fustrated - working for trash

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Post by GolfLima » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:00 pm

fustrated - working for trash

my char tried to make an

perfect assassine armour

1) tailoring: 100
2) dexterity: 17
3) perfect brandnew needle

tried it 9x

--> 4* excellent
--> 4* very good
--> 1* good

material costs:
9* [ 20silver (thread) + 30 silver (leather) + 1 silver (fur) + 100 silver (silk) + 200 silver (pure earth)] = 9* 351 silver =3159 silver + 9 silver (repair cost of the needle)

selling:
9* 100 silver (for the armor)

finally:
==> 2268 Silver ( + some costs for food) for the trash
==> aproximately 30 min (time to produce the armor) for the trash

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Post by Jupiter » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:09 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

You consider excellent quality trash?

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

Jupiter wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:09 pm
You consider excellent quality trash?
+1

Perfect (end-)gear should be (/stay) something very rare which can be sold far more expensive. I do not see the point.

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Post by Brightrim » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:27 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

Jupiter wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:09 pm
You consider excellent quality trash?


It does seem to have become a thing that when characters buy gear from others, they want perfect or nothing.
Exceptions being new players with little coin that will take anything they can get.
Not sure if there is anything that can be done or changed to alter that attitude?



GolfLima wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:00 pm

1) tailoring: 100
2) dexterity: 17
3) perfect brandnew needle


I don't remember the specifics, but I do believe there are steps 4) and 5) you could take to increase your chances of crafting better quality items, namely:
Glyphed amulets/rings (I do not remember which specifically improve which areas of crafting, but at least one of them should have to do with the quality I believe)
Gemming your crafting tool, in this case your needle. If memory serves that will both decrease the time taken to craft something as well as increase the rates of good quality items being crafted.

If perfect level 100 gear could be made easily without those two steps, why would there be a need for them to exist to begin with? So those might be worth looking into.

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Post by GolfLima » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:20 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

Brightrim wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:27 pm

I don't remember the specifics, but I do believe there are steps 4) and 5) you could take to increase your chances of crafting better quality items, namely:
Glyphed amulets/rings (I do not remember which specifically improve which areas of crafting, but at least one of them should have to do with the quality I believe)
Gemming your crafting tool, in this case your needle. If memory serves that will both decrease the time taken to craft something as well as increase the rates of good quality items being crafted.

If perfect level 100 gear could be made easily without those two steps, why would there be a need for them to exist to begin with? So those might be worth looking into.

* if this mean you NEED to use magic things (( gems for the tool and / or glyph ring / amulett )) to make a "perfect thing" than it becomes totally senseless to play a crafter
* if i remember right there were some races [ Norodaj / Serinjah (?) ] with a difficult relation to magic


(( may be i check how many attampts my char need to make a perfect assassine armor of darkness ))

p.s.

6) potions (increase dexterity)
7) meals (cabbage soup / gulash / egg cream cake ...-> +dexterity)

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:45 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

So options like glyphs and gems open up for crafters after years of complaining that Crafters don't get any love...You can max a crafting skill in 1/3rd the time compared to a fighting skill, you can easily max a gathering craft and a craft far quicker than any other 'class' of skills, and the potential for money also far exceeds every other 'class' of skills

Please don't make it any easier to be a crafter

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Post by GolfLima » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:24 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

Charlotte-ate-wilbur wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:45 pm
So options like glyphs and gems open up for crafters after years of complaining that Crafters don't get any love...You can max a crafting skill in 1/3rd the time compared to a fighting skill, you can easily max a gathering craft and a craft far quicker than any other 'class' of skills, and the potential for money also far exceeds every other 'class' of skills

Please don't make it any easier to be a crafter
==> seems i make something wrong -> to maximize skill "tanning and weaving" takes a realy long time (is there any other way than sheepsheering?)
==> glyph and gems are magic
(( for 9* assassine armor of darkness you need 18*silk & 9* pure earth --> to gather them needs a long time or is very expensive ))


{{ the beginning text was only an expression of opinion --> there was no intention to initiate a change }}

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Post by Brightrim » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:31 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

GolfLima wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:20 pm

6) potions (increase dexterity)
7) meals (cabbage soup / gulash / egg cream cake ...-> +dexterity)


Last I checked, dex only determines the speed of learning a craft and nothing else in terms of craftsmanship. Maybe Jupiter or some other dev has an answer on whether that has changed, though. Or maybe the milestone where dex will be included in the math of determining the quality of crafted items is coming up soon?

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Post by Vern Kron » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 am

Re: fustrated - working for trash

Hey Golflima,

I can understand your frustration with the system in this regard. I don't want to have to add 'more' work to make my character do the things that he should be classically grand at. I made a few level 100 staves the other day in a request for a 'perfect' staff, and was getting between 'average-excellent'. To get perfection, I think it now requires gems, as after adding a set or two, I got a perfect staff.

Dexterity impacts the amount you learn when you craft, not the quality nor the time in which it takes it to be made.

I haven't yet experimented with the impact of glyph forging. I haven't seen a comprehensive list of effects or anything (not that this should exactly exist anyway).

While it is frustrating at times to feel as if the crafting "end" mark gets moved higher and further. there is some plus side to this: it gives you in game goals to strive for. There are a number of ways your character can gather gems, not the least of which is from interacting with players, as well as gathering.

However, there is an added benefit to this: getting super high class stuff is now a touch more difficult. That can be a mark of prestige that your character can carry, and wield, in whatever way you so choose.

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Post by Caswir » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:06 am

Re: fustrated - working for trash

What my characters end up doing is finding a good Alchemist, who can create crafter potions. These help greatly. Gemming the tool works and it is also inexpensive. Then I have no troubles getting perfect items within a few attempts with medium dex.

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Post by GolfLima » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:19 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

Vern Kron wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 am
Hey Golflima,

I can understand your frustration with the system in this regard. I don't want to have to add 'more' work to make my character do the things that he should be classically grand at. I made a few level 100 staves the other day in a request for a 'perfect' staff, and was getting between 'average-excellent'. To get perfection, I think it now requires gems, as after adding a set or two, I got a perfect staff.

Dexterity impacts the amount you learn when you craft, not the quality nor the time in which it takes it to be made.

I haven't yet experimented with the impact of glyph forging. I haven't seen a comprehensive list of effects or anything (not that this should exactly exist anyway).

While it is frustrating at times to feel as if the crafting "end" mark gets moved higher and further. there is some plus side to this: it gives you in game goals to strive for. There are a number of ways your character can gather gems, not the least of which is from interacting with players, as well as gathering.

However, there is an added benefit to this: getting super high class stuff is now a touch more difficult. That can be a mark of prestige that your character can carry, and wield, in whatever way you so choose.

* If this is right - char playing without magic ((like Norodajs)) become char 2nd class - sorry i dont like this direction of development
* and it looks like for me that "magical charakters" will get their "old position (Gobaith)" - they are the best and only one
* mag. gems in tools & glyph rings / amulets may increase the chance to make a "perfect thing" - but they should NOT be requirement


==> sounds for me like "magic" is the only way to get perfect things

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Post by Brightrim » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:46 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

GolfLima wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:19 pm

* mag. gems in tools & glyph rings / amulets may increase the chance to make a "perfect thing" - but they should NOT be requirement
[/size][/color]

==> sounds for me like "magic" is the only way to get perfect things
Magic gems and glyphs only increase the chance. They are not a requirement. You can make perfect quality items without these, the frequency of getting perfect items will just be less. So, if your luck is bad, you can go several items without getting a perfect one. As is the case with the gems and glyphs, just that with a higher chance, that is less likely to happen.

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:47 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

gems/glyphing is not required to craft perfect quality stuff, it just increases the chances of getting the item in perfect quality. Lets say (just to have an example) the usual chance of crafting a perfect-quality item is 10%, then the gems and the forged jewelery increases the chance to like.. lets say 20%. So it is possible to creat perfect stuff even without these things, but the chances are worse.


On a sidenote... no Norodaj-player _ever_ complained about not being able to use gems/magical weapons.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:59 am

Re: fustrated - working for trash

Code starts here:

https://github.com/Illarion-eV/Illarion ... s.lua#L612

Glyphs and gems only provide a new, additional bonus. Crafting did not become more difficult for crafters without glyphs and gems.

I am looking for a good and specific proposal as I am not too happy with current implementation.

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Post by Jupiter » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:28 am

Re: fustrated - working for trash

Illarion is quite easy (way too easy, imo). I still don't see the problem with perfect being rare... and as noted, magic is not required to achiev perfect stuff. It just makes it easier.

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Post by Brightrim » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:07 am

Re: fustrated - working for trash

Estralis Seborian wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:59 am
I am looking for a good and specific proposal as I am not too happy with current implementation.


Can you elaborate on what specifically you are unhappy with in regards to the current implementation?
Might be easier for us players to help come up with ideas that don't head in the wrong direction then.


Jupiter wrote: Illarion is quite easy (way too easy, imo). I still don't see the problem with perfect being rare... and as noted, magic is not required to achiev perfect stuff. It just makes it easier.



I agree. The game is too easy most of the time, and perfect being rare is as it should be I think.
It does remain a problem with players attitude that everything they buy, sell and use "has" to be perfect. Not sure what can alter such an attitude, though.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:44 am

Re: fustrated - working for trash

Sure I can give you starting points.

-No influence of Dexterity on final quality. This is a general topic, attribute influence on actions is not generally defined.
-Handling of level 100 items is exceptional as if you halfway mastered it. We need a more clever method.
-Gem and glyph effect are just added on top, making everything easier than it was supposed to be.
-Distribution caps at 9, so is not symmetrical. In other words, perfect quality is more likely than excellent despite not mathematically intended.
-Brute force final scatter instead of proper distribution.
-Too many lines and steps. Each factor should be in one simple line that generates the distribution.

Note high level items are endgame stuff while the code shall work for all levels. A level 0 crafter should have a fair chance for good items while the level 100 crafter shouldn't just produce perfect stuff all day long.

Generally, with current implementation, there is no challenge in producing best quality. Just grind to high levels and click.

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Post by GolfLima » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:46 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

1) If you can make "perfect things" without using "magical equipment" it is fine -> a lower chance is normal and fine for me
[[ may be a general change that there is NO normal way to make "perfect items" (also not with magical assistance) helps if we find a way how "perfect items" can integrate/occur ig]]
2) "perfect things" should be rare - my post was never intended to increase the amount of " perfect things" (i agree that there are to much "perfect things" ig)
3) that Dexterity has no influence is sad - may be we find a solution one day
4) to be fustrated doesnt mean - i hate how it is - was only a description of condition - may be i found not the best words, sorry

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Post by Cushing » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:32 pm

Re: fustrated - working for trash

What are the exact chances of making perfect things without magical equipment by the way?

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:28 am

Re: fustrated - working for trash

The chance depends on your skill, the tool and random. In the example of skill 100 and a perfect tool, the chance is around 11 % if I am not mistaken.

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