niniane
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Post by Niniane »

@Elaralith

If this is the case then Mes Pen should not heal the wounded but only the dead. It should not restore health to a body that is injured if it is a spell affecting ones soul or spirit.

It DOES affect the body, as is blatantly obvious in the game when you are hit and wounded and healed by a friendly mage by the spell of Mes Pen. You cannot heal a cut by strengthening a spirit within a wounded body. Once the spirit is out of the body it may be forced back into the body, but the body would still have to be returned to a livable state and as stated previously, the mes pen spell would not do this if it were only to affect the spirit as you say it does. It would only affect the soul and not the mortal body if you wish to look at it in the way you have.

For this reason Mes Pen cannot be looked at as a spell of spiritual healing but as a spell of physical healing. It heals wounds, cuts, scrapes, internal wounds caused by poisonings and such. It heals a dead physical body to a point where the spirit that was no longer able to inhabit it can once again return. It is a spell of PHYSICAL healing and not SPIRITUAL. The descriptions of the runes may give you another idea, but all evidence is against those two words you provided. My statements are here and you can read them and attempt a rebuttal but I honestly do not see how you can argue with the obvious truth of the in-game matter. Thank you for reading.

I offer this as an argument to the names of the runes proving that they are of the spirit that you provided. They may be a poor translation from the desired German words, which they were originally made. Or, a more likely scenario is that they are meant to say that they require the mages knowledge of their own spirit and of their own good (light) to be able to cast a magical spell that would heal the physical pain of others. This is a reasonable explanation as to why they are named as they are, and allows them to continue to do as I say they do and heal the physical body and not the soul as they quite obviously do.
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Elaralith
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Post by Elaralith »

Spirit and body are intricately woven together. When one is affected the other is as well.
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