Off Topic

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Vern Kron
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Off Topic

Post by Vern Kron »

Do you think we could bring back the off topic threads?

The community is kind of quiet at this point, and fairly fractured. I have no real way of connecting with players who are outside of the standard times I am able to play, which brings the amount of players I interact with on a regular basis to a significantly smaller number. We may not see each other ig, but we could still have humor and connection, which is one of the appeals of Illarion as a game in the first place.

We are supposed to be encouraged to play with one another, and not against, yet how can we do that if we don't have any way to bond together as people? If there are no bonds, and no way to see the lives of the players of those around us, we aren't really any different and have no reason to play differently than the person who ambushes people on WoW.

The irc room is rarely active, and is more of a place that people go to sit quietly and awkwardly while doing things IG (hopefully, usually something else entirely). It is a literal waiting room of interaction. And when people don't get that interaction, they simply move on.

Off topic is a good way for us to share aspects of our lives and humor together.

I would like the staff to take a moment to consider the ramifications of hampering communication between players as well as the impact this division could cause on the future of the game. Most people who play this game have fond memories and friendships with a number of other players: it would be a shame to see Illarion not to promote those friendships, both locally and internationally.

As for poor forum behavior, it might be a better approach to deal with those cases individually rather than sweeping decisions impacting the whole of the player base. There is likely a significant reason why players who leave Illarion leave in groups, and that those individuals are often bound together in such a manner that they seek to recreate and rebuild similar experiences on other platforms. It is because that aspect of community is the true heart of Illarion, and it would be sad to see that shift.

I'll admit that the off-topic is a place of difficulty for players, and likely difficult for staff to moderate as well as to read from time to time. However, this is also the nature of relationships. They are not always pretty, not always shiny, not always lovey dovey. But if people did not care about this game, they would not post at all, and would not let it impact them in the way that it has.

Thank you for your time and consideration on the matter of continuing to safeguard the community.
Sincerely,
PO Artimer Fault
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rakust dorenstkzul
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Re: Off Topic

Post by rakust dorenstkzul »

If we get off topic back. i vow to stay out of it.

Scout's honour
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Achae Eanstray
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Achae Eanstray »

just putting this as a FYI

An example of Steam rules for off-topic:
English http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =143962136

German http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =215345349

(going against the rules and bans are discussed near the end)

Code: Select all

Do not do any of the following:

    Flame or insult other members
    Bypass any filters
    Abuse or encourage abuse of the Reputation, or Post Reporting Systems
    Post personally identifiable information (i.e. name, address, email, phone number, etc.)
    Bump threads
    Derail a thread's topic
    Post links to phishing sites
    Post spam (i.e. +1, 10char, rickrolls) or Re-post Closed, Modified, Deleted Content
    Repetitively post in the incorrect forum (example: trade requests belong in trading forum)
    Openly argue with a moderator


Do not post any topics/replies containing the following:

    Porn, inappropriate, offensive content, warez or leaked content, anything else not safe for work
    Any discussion of piracy will result in a permanent ban from the Steam Community
    Cheating, hacking, game exploits
    Threats of violence or harassment, even as a joke
    Post copyrighted material such as magazine scans
    Soliciting, begging, auctioning, selling, advertising, referrals, racism, discrimination
    Drugs, alcohol
    Religious, political, and other “prone to huge arguments” threads


Unwritten Rules
Do not post any of the following:

    Trolling, Griefing or otherwise problematic replies
    Flamebaiting, or intentionally disagreeing with others to cause an argument
    Naming and shaming of any kind
    POSTING IN ALL CAPS
    Exposing supposed cheaters (Report them through Steam profiles or in-game reports)
    Rage posting (Example: "This game sucks, I demand a refund")
    Being intentionally unhelpful, providing wrong information (Also considered Trolling)
    Posting of non-constructive things/reviews (Example: "DO NOT BUY! Crap.")
    Criticizing others for having an opinion
    Support Ticket or account related questions (Don't post personal account info)
    Do not ask to be unbanned from VAC, Game or another Game Hub
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Dantagon Marescot
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Dantagon Marescot »

First off, I believe that this post needs moved to the General Board since it has nothing to do with IG content and falls under the "fits nowhere else" clause.

As for Off Topic:

Look. It has been a month. The community as a whole has been put in the corner and grounded. We've had our time out. You've made your point.

Let's take those Steam Rules, revamp them to fit us. Understand that we are a tighter knit community than Steam. We are going to argue, we are going to disagree, but we are also here to have fun and connect. There needs to be some banter that we are not going to get over IRC, especially since not everyone gets on IRC.

If someone comes in and breaks those rules, deal with them. Warn them for their behavior. Take away privileges for a day, a week. Actually deal with the issues on a case by case basis. If there is in fighting between two players, take them aside and work it out as best as possible. We all get attached to our characters and sometimes a harm done onto them is a harm done onto us, so emotions rise and people will get angry with each other. Been there, done that, bought the blood stained t-shirt.

Sometimes we don't realize that it isn't intentional and that we were just playing characters and the players behind the screens are really chill. We all lose our temper. For as many times as we have seen page after page of argument on OT, there has been good times. People have worked out issues. People have connected and shared a laugh. It is already hard enough for some of us to connect due to time zones. Us N. and S. Americans can't easily connect to those in Europe and even more so in New Zealand and Australia. The OT board served as a way for us to see a message and respond hours later and share a laugh. We were able to connect as people.

Bring back Off Topic. Give it another go. And if someone becomes a troll, deal with them and deal with them quickly! If two people or more people are arguing, moderate it! Maybe, just maybe, issues can be resolved. The community will be better for it.

But hey, what do I know? :wink:

Yours in Service,
PO Dantagon
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Achae Eanstray
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Just a brief comment on where this proposal/whatever is.. The Proposal board is
Here you can make and discuss suggestions to improve the game.
Artimer's comment was related to the game...
I would like the staff to take a moment to consider the ramifications of hampering communication between players as well as the impact this division could cause on the future of the game. Most people who play this game have fond memories and friendships with a number of other players: it would be a shame to see Illarion not to promote those friendships, both locally and internationally.
I am assuming the game as a whole including the community... some seem to interpret in-game only.
However, let me know if all would like this moved. :)

Back to the subject, my opinion on the Steam rules is I think they can be adjusted for Illarion if deemed off-topic can be brought back.. I would also volunteer to assist if needed.
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Obsydien »

Personally I feel that it should be moved back, simply because this topic does not relate to improving the game content, but rather the community. Which brings up my next point. I personally avoid the proposal forum like the plague. Why? Because it honestly doesn't always interest me and I feel like a lot of great ideas get turned away or get a thumbs up and then nothing comes of fruition.

The only reason I'm responding to this is because I care about the people that make up this game and if we don't have the ability to spout off, vent, laugh, and share things with each other, then it becomes all of us against each other, unable to maintain friendships and bonds in a healthy, supervised place. Many of us have had to turn to other places in order to communicate with each other, which does not foster the sense of community that Illarion is so well known for.

I'm tired of being in time-out for the actions of few. Yes, we've made poor decisions, but punishments aren't supposed to last forever and I really just miss the camaraderie of the off-topic forum.
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Mephistopheles »

Let's face it, Mephy, Fooser, and Starling don't care anymore. We've moved on.

So you won't have anymore bad talk about the game or inappropriate responses.

Don't punish those who had nothing to do with it. Should have just had a temp forum ban to all those involved. Hell ban me, idc.

Cms who ignite and fan flame wars should not be cms btw. Regardless of e.v status or seniority.

Hope you get better illarion,
Sincereleh the lurking mephy
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Achae Eanstray
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Moved at the request of the thread starter... thanks for the discussion Artimer :)

Achae
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Vern Kron
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Vern Kron »

Thanks for moving it Achae.

I really hope that we can have some positive discussion on the matter and find out what the community as a whole desires in the direction of the game and our interactions! Please, speak up!
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Djironnyma »

Please consider the reasons why the off topic was closed. These are mostly:
  • Illarion have very liberate censorship policy. As long as no one is directly insulted, threatened or no law is broken we don't delete any post. This policy is something we believe in, we want give everyone as much freedom to speak as possible.
  • This policy and the lack of manpower make it very hard to avoid trolling, flamewars and similar in an area, where you talk "off-topic".
The off-topic hasn’t worked well and it wouldn’t work bringing it back.

Illarion have not the resources to install / train a team of moderators to follow the same way of moderation, so just increase the number of moderations and introduce defuse rules like “don’t flame” will mean that every moderator have to decide by his own opinion witch post are worth to stay and which are not worth. This will lead to unfair moderations and anger about it. We had quiet bad experience with a more strict moderation of the forums. Anyone remember the dot system?

I understand and support the want for a place to make Smalltalk with other players. But I don’t see the solution in an Offtopic-forum with a strict censorship. A community place with threads about special topics like sporty, music, art, politics etc. may be a better option as a place which is in general open for every topic / off topic.
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Please consider the reasons why the off topic was closed
I apologize for missing this discussion before the forum was closed... however, this is what I would like to say....

If there is a problem with the policy.. work on changing it..

I would like to point out that the off-topic has been around since I joined in 2006 and yes, I have seen some flaming but also a lot of people just discussing things of interest to them. I believe we can count on one hand the problem with the flamers in the recent past and like Mephy mentioned , banning would reduce any manpower needed. I don't believe anyone was wanting the dot program back and I also believe staff would be able to agree on a banning policy.


@Nitram...would there be a way to ban to a "read only" rather then allow to post for a certain amount of time or even permanently? Will this new forum that is being looked at provide that option? That would be very nice :)

I did a google search and couldn't find a single gaming forum without off-topic though I guess with enough will and searching there is probably one or two.. do we wish Illarion the exception?

To set threads of topics that can only be posted in i.e. sports, tv etc.. is really not allowing freedom of communication between the players. As Artimer mentioned, player interaction and the ability to establish friendships are important.

Has anyone thought that the most people leave this game when their friends and partners do? You have roleplayed your chars with some players for a long time.. become friends and when they leave for one reason or another.. so does the other player. They come back later but do they stay? If they can find a new set of friends.. if not they leave. The off-topic was an introductory way to make new friends..to encourage people to stay and get close to the players they are having so much fun being around.

How many of these older players have posted first in off-topic just to see if they are still welcomed? I have answered a few.

I know some of you can meet in real life, however there are a LOT that never meet except with this game. Removing off topic mainly hurts those that can't meet at all.

As an aside...not changing the subject, I saw a really cute picture the other day.. a cat and a dog and immediately thought I'd share here and guess what? Nowhere to share. A lot of people on off-topic were not flamers/trollers/whatever... but just regular people wishing to tell their friends a funny.. or how bad a day they had at work etc.
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Lia
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Lia »

Okay, I have not read everything but I still want to express my view.

Yes, an off topic is nice to get to know other players better, to put many beginnings for international friendships.

On the other hand, the majority of the players will sooner or later contact the players with whom they often make rp.

Nevertheless there was a very good reason why the off topic was removed.

It's degenerate. In the form the player have left their frustration there. While there, players and those who still sacrifice their free time to improve Illarion, to make sure that it runs at all, and to arrange for order and peace, were criticized in an improper way.

It is unfair to those then their efforts, and to spoil the players their fun by omitting his frustration in the off topic.

No one has anything against constructive criticism.
But against Hate and Flame.

Achae has expressed a point which is correct. There are actually no game forums which have no off topic.
But most of these forums also have more moderators or how they are called here Community Manager.

To give our CM more work, just because some people skip their frustration improperly , I find unfair.

But at the moment I see also no real solution for this problem which led to the deletion of the off topic.

I hope it can be unterstand what i mean, my englisch is not the best.
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Q-wert »

For the last month I haven't received pms with insulting pictures, no one posted to be sure of blatantly false intentions I have for my characters, no one was openly (and falsely) accused of breaking the rules on the forums and there also was no one trolling with weird claims of there to being some kind of secret exchange of ingame favours with sexual ones.
I noticed one call to shitpost everywhere in the name of free speech and one rather out of place complaint about being notified for acutally breaking the game rules, but they apparently were be quickly removed. Maybe due to them being Off Topic.

At the same time I only need to jump in the Teamspeak if I want to connect with the majority of the German crowd (there are people chatting there almost any reasonable time of the day and you don't even need a microphone to use it) and the IRC when I need immediate contact with anybody else. And in case of people barely online at my times, I use pms, the Guild Forums or outsidisch facebooky things.

Its also not as if the "Get to know the Players"- and "What are you listening to?"-threads are gone now. I am sure a "Hello! I'm back, whats new?"-thread would be right at home in the General Forum as well.


In short: I don't have problems to connect with the people that want to be reached. Things are also pleasantly quiet on the unfounded insults front. Personally I prefer things as they are now.
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Azuros »

I like the majority of the staff, but the idea that because they're volunteering their time for the Illarion project they should never have to see negative comments is ridiculous. To remove what was once quite an active board because some people were insulted is like setting the kitchen on fire because you saw a roach skittering across the counter. If you cannot handle criticism, you shouldn't volunteer for a staff position.

Moderating the off topic would not even be difficult. Problems just need to be addressed correctly, which is to say: delete the offending posts, give out temp bans to those who engage in a flame war, and permanent bans to those who repeatedly troll on the forum.
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Jupiter
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Jupiter »

If you cannot handle criticism, you shouldn't volunteer for a staff position.
This comment is quite out of place. It was not criticism, it were grave insults against players and staff members alike why the off topic forum was closed.

I wouldn't mind bringing the off-topic back. But I guess the ban hammer should be swung a bit more like it was ten years ago.
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Dantagon Marescot
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Dantagon Marescot »

Jupiter wrote:
I wouldn't mind bringing the off-topic back. But I guess the ban hammer should be swung a bit more like it was ten years ago.
I agree. Had issues been dealt with before it got out of hand, the removal of OT would have been unnecessary. At the very least the removal of offending posts and a 3 strike rule before a ban, with some kind of an explanation as to why a post was removed should be included.
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Feraiden »

Jupiter wrote:
If you cannot handle criticism, you shouldn't volunteer for a staff position.
This comment is quite out of place. It was not criticism, it were grave insults against players and staff members alike why the off topic forum was closed.
Perhaps not so out of place, a lot of those issues resulted from an unnecessary and really out of line response of two staff members to what ultimately was an innocuous conversation.
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Q-wert »

Feraiden wrote:
Jupiter wrote:
If you cannot handle criticism, you shouldn't volunteer for a staff position.
This comment is quite out of place. It was not criticism, it were grave insults against players and staff members alike why the off topic forum was closed.
Perhaps not so out of place, a lot of those issues resulted from an unnecessary and really out of line response of two staff members to what ultimately was an innocuous conversation.
Then please enlighten me how starting a flame war and insulting players and staff members not even present at mentioned conversation is an 'in place' reaction to what happened there.
Send me a pm or catch me in the Teamspeak if you like.
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Athlon
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Athlon »

Ich muss dazu sagen , nachdem ich mich mühsam durch den Googleübersetzer gequält habe .

Es ist deutlich angenehmer und zeitsparender geworden, seit es Off Topic nicht mehr gibt ,
im Forum zu lesen .
Die letzten paar Wochen bevor es geschlossen wurde , waren furchtbar und Schade um die Zeit .

Ebenso wie das wiederaufleben lassen wollen und die Verhandlung dazu hier .
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Vern Kron
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Vern Kron »

If I am understanding the statements against opening the off topic:

Moderating it would be difficult because over current liberal policy involving posts.

People are offensive when posting on the board, particularly to certain individuals.

I want us to realize for a moment that the rules and issues being discussed are in a very real sense, imaginary. There is realistically nothing stopping me from at this very moment posting openly harmful material, literally anywhere on the forums. If I wanted to, I could just as easily send radically inappropriate content through the pm service.

Moderators can only react, in the current situation, as well as attempt to mitigate and direct conversations in a helpful pattern. But at the end of the day, if I wanted to blast someone on the forums the only difference between doing in the off topic thread vs the general thread is that one will seem like a legitimate concern, and the other while just be hurtful.

Here is the reality of the situation: the act of closing the off topic coincided with actions that happened behind the scenes (just based on posting patterns).

If a person is misusing the forums, regardless of where it occurs, there should be a reaction. It doesn't matter if it is off topic or not, it is a rule violation. If dantagon starts sending me dirty private messages, then dantagon shouldn't be allowed to use that part of the forum, or possibly use it at all.

As it currently stands on the front of "staffing the moderator pool", that is legitimately work that has to be done. It has to. Eventually, one of the cm's will want to be done. Or maybe they will get sick. It's dark and sad but it's also true. There needs to be active and ongoing efforts to train up the next (staff, gm, cm, etc.) the other option is that illarion will slowly lose important and critical pieces and simply cease to function. But I suppose that is a problem for different thread.

Basically: the cm's have the ability as it stands to react to poor behavior on the forums and if they don't, they should. It is pretty clear that many people allowed the situation to get out of hand, and took part in the problem. Things have cooled down. If people start behaving poorly again, address them.

And for that matter, going along side what ssarney has said: if an individual is being directly harassed, or feels uncomfortable, express that through the appropriate channels. I can't speak for the cm's or the staff, but it seems pretty clear that illarion doesn't tolerate such behavior and it needs to be handled.
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Feraiden
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Feraiden »

Q-wert wrote: Then please enlighten me how starting a flame war and insulting players and staff members not even present at mentioned conversation is an 'in place' reaction to what happened there.
Send me a pm or catch me in the Teamspeak if you like.
Not sure what you're referencing, whatever happened to you may have involved different people and issues.
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Evie
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Evie »

My biggest problem with the off topic thread was not comments made about developers though there was tons and most of it false. But the player to player abuse that kept building and feeding. It was not the environment that would make any new player want to join. It was surprising the people joining into the fray but after you read so much toxic stuff sometimes you spew. Note 1: its been rather nice not reading it all, note 2: yes i have had things i wanted to post too since it has been gone. Decision: Undecided.
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Dantagon Marescot
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Dantagon Marescot »

Vern Kron wrote: If a person is misusing the forums, regardless of where it occurs, there should be a reaction. It doesn't matter if it is off topic or not, it is a rule violation. If dantagon starts sending me dirty private messages, then dantagon shouldn't be allowed to use that part of the forum, or possibly use it at all.
Except I am smart and will just send dirty messages to you on fb messenger instead. :twisted:
Vern Kron wrote:As it currently stands on the front of "staffing the moderator pool", that is legitimately work that has to be done. It has to. Eventually, one of the cm's will want to be done. Or maybe they will get sick. It's dark and sad but it's also true. There needs to be active and ongoing efforts to train up the next (staff, gm, cm, etc.) the other option is that illarion will slowly lose important and critical pieces and simply cease to function. But I suppose that is a problem for different thread.
Even in a volunteer community, burnout is a very real thing. We experience this in the non-profit organization I am part of, which is why we try to have a 2-3 year cycle of being a group officer. Right now I am a deputy officer in my local group, and will around August, if not by the end of the year, take over as a full officer, (with the guy I am replacing becoming my "drop dead deputy" in case I well, drop dead). A year from that I will have probably look for a deputy to spend a year training and then pass the torch too. At the same time, finding someone to take over is hard. Last time I held a (different) officer position it took 3-4 years before I even found someone to pawn off the role to and was by that point burnt out.

This is a real life example, but I find it to be valid even in an online community such as this. Holding a role with responsibility eventually burns someone out and/or they just stop caring. I realize in a lot of small groups with very few people willing to volunteer to be staff and be responsible, quite often people will take a step to the left and fill a different role for a time being. Sometimes, staff will have to fill multiple roles (ex. Devs as unofficial GMs for quest purposes, but not disciplinary or GM's working as CMs). There is nothing wrong with this so long as it is well communicated within the staff and people are cool with it. My point being, we have plenty of capable and innovative people within our community. We have people with the potential to make good GMs, and CMs, and Devs who may be interested in trying their hand in such roles, but are not sure how. Heck, I came back this past Fall wanting to build and create, but didn't know where to start or who to ask.

Perhaps it is time to look at taking deputies for some of these positions. People who might be good at moderating or running quests with little or no experience, but have the potential to do so. This was if something does come up and something does happen, we are not left with a gaping hole in the community that staff are then scrambling to fill. This is especially important in the groups that manage the people of Illarion. Though those of us working in the background creating content should be watching for creative talent as well. Stuff happens in RL beyond the computer screen, and we should be ready for when that may occur.
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Obsydien »

To whom it may concern, I'm willing to step up as a CM again, should the need arise. I know you guys are stretched thin and I only wish to offer a helping hand. I think it would go a long way to help the staff as well as the community, and could potentially lead to the reopening of Off-Topic. With extra eyes, more can be done to ensure that things don't get out of hand. I'm welcome to discuss this with someone.
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Achae Eanstray
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Achae Eanstray »

I'd like to insert a quick question.. why are we assuming it is the CM's slow/tired/not doing their job/falling down on what needs to be done? Could it possibly be policy? Could it be best if a group are given the nod and judgement accepted?
Moderating it would be difficult because over current liberal policy involving posts.
As I said, if banning those trolls and ones that flame.. and yes ones that send nasty PM's to others there isn't much moderation involved is there?

Perhaps a less liberal policy would be more advantageous....

I am not of the opinion that help is needed in CM or GM department (who also polices the forum by the way) so much as a good set of rules we can follow with staff backing/agreeing, and there would be no question from any about "why" :)

As Artimer said.. there could be trolling in any forum and not just off topic.
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Caswir »

I would like if it was brought back. Seems silly to just delete it. It was a good place to vent, and people take it too personal, when its just a game folks.

(I mean, Illarion is life. Hail Moshran)
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rakust dorenstkzul
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Re: Off Topic

Post by rakust dorenstkzul »

I honestly miss having a place to post my tounge in cheek anti ssar'ney propaganda
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Matron
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Re: Off Topic

Post by Matron »

Same with my Artimer-stalking. It just got deleted from the other thread.

Just ban folks who can't behave, why keep them in the forums anyway.
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Re: Off Topic

Post by S'rrt »

Matron wrote:Just ban folks who can't behave, why keep them in the forums anyway.
Especially repeat offenders over several months/years.

If that can't be done then do not bring off-topic back, please.
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Re: Off Topic

Post by maryday »

((EDIT: Post No.674))
"I`d suggest to forget the whole OFF-Topic thingy.
Let`s be normal.
Let`s shut up.
Let`s perish.
Welcome to the age of post-pluralism."

~14.03.2017; 13:14; maryday~
Last edited by maryday on Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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