Hew

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

Moderator: Gamemasters

Post Reply
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Hew

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Just speaking as the PO of Hew, I can say this. Banning a character for eternity does nothing to advance the game.
Yes he is now out of your town, but if like me, not out of your IG life.
It just makes him more desperate. More likely to hunt, more likely to kill, more likely to search out any reason to be part of the game.
As an outlaw, you get no gems( key to advancing in this game), no tools to do anything but kill, and limited interaction with other players.
The back door I have used, needs to be for every town. There needs to be a way any character has access to the rest of the players.
Only, and I repeat only , by this, have I had one moment to try Hew's case again. Without being able to enter, thus having access to other players, it could never happen. And over two years(RL) one the outside, it never did.
Maybe the three town idea is good, maybe. I still think more conflict between towns needs to happen. But if it is the way forward, blanket bans can not happen.
If you want players to play, they need a playground.
My two coppers.

Hew Keenaxe
User avatar
Karrock
Posts: 515
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:11 pm

Re: Hew

Post by Karrock »

Hew Keenaxe wrote: Maybe the three town idea is good, maybe. I still think more conflict between towns needs to happen. But if it is the way forward, blanket bans can not happen.
If you want players to play, they need a playground.
This is not system issue (or problem). Game just lacks conflicting chars. It is lack in RP, not in mechanics-system in my opinion. Everyone except three chars from Bob's group are on the same side. Of course small conficts arise, but this is normal in every society. But you can't force players to play more conflicting.
User avatar
Juliana D'cheyne
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:14 am
Contact:

Re: Hew

Post by Juliana D'cheyne »

Perhaps it depends how you play your outlaw, there is a smart way to play that gets you gems and armor also (hiring out is one). Having been an outlaw since even before the VBU this outlaw has learned the ins and outs of how to get things she wants. She has even been allowed into Cadomyr despite her non-friendly attitude. Another time she bribed someone to sell some gems in Cadomyr.

There is a way to be an outlaw without the advantages of towns, I don't have an armor full of gems but a few..no weapon full of gems, but have some. Managing not to get banned (yet) from a town there is plans and preparation for a "just in case" also. All this was before tools were in the wild also. Outlaws need to plan and not be what you consider your typical.

The best outlaw I ever saw was a druid in the old game... my character learned he had poisoned an entire village and would do it again yet most thought he was an upstanding citizen. :)

Outlaws play different ways but as a player you don't get your character into a corner unless planned, your character may have friends in towns that can assist if they do get banned as an example. Your character should know how to deal with their environment. On Gobaith it was one way.. in the VBU it is something different i.e. my character turned down a lot of coins and gems on a contract to kill the Don. :wink: In game reason? Not ready to get banned from Galmair and wasn't offered enough...yet.
User avatar
Q-wert
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 10:13 am
Contact:

Re: Hew

Post by Q-wert »

PO Hew is touching some interesting topics here. I'll be answering the more boring, personal stuff. But "Is there a way to integrate conflict-happy characters that can't die into the overall game and roleplay?" maybe is a question worth asking. One, that I see no viable solution that does not result in redoing half of the npcs and settlement maps.

Rearding Hew:
I'd like to note there to be a certain noble lizard who openly stated to "not be opposed to the idea of letting Hew back in" the last time he spoke with Hew.

While I did some experimentation in the beginning of Ssar'neys career, the reactions to assaults and robbery*** are now something along the following lines:
  • Someone attacking citizens: Order them to be slain on sight.
    That someone continuing to harass people: Actively send out hunting parties.
    That someone repeatedly walking into town during absence of defenders or several harassed citizens requesting a ban: Ban.
    That someone offering some way ensuring they won't do any of the above: Lift the counteractions above for symbolic tribute to the faction and compensation for the victims.
I think them to be fairly reasonable. Heresy is a wholly different matter, but isn't involved in Hews case.

I'm no particular fan of permanent bans themselves, but with villain characters blatantly using offline times of defenders to their advantage (something I first encountered back in the prime of Greenbriar pre-VBU, but also something that has not died out since then) I ask for them to be put in place if no other option is available (or people ask for it). Once a character went so far that that the reaction was a ban from the settlement I am cautious but not blocking if progress for lifting a ban is made.
I haven't received a single pm from you regarding the matter, nor has Hew brought forth any substantial offer. What 'did' happen was Hew coming forth to negotiate him not being hunted any more, which more or less came to a conclusion satisfactory for both sides.
Hew Keenaxe wrote:Only, and I repeat only , by this, have I had one moment to try Hew's case again.
Is a blatant lie in regards of Cadomyr, I'd like to point out.

On another note, one of the reasons why people might not just shrug and lift the ban would be the following: At the moment there is a notable lack of animosity between the settlements**** for several reasons, constant threats from outside (be it gm-quests or the kings**) and gms de-escalating any conflict that has sprung up between the factions thus far, to name two. Hew as he is (or was in the last three years or so), is a bomb waiting to explode. Just letting that bomb in, without the ability to throw it at an enemy, is something you can expect people to be somewhat reluctant with.

*Although it aparrently does in Galmair. See: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 88&t=41096
**I know, the kings claimed to intend leaving Galmair be. Their actions spoke differently.
***Those that are one-sidedly reported to the authorities, at least. Robbers with good cover will probably get away a couple of times.
****The settlements not being at each others throat all the time is not necessarily a bad thing.
User avatar
Dantagon Marescot
Posts: 1948
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:38 am
Location: Illarion Public Library

Re: Hew

Post by Dantagon Marescot »

Being an outlaw shouldn't necessarily be desirable, though the game wouldn't be as fun without them. Here is the thing though, if you are gonna play the bad guy, you have to realize there are consequences. You have to expect that you will get banned from town. You'll get attacked on sight and have people come after you. Just like if you play the good guy, you have to expect that the bad guys will come after you. It is all part of the dissonance of the game.

Honestly I see the same old theme. Ban bad guy from town. Bad guy swears he has changed. Naive good guy admits bad guy back into town. Bad guy is good guy for a year, then turns bad again. Bad guy gets banned from town . . .

There is no reason Hew can't be a curmudgeonly old dwarf and not get banned from town for it. Though maybe we need a better outlaw group centered around the Hemp Necktie inn that plays together. Causes some issues for the towns, but not all out wars. I know the Inn isn't as good as a town, but honestly if you aren't gonna pay taxes, you can't have all the toys. Though, why the Inn doesn't have a kitchen or at least a smoke oven is beyond me. No wonder Borgate doesn't get any business any more.
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Re: Hew

Post by Mephistopheles »

It's just a shame that people think outlaws need more consequences like I said before.

Outlaws have consequences from the player chars and gm chars and even other outlaw or "bad" char they may cross. These are consequences for actual interaction, whether well played nor not. What I'm finding frustrating is that some actual players think that other players should be consequenced in such a mechanical manner (at least we can work out of the mines) that makes the game hardly as fun. Handicaps suck and I never wished them on anyone, especially when you never know how roleplay went down and who might deserve some poetic justice.

Take for instance agendas could be political, resulting in someone defamed and lied about so another ambitious person can push forward, or say a mercenary gets set up for a crime so somebody didn't have to pay. From the outsider looking in we see person is convicted or accused of a crime, bad person grr. But to say that person needs mechanical punishment?

Wtf kind of attitude is that in a game like Illarion? It's all play with, not against etc etc.

It's time people starting playing with.
User avatar
Lia
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:12 pm

Re: Hew

Post by Lia »

Maybe look on the other side too.

It makes not fun to be get killed often by outlaws / bad guys .

Think what will happens if we have no mechanical punishment...
User avatar
Dantagon Marescot
Posts: 1948
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:38 am
Location: Illarion Public Library

Re: Hew

Post by Dantagon Marescot »

Mephistopheles wrote:Outlaws have consequences from the player chars and gm chars and even other outlaw or "bad" char they may cross. These are consequences for actual interaction, whether well played nor not. What I'm finding frustrating is that some actual players think that other players should be consequenced in such a mechanical manner (at least we can work out of the mines) that makes the game hardly as fun. Handicaps suck and I never wished them on anyone, especially when you never know how roleplay went down and who might deserve some poetic justice.
I think the mechanical banning is in play because there used to be an issue in the old client where if a character got banned for doing bad things, it wasn't actually enforce it as consequence. The character could still waltz right into town. I can think of many drama filled flamefest posts on the forums that involved some powerful bad guy character who was banned from town, would look at the online list, see that the good guys were not online, and waltz in to cause trouble.

So if the mechanical bans were lifted, and a "bad" character were banned from the town, but pretty much ignored that and decided to walk in (past the guards no less) and start causing trouble when three people are online, none of them able to defend themselves . . . How would you like to see that ban enforced when there is no one on character wise to enforce it? What is your solution to this problem?
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Re: Hew

Post by Mephistopheles »

I know thats the reason for banning, bans will not be taken from the game. However Bob wasn't banned from Cadomyr for about two months while outlawed. Let me ask.. was there ever an issue of Bob waltzing into Cadomyr while the strong chars were away? No.. there wasn't. Bans would be fine if A) Archers didn't abuse them, and B) If the current design of the game regarding sandboxing and immersion as well as how static tools and magic gems is altered to at least be slightly fair. You know dens of thieves and cultists exist in fantasy games, dens with stuff these unsavory folk need just like townies need, sure they live in filth with maybe not as easy access to as many resources.. but.. think about it.

My frustration lies in that because a char does one questionable thing they're lumped into this crap category of guys just dumped on. Good, bad, or pissed of a char has their own reasons to do things.
User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Re: Hew

Post by GolfLima »

all i read here is:

people plainig AGAINST each other

but people should play together
- a fight dont need to end with 1 side visiting Cherga
- a conflict dont need to end in bans

:arrow: why should i log in under such conditions?
User avatar
Lia
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:12 pm

Re: Hew

Post by Lia »

that is the point.

How often did we found a Char on the cross after meet a Outlaw?
Really often.

To often.

One example. Sometime one of my Char meet Dreadhard. He attack my Char, and i let my Char run behind the guards, because i fear one of my char will send again to Cherga.
that is the reason after to much time meet the cross. ;) there is no really trust more.

And all the time if the "Good" people meet the outlaws it end in fights and meetings with the Cross.

Thats why i think the most People would like the mechanical banns

All the Time i play Rollplay, i learn one think. Only with rp we can more things to then with technic.

You can let your Chars fight only with rp. Dont forget would net a problem if you lose.
( it only need that both side can speak good the same Language ^^)

And you train your Creative Side. ;)
User avatar
Jupiter
Developer
Posts: 3477
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 11:23 am

Re: Hew

Post by Jupiter »

There is a plan for monster guards. It will give banned characters the chance to enter the town, if they are sneaky/smart/strong enough.
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Re: Hew

Post by Mephistopheles »

A british gentleman is teaching me patience.

I'm slowly learning.
User avatar
Falyame
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:41 pm
Location: Auenland

Re: Hew

Post by Falyame »

I need so much time to write something -.-

First: Outlaw =/= automatically "bad guy"

Second: Thats why I would really welcome some RP-fights. Why does it always need to end at the cross? Why does it always need to end with a win and lose situation and not something "undecided"? Im sure, there were situations when the bad guy only wanted to do his things but was interrupted by a good guy he accidentally and undesired met...so what could be the best option for the bad guy?. Im a really supporter for RP-fights instead of right-clicking on your opponent and wait who dies first. And thats maybe why all the bad-good-confrontations ends in a fight because the one side want to avoid another RP-situation. Thats easy and really calculable when you know how strong your char and the other char is.There are possibilities to roleplay with more circumstances that influences a fight and you can give your other side the chance to avoid a fight he didnt wanted IG and OOC (also bad guys dont want to fight all the time). But give your other side also the time for emoting (you can use the #o to give brief informations). In these touchy RP-situations I think it would help to communicate briefly in OOC to avoid misunderstandings and tell your RP-PARTNER (NOT RP-ENEMY) what you want or absolutely dislike (well Im not thinking about setting too much restrictions for the RP) and keep up a respectful way of OOC- communication. Thats why we have these discussions in the forum about masked characters and bad guys. We lack of communication and that cause problems.

Concerning the bans: my outlaw character isnt banned, so I dont know how hard it is to develop a character without all these advantages in towns but I can imagine that. But when you play a bad guy and was convicted than you have to live with the consequences like being banned (better than being imprisoned, or? ;) ). However, that ban dont need to be a game engine issue. I can imagine that bad guys could enter the towns as masked/disguised characters or they can use potions to transmute into another race (this kind of disguised roleplay need a lot of self-disciplin for sure). On the other side the problem will be that the "good" characters needs a safe place to live and work they wont have.
(I know about that masked character problem which was already discussed in the forum. Thats another topic. )


We play together so its good to discuss problems like that in the forum and I hope we can work on these problems to imrpove that game so all players will have more fun and will feel more confident.
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Re: Hew

Post by Mephistopheles »

Honestly I tried to raise the above mentioned points years ago. The unfortunate truth is that we cannot base things on the honor rule by trusting one player not to waltz into town detstroy everyone's fun, because, well people liked to do so in the past.

With magic, monster guards, and these other milestones worked on, the quality of illarion will most likely vastly improve. I just hope in light of all this that there isn't more design decisions to handicap anyone in particular.

I simply think Outlaws should be considered a viable faction as a part of the design. Certainly not simple implementation, duly noted.
User avatar
Q-wert
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 10:13 am
Contact:

Re: Hew

Post by Q-wert »

I'm liking the discussion thus far.
Excuse me for another personal response:
Mephistopheles wrote:However Bob wasn't banned from Cadomyr for about two months while outlawed. Let me ask.. was there ever an issue of Bob waltzing into Cadomyr while the strong chars were away? No.. there wasn't.
Actually, yes. That is what got him banned. Several people reported to have encountered him in the settlement. All of which unable to do anything but watch from distance when someone with an order to be killed on sight walks right onto the market place... and that during months where the mentioned strong characters were very active. Their players can't be online 24/7 and if someone, knowingly or not, takes advantage of that there is little else than a ban to respond with.
User avatar
Mephistopheles
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Murica

Re: Hew

Post by Mephistopheles »

Edit:

Lul

sad
Post Reply