Kommunikation/Communication

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:54 am

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Image

I reeally want to point out the difference in change between the German and English accs. The German accs have remained relatively consistent with dips and spikes following the trends of the english accs, BUT! The english accs are far more chaotic, people leaving and going all the time. This is a german game, run mostly by people from Germany who most likely speak German. The two big German guilds are in an alliance ingame who actively hold the highest positions and are responsible for much of the overall game activity. However in lieu of this the most extreme changes throughout the history of Illarion has been in english accounts. Why? From my perspective and experience people will gravitate to people who they can understand via language. The germans don't hate the english speaking people that's not what I'm saying at all, but they may be driving them away. It seems there is an obviously clique, the real control in the game goes to friends of friends or Ev members or Germans. Stop this, like seriously it doesn't help the community. Also on the other side people have to try to stop being so demotivated by this and try and work with our German speaking roleplaying buddies to add more fun to the game, step up and jump in!

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Post by Karrock » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:34 am

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Lack of players is not a fault of ooc decisions made by players. This situation in these times is common for all games in this genre. In comparison to modern games Illarion looks very bad. Common player rate game by graphics first. For a newbie player even if he decides to download game after got a view to screenshots game looks empty despite if others are playing in the moment or not. Newbie player can't find a goals for himself after log in. Newbie doesn't understand relations between player and mechanics inside wider. Some newbies seem to be good roleplayers but after few times when they launch game they disappear and never return despite of all. For a newbie those who are the ones who are controlling towns is never a problem. They play too short period of time before they quit to get their interesting closer to this matter. Same with magical gems. They quit before they get understand their matter. And also I doubt that personal likes and dislikes between players is most big factor to play this game or not by those who played before and stopped.

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:52 am

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

People are buying indie retro games that I could've played on my gameboy, sometimes for $30+! Graphics are not the issue. Social Atmosphere is. We had players to make that atmosphere, now we do not. The obvious issue is keeping current players and providing more for them to enjoy. They'll tell their old friends or others and some older and newer players will come on their own.. and maybe stay.

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Post by Karrock » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:07 am

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

I must repeat. This is common problem for all games in this genre. Different games in this genre have different solutions, different playing style, etc. what shows that no existed strategies can lead to solve this problem. All are connected by this same idea. They are freeware what also doesn't make possibility to invest in the modern graphics. If this game is interested in attracting indie players who accept archaic graphics then also has to change approach and change the ingame content much.

EDIT: I'm also sure that biggest corporations of game-makers made analyzes does this genre can attract masses of players or not. Even if this would be possible in theory, might be not by praxis. Some of those biggest MMORPG have rp servers where almost no one follow rp-rules. Bigger number of players create need of more GMs who will guard do people follow the rules what creates high costs and also might be against laws. Those corporations after kicking out people who paid for playing could get massive waves of sueing. I'm sure that some MMORPGs in their foundation had in target table-roleplayers. Life has showed that common people who made accounts there are hopeless and MMORPG are called games what don't includes RP rules. Illarion of course is not on this stage to start analyzing what would happen with masses of new players. I'm sure that the best change what can be done now is changing ingame content much what doesn't need turning to a new style of graphics or such, but this way should be also considered.
Last edited by Karrock on Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:10 am

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

It is a self defeating cycle. If we sit here and focus on how no one is currently ig, we will not log in. If we do not log in, then others will look at the game and not want to log in because there is no one to play with.

You break this cycle by logging in.

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Post by Lia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:07 am

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

The problem is certainly not the two guilds. Especially in the Seaserpent Gilde German and English is present in equal proportion.

There are also English-speaking guilds, some of them specially founded to give English speakers a place and Rp. But not used, why not? It is certainly not the fault of the Germans.

One problem is the development of the own character. Usually someone only stand in his own way. But sometimes there are other things that the player of this character have no influence on.
And if you stand still for 2 or more years (reallife years) in the development, then at some point the desire to play goes by.


And last but not least, Dantagon has already mentioned it. if no one is on, no one will come.
If people see that someone is on, or even many are on, then certainly some will follow.
Dantagon Marescot wrote:
You break this cycle by logging in.

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:39 am

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

My question is why haven't any english speaking guilds that have popped up ever gotten up to the positions that German players hold? It could be they aren't motivated enough to get that far, if that's the case why? Or is it that they can't? If so why?

Why isn't it fishy that these positions are never held by English accs? Any and every excuse can be made but the fact remains that there is not a single english acc with the same highest positions (besides gms). If this is taken as an accusation then please analyze that, because this is pure observation of someone who's been playing for a year. My goal here is not to attack anyone but to point out why it looks like there's nothing going on. From the fact alone that German activity still follows the moves of english accs loosely it shows that when english accs are active so are the german acc. If you want english accs to stay, analyze behavior.

I'll be honest the shut in behavior, assuming, and accusing nature of many german characters is getting abrasive. Especially when people are actually trying to do things but are met with wild assumptions and accusations. Then when somebody says something somebody in control doesn't like they feel the need to try and bring petty things into the mix like leaving wood on the ground. If this isn't considered abrasive and unnecessary and the general consensus continues with "I'm going to play a douche, because I can and thats my rp" then thats okay, there's plenty of other games I can play too. :wink:

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Post by Lia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:58 am

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

In Runewick, nobody has ever really tried to get higher positions. Not really. (as far as I know) If you want high positions you have to do something for it, and do not expect anything to fall into your lap. Of course, that's not easy, but the current higher Peoples did not get easy in those days.

In Cadomyr, before Sarney became a Count, Annabeth was the high ranks. She was English speaker and leader of the desert fox.
Out of IC logic, Sarney went up after her.
And then there is Srrt also English, although he is a baron, so a rank lower than Sarney, but as a nobility still higher than the most People and current leader of the desert fox.

In Galmair, 90% of Chancellors speak English and have done so for a long time. Only sometimes there was one German speaker under them.

Apart from The Griffins of Dantagon, I also do not know a single English guild. Except for the Orc clan from Galmair, who is no longer active. the last of them was Krukk, German speaking. The leadership of the clan was / is English-speaking.

I do not quite understand your last point, which is probably due to my not so good English skills.
So I try to take it as I understand it, if I'm wrong then say it . :)

So, every character is like him and has nothing to do with the players behind. And by the way, there are enough English characters that are not much different. which also seem quite repugnant. :P

In real life you do not like everybody, and there are people you might find closed, disgusting or weird. Mostly because you do not understand why people are the way they are.
And also because you can not like everyone.

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:12 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Since there is no issue, I guess we can sit back and watch as players come back and everyone has fun right?

At what point will someone admit that Illarion's community is responsible for it's lack of content, and players.

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Post by Jupiter » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:19 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

This German/English debate has NEVER EVER led to anything (trust me, we had that over and over again). Only to hostility and senseless accusations, and really inappropriate cases of generalization ("the Germans", "the English speakers"). I really dislike this kind of discussion and stay away from this.

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Yes, I understand this, however it leads to this because there's an issue. If something keeps coming up, maybe it's a sign that there is an actual problem.

All I said was it's a german game, started by german speaking people, who obviously gravitate to people they understand. If you want this game not to die, then both english speaking and german speaking people need to try and come to terms with this and work together instead of acting like elitists. The people of both languages are just as guilty. If you want to keep avoiding it then nothing will get solved.

Honestly I feel many people take things way too seriously and become too involved in this fantasy. If people can't handle someone saying Germans speak German and gravitate towards Germans. Then that someone has a personal problem.

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Post by Karrock » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:40 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Lia wrote:In Runewick, nobody has ever really tried to get higher positions. Not really. (as far as I know) If you want high positions you have to do something for it, and do not expect anything to fall into your lap. Of course, that's not easy, but the current higher Peoples did not get easy in those days.
I don't know what are you speaking about. First to reach officially step (in the example by sending oficial letter to the academic council) for a rank character has to make steps which no one can fill all. Unofficialy I used methods to do this by a long time using ways more or less wise. And attempts to send such a letter before doing those required by regulations things in game would be waste of time.

1. Respect all honorable Gods and Goddesses.

As playing an albarian man I can't do this. This rule breaks "we play together not against others".

2. Lead academic lessons.

My char is not mage, nor regular priest. What might be those lessons? About farming or such real topics? Really I have to learn this in real world to look in the game as expert? Do you really think that any player will attend on such a lessons? I picked one subject and told some people about this in the game. Almost no one was interested and those who seemed to be never asked again when it will start. I think they said this might be interesting because of social norms to tell someone else something nice. Leading such a subjects based on real science would be completely boring for all.

3. Create events.
Without strong relationships with other characters (or even players) people won't come. In the other hand people seem to be bored of events, because they seen everything what can be done or invented so creating something fresh and new repeatable is much difficult.

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Post by Lia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

1. A certain amount of respect can be countered by things you do not like. An Albarian must learn that there are other views elsewhere.
And if he wants to get there a high rank, he must learn to respect that.

For example My Norodaj does not like magic or elves, but she has learned to bring some respect to elves and magicians.
And do not disrespect them just because they are magicians or elves.

tell me why should a town take a Charakter as High rank who dont have respect for the life and views of the Citiziens?


2. Anyone who can teach can also lead lessons. No matter if it's about magic, alchemy, belief, culture .... there is enough topic. You just need a little bit creative.


3. You do not necessarily need a strong relationship to find People for an event. Apart from the fact that one can build relationships.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:19 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

So here is how I view the "German Speakers" vs "English Speakers" problem. It isn't a case of us vs them. Maybe a bit of language becomes an issue, though many who speak German, are also rather decent English speakers. Really it is the English speakers who don't know German. Gravitating will happen, but I don't think that is the main issue.

It's timezones. The majority of German speakers are 6 hours ahead of me in EST. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of English speakers are American, though not all. We clearly have a few Brits and some ESL people in other countries. Illa tends to go dead around Midnight in Germany, as everyone logs off and goes to bed. It might pick back up around 7 pm here, sometimes, it is a bit closer to 9 pm, which means the vast majority North America has gotten home from work and are logging in.

This doesn't mean that the leaders of these towns are purposely trying to keep people out. I don't think Ssarney is trying to keep Dan from succeeding. I just never see him on a normal basis. It makes it difficult to reach across the time divide when you can never really see each other. Were I able to log in at 2 or 3 pm when say, the Sea Serpent meetings are taking place, and do so weekly, a lot more would be accomplished.

So how can we break this time divide? I have suggested to others in the past electing a diplomat as a go between. Cadomyr and Runewick are obviously European run towns, and Galmair American. Active reps who tend to have opposite times to the rest of the group could be beneficial. But it would also require good communication skills between them and probably quite a few PMs. It would also allow some of the characters on the other side of the world to make a positive impact on their town and the game world itself.

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:35 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Karrock wrote:Really I have to learn this in real world to look in the game as expert?
Uhm.. no? I doubt that anyone is a noble or a mage IRL (If so, I appologize). Why would you need to be an expert IRL? Rather _rp_ your char to be an expert? Nobody wants you or your char to be the perfectly accurate about the stuff they teach IC. Of course, a basic RL-knowledge might not be the worst for that...

About the language issue.. We will not solve that as long as there are people who are pissed about others not knowing their language and boycotting the other language even if they might have some training in it. But saying how germans are "overmighty" or "prefered" or something like that. Right now we have four "guilds", House DF, House SS, Bearers and Gryphos. Two of them are led by germans (who actually hold their events in english, to not exclude pure-english players) and the other two are english-only (Sorry Dan, I know you know some basics in german) players. Besides that everyone in game (apart from some people not talking english in a kind of boycott against... whatever?) at least tries to use english whenever an english char is around. So do not say it's a matter of languages or of nationalities.

We should more focus at those points uniting us than at those deviding us. We are all here (in the forum/game) in our free time to play the game. I am not asking for the reasons to play or the way people play, but the fact, that we all come together in the same edge of the internet. So why not actually playing together?

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Post by rakust dorenstkzul » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:43 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

I just want you guys to know that despite the language barrier and time barrier. I appreciate every single one of you.

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Post by GolfLima » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

rakust dorenstkzul wrote:I just want you guys to know that despite the language barrier and time barrier. I appreciate every single one of you.
Thanks // Danke

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:17 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

rakust dorenstkzul wrote:I just want you guys to know that despite the language barrier and time barrier. I appreciate every single one of you.
Dddddaaaawwwww <3
Katharina Ross wrote:Right now we have four "guilds", House DF, House SS, Bearers and Gryphos. Two of them are led by germans (who actually hold their events in english, to not exclude pure-english players) and the other two are english-only (Sorry Dan, I know you know some basics in german) players.
Basics, sure. But I would hardly call myself proficient enough to hold an event in German. Anything more than maybe a simple one on one conversation and I start shutting down. But this is also why I depended very heavily on Caine as Dan's second. Caine broke the language barrier I have, as well as the time barrier. There were days where we had multiple pms going back and forth in an attempt to keep things moving ig.

I don't think the divide is intentional, but it is definitely apparent. What can we do to lessen it and work together?

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:26 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Just to insert a possibly little known fact. Illarion was originally planned for three languages by some German college students. It became impossible to do due to the difficulty of naming three times (and possibly other difficulties also) so was reduced to two languages. Illarion was never made nor planned for simply one language alone.

Another little fact.. the "Don" of Galmair is English.. in a different time zone entirely. Galmair seems to make some things work not to say there isn't areas for improvement in all towns (which a lot I consider in game). I have characters in all towns and like each equally though they are quite different. I enjoy the difference.

Finally I agree fully with Jupiter and Dantagon... the issue is not language but time zones and to be honest.. isn't that what makes the game more exciting? It does to me! :D

rakust, thank you!




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Post by Karrock » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:51 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Lia wrote:1. A certain amount of respect can be countered by things you do not like. An Albarian must learn that there are other views elsewhere.
And if he wants to get there a high rank, he must learn to respect that.

For example My Norodaj does not like magic or elves, but she has learned to bring some respect to elves and magicians.
And do not disrespect them just because they are magicians or elves.

tell me why should a town take a Charakter as High rank who dont have respect for the life and views of the Citiziens?


2. Anyone who can teach can also lead lessons. No matter if it's about magic, alchemy, belief, culture .... there is enough topic. You just need a little bit creative.


3. You do not necessarily need a strong relationship to find People for an event. Apart from the fact that one can build relationships.
1.
"tell me why should a town take a Charakter as High rank who dont have respect for the life and views of the Citiziens" Tell me when my char was labeled as criminalist by a verdict of the court or when at all he was accused of doing any crime against "life and views of the citizens" what finished in the court. Or character needs to fullfil clear requirments or someone advances on higher ranks people by own will or likes. Do you have only legal evidences in the game that my character is against "life and views of the citizen"? No? Then don't metagaming.
Only ways to show that character respects other Gods is attending to the events directed to them or speaking about them only in superlatives. If I would choose for my character such a strategy also telling that my char is traditional albarian this would look like he is paranoid or idiot.
If you choose to drop your original concept how to play a character this doesn't mean that everyone should.

This is common that GMs/Devs create rules with telling same time: find a solution in game. This rule I wrote before is not even made by player characters who have those higher ranks. You can't kill in the example leader of the town or other important character played by GM. GMs/Devs/Some players say: Have you tried?
I don't but when some stronger characters tried to kill Krunk they noticed that Krunk has much more points in attributes than a normal character what makes him unkillable. There are many rules created in this style and different people nottice different rules against playing like they want. Some players who play a few weeks for a real year also telling: Have you tried? You haven't try enough...
This game is not directed to people who play it, but to imagined base of players who will appear "someday".
Most problem is that rules are not created to improve game. They are created because some people think they are cool. Result is that players have to adjust to the game, but the games doesn't adjust to the current active playerbase.

2.
I told that "other" topics (based on real science) are boring for players and character would need real knowledge, because always people I've noticed play this game like if it was a copy of real life. Character who is not prepared to answer questions doesn't look like expert. And also others than magic/priest studies based on Lore, like in the example History Studies can't be lead by anyone who wants. No common character is allowed to dream up events what have happend in the Lore.

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Post by Lia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:55 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

I do not know any character of high standing who has no respect for the life and views of the citizens.

I never claimed that your character was officially charged or even convicted.

What I meant by "against the life and the views of the citizens" was what you said. Albarian, If someone seems impossible to respect all gods (your statement) Why should he then respect ordinary citizens for their views and way of life?

For example, a woman who carries a sword and armor equivalent to a man. Or even lead a group in the fight.

It's okay if you want to play a stubborn Albarian, but then you should not expect that someone like that in a high rank.

I have not dropped any original concept. But my characters are allowed to evolve.
In addition, they do not want to become a high rang in a town.

2. Of course you should be able to answer questions if you want to teach on a topic.

Who takes a magician seriously on the subject of what a lesson makes, not even answer the questions of the students?


Of course, one should acquire a little knowledge. But does not mean that one absolutely must know everything. Especially as Illarion is also a fantasy game, which allows different views.

The magicians also handle the lore differently. There is no fixed Lore, or do you find on the homepage one to it?

And if you look more closely at the individual magicians, you would have noticed that everyone has his own view.

But I will not continue to discuss this with you, that is too exhausting for me in English.

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Post by Karrock » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:07 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Lia wrote:
It's okay if you want to play a stubborn Albarian, but then you should not expect that someone like that in a high rank.
I will just bring this sentence last for all in this topic. May someone enlighten me why person with higher rank has to fullfil rules even not made by player characters which doesn't allow any evil/bad/shady/unkind/or such person get a rank just because "because".

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:16 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

A good reminder is: http://illarion.org/illarion/us_rules.php#code
Due to the PM I received will open this but warn people before they post to read the rules. Non-constructive posts may be removed if not follow the code of conduct..

Thank you for your interest.

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Post by nathi » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:26 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

hej

thank you for reopen.

I see the so-called language problem as a pretext.
I also don't really believe in the time difference, because the time zones already existed when Illa had a lot more players.
There is a natural fluctuation, and too few new players come and stay in the game. What use is the effort in promotion if new players lose interest early on because it is now very complex to bring a char so far so that the RP is also fairly fun and one does not count as a noob forever. It used to be much easier to build a char. In the meantime, I'm only playing one char that I can keep up with to a certain extent. And to be honest I am tried about this, but I don't want to build up a new character with the current status of the requirements. Illarions is supposed to be a role-playing game, why develop the char (skill) for such high demands?

lg
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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:14 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

That is actually a really good point. It is hard to establish a character in the game and it is very easy for a newer character, especially that of a new player, to be over shadowed. Even as a returning player, it can be hard to find a niche in the community.

Are there any thoughts on what could be done to give actual roles to new characters to help them develop and be apart of the game?

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Post by Karrock » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:00 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Dantagon Marescot wrote:That is actually a really good point. It is hard to establish a character in the game and it is very easy for a newer character, especially that of a new player, to be over shadowed. Even as a returning player, it can be hard to find a niche in the community.

Are there any thoughts on what could be done to give actual roles to new characters to help them develop and be apart of the game?
This was rised so many times in different topics like ones made especially to rise this issue. I don't see reasons why discussion about this issue should be here.

The mechanical power of the char is sum of 3 elements: Attributes levels, magical gems and skills.

How to make a perfect built in my opinion should remain a mystery.

I have used "search" and I have found these topics about magical gems:
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=41455

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=40839

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=39996

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=40636

About skills I know that from some time getting them is easier.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:20 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Incorrect. I am not referring to making the perfect build or engine mechanics. I am talking faster immersion of characters into the world via rp. What can you do via rp to make a new character feel like they are actually involved in the world?

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Post by Karrock » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:43 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

Character who has got low skills, bad set attributes, low amount of magical gems is seldom treated serious when an important matter rises... This is not issue of RP I consider. To be honest I can't understand this topic, because in my opinion RP is not only standing together around depot, campfire, sitting in a tavern and sharing a stories... This is every situation when two characters meet.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

No, rp is not just standing around depots looming and waiting for others to show up. Illarion is about immersion. If you have to be high level, perfect attributes, lvl 9 gem set to be immersed in the world of Illarion, then you will not find it fun. Unless you enjoy PGing and Min/Maxing.

I'll throw out some ideas. Knights should take squires, pages, man at arms. They should teach and train them and involve them in what they do. Master mages should actively take students and teach them theory. Master crafters should take apprentices who maybe gather materials for them, but then are given the tools they need to help succeed. We should have active guard/militias who have monthly training sessions and if people are actually ig and around, people shouldn't be a recruit forever.

These things can only succeed if veteran players are active and involved. And if you are getting ig and looking to create fun for others, most likely, you will be having fun too.

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Post by Karrock » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:47 pm

Re: Kommunikation/Communication

People before tried this with different results. With no changes in mechanics this also fails in long term. In the example crafting: Why character must find a master to share with him materials when access to static tools is free and materials gave to other character can't be used by him to skill up faster? Also being someone's apprentice gives no bonus except "rp" detached of being useful. I tried as crafter find apprentices and many other crafters tried in past also. New character (especially new players) were never interested in this idea. Become apprentice is interesting only for very old players (because of advantages what only rp can give) when new players mostly rate this situation by what bonus (of mechanics) this can give them.

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