Ork Chief Duels

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Drugar Stonesmasher
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Ork Chief Duels

Post by Drugar Stonesmasher »

Hello,

this is just an idea - no statement or critizism of how it is/was done currently.


When there is a duel for leadership of orks, i wonder if this should not happen at more equal terms.
So maybe no armor at all, and maybe even just fists.
Currently everything is predetermied. (even though i believe the result of the last one would have been the same)

Because i wonder, what strengh does an orc proove by using highly gemmed armor.


appart from that.. quite a nice show
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Jupiter
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Jupiter »

This is completely an ingame matter, in my eyes.
Drugar Stonesmasher
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Drugar Stonesmasher »

did i address it otherwise?

sure its a matter of the related players only and just a thought that came to me afterwards.
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Rincewind
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Rincewind »

Finally an opportunity to share my OOC thoughts about duels and orcs-culture.

IG we claim this and that is tradition, of course nothing of it could be found in the lore. Every Orc-Player is free to create the code or moral he/she has grown up with and bear that into our shared world. Now be welcome to have a look inside my characters background.

Why do orcs fight duels in the first place?
To protect their family or to settle a personal dispute.

In orc-society daily tasks are usual distributed among the members. Self-understood not everyone has the same interests and abilities. The best warriors task is to defend the others. It is very rare a conflict turns in to a full clan war. Orcs have a culture where robbing and plundering is not viewed as evil, rather a common method to increase ones numbers and strength. To make an Orc so angry that he desires to kill you is harder than most humans think. The Orcs even have a name for such bloodthirsty beings, and they usually chain them to a tree until there is need for an angry animal that could swing an axe.

So if two Clans clash, it doesn't mean necessarily there will be a lot of casualties. A duel between the two strongest is always an option, since the looser will be assimilated and not slaughtered. Slaughtering wouldn't help anyone, while new women and whelps or even warriors are incredibly precious.

So if two orcs compete, they usually tell each other their opinions. (like: your clan should be my clan) Should they disagree they will stand in for their opinion with all they got. It is a sign of weakness and fear to negotiate rules for a duel, especially because the basic system is as clear as American beer to every orc:

Two people fight until it is obvious who is superior. The looser has three options: Exile, Death or Accepting that his opinion doesn't matter anymore.

In the current case for example a naked fistfight would have only happened if one party started to strip before the actual fight begins. Showing he is not afraid, to get killed by a honor-less opponent. He would have proven to everyone who watched that he got the superior attitude and the crowd would be on his side. Maybe the Duel wouldn't even start because the crowd gangs up on the honor-less aggressor. Sure the Guy still could slaughter the crowd, but what would he gain from it? He wanted to rule them, if his aim was to slaughter everyone he would just do it without any duel at all.


Why does the strongest orc rules the Clan?

Law of nature, basically. The strongest will ensure the survival of the family. The strongest will defend them with his/her life, in case of an enemy raid. He/she will face the most grim looking opponent on the battlefield in order to protect his weaker buddies. He/she will be the one accepting a challenge from another Alpha, to prevent the aggressor to harm the family. The strongest orc is one official representative of the Family. The others must pay their respect, not to push the Strongest-Ones ego, but to look strong and unified to others. You don't interrupt when he/she speaks, you don't question the given orders in front of others. This should be common sense, and if it isn't the Strongest will explain it very quickly.

The strongest might delegate the tiring job of daily business to a trusted person ( :arrow: Chief, Shaman) but in the end the strongest creates the safe space for a family to grow. A Clan of weaklings is defenseless and will soon end up as prey of any predator.


What does it really mean to be strong?

Being strong not only means to be a brutal warrior. Orcs prove to be strong even without a weapon - it is set in their minds (or not). It means they can adjust to survive. It means they don't give up. They are eager to advance. They want to improve what they are doing. This traits are the ones who make my orc respect your orc, even if mine could kill yours with little effort.

Is it honorless to use whatever it takes to win a war?
No, that's called 'being smart'. But ask yourself, is it a war I fight? Or do I try to impress that pretty female over there?
If you have read all of that, you deserve a cookie. Go and get yourself some, I allow it.

All the Best,
Rincewind
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BjarsTale
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by BjarsTale »

Erstmal; ich habe mich gefreut soviele Orks gleichzeitig dort zu haben, war toll! Auch wenn Krukk verhauen wurde :mrgreen:

Nunja Rangkämpfe sind Clan intern, das heißt ein Ork versucht mit Stärke und list einen bereits vergebenen "Rang" einzunehmen.
Da gibt es bei manchen Clans sicher eine Regelung, ohne Hilfe von Magie oder Giften den Kontrahenten zu besiegen aber das kann auch von Clan zu Clan unterschiedliche Regeln sein oder sogar gar keine.

Da Juuma und Krukk jedoch beides Anführer sind, ist es ein Konflikt zwischen zwei Clans, in diesen Kämpfen geht es darum die Ehre des anderen Clans zu mindern, den Clan zu schwächen und den eigenen mit Beute und abwerben der Clanmitgliedern zu stärken. Natürlich zeigt dies auch jedem Ork und jeder anderen Rasse welcher der stärkste Clan ist.

Also das ist meine Meinung, eine Richtlinie gibt es da nicht.

Nachtrag zu Rincewinds Beitrag;
Da stimme ich zu, ein ähnliches Bild habe ich mir damals mit Illapedia und durch RPen mit anderen Ork Charakteren gemacht, natürlich auch ein wenig eigen Initiative :D
Last edited by BjarsTale on Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Falyame
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Falyame »

I also think this is an IG matter, but this idea would an RP fight make more interesting for sure. I would also absolutely welcome some "Roleplay" fights in general (for any race and if the players agree each other and if the roleplay context allow this), not only right-click your oppnonent and see who wins by the game engineering (better attributes, better items and so on). Because of this the result of a fight is really predictable and the automatically generated emotes are the same.

Rincewind wrote:If you have read all of that, you deserve a cookie. Go and get yourself some, I allow it.
Come to the blacktusk side, we have cookies!
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Morbius
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Morbius »

Hello everyone! I'm not really here right now, but I like talking about orcs, so here we go:

In short, I see this as a matter that could and perhaps should be resolves entirely in game between players and characters, but it's nice to see this sort of things being discussed in a mature and constructive manner.

It's unfortunate that I'm not able to be active in game atm to be part of all this awesome conflict, but I am very excited to see that in the absence of the chief another orc is stepping up and trying to fill the inevitable power vacuum in the most orcishly appropriate way I can imagine - with his muscles.

Regarding RP fights:

These can be hard to pull off sometimes, but very enjoyable if done well and both players are open to possibly losing even if participant A, has way more skill and gems than participant B. Personally I think the out come should be determined by an ooc discussion either before or during the role played conflict. These would actually be my personal preference in most cases due to my inability to invest enough time anymore to skill and gem my characters.

Regarding orcish culture:

In my opinion, classic orcish culture is inherently animalisitic. The most powerful 'alpha male' is usually the head of the clan due to the fact that he has proven himself as 'the most appropriate leader' in one way or another. Usually through displays of strength and combat prowess, or by leading his clan through hardship, or to glory, and other things orcs hold in high regard. Why is Grimghor chief? Because he said he was, and no one challenged him - until now anyway. :wink:
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Karrock
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Karrock »

Morbius wrote: Regarding orcish culture:

In my opinion, classic orcish culture is inherently animalisitic. The most powerful 'alpha male' is usually the head of the clan due to the fact that he has proven himself as 'the most appropriate leader' in one way or another. Usually through displays of strength and combat prowess, or by leading his clan through hardship, or to glory, and other things orcs hold in high regard. Why is Grimghor chief? Because he said he was, and no one challenged him - until now anyway. :wink:
The "problem" with being Grimghor a chief is simple. There is no better candidate. Such a position needs perfect english, and fitting social skills in combination. Your char showed many times that he can be best chief, despite that he is for my char for few hits. So theory of alpha male (strongest one) and rp are not fitting together. It's great theory, but for npcs. Of course we can still base on brain-alpha. That can fit.
But this is game and some players have more time to get skills and gems and others less.

Regarding to emote-fights. I would rather see combination of mechanics fight and roleplay. So better in skills, build, gems, char would win but that fight would look much better. Why's that? Because no one like lose, and such an emote fight would need agreement much more earlier.
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Lia
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Lia »

I think there are better Candidate, but this makes no matter.

Its like we would play it. There can be Clan who the strongest is the Chief. And there can be Clan who the strongest not is the Chief.

I remember a Orc Clan on Gobaith. The Chief wasnt the strongest Orc, but who cares. ^^

I really like emote fights, and i play it often ( not in Illa)
The Problem is like Karrock say. the most one would not lose.
But this can be nice too if you lose.

Maybe you must agree before the fight who win and who lose.
But you can also only fight. You should only remember that it dont care if you win or lose.
Both can be interessting for your Char.



By the Way i hope it can be unterstand what i mean. :)
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S'rrt
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by S'rrt »

Nobody likes to lose but there should be benefit of a doubt when one character has 10+ years more fighting experience, higher skill and attributes :lol: Then again those are details that players do not always want to share with each other so it becomes a tug-of-war of throwing "varying success"-emotes until one of the players decides their character has suffered enough.

Player pride hurts RP. It can create a situation where a less-experienced fighter keeps fighting, ignoring the obvious defeat, when they should really have collapsed some minutes ago. Characters are limited by physical trauma and the players who ignore that are just poopyheads :wink:
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Rincewind »

Are we discussing this again?

The Warlord is the strongest orc. And he/she chooses the chief, or is chief at the same time.
Rincewind wrote:. . .

The strongest might delegate the tiring job of daily business to a trusted person ( :arrow: Chief, Shaman) but in the end the strongest creates the safe space for a family to grow. . . .
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rakust dorenstkzul
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by rakust dorenstkzul »

Maybe i'm splitting hairs. but chief doesn't seem like the right term. Chief usually denotes the absolute leader of a tribe. Warlord is a fine title as it is, but in most people's minds the order would go Chief > Warlord/Shaman.

Maybe designating a "Boss snaga" or something like that would help reduce confusion
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Morbius
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Morbius »

Rincewind wrote:Are we discussing this again?

The Warlord is the strongest orc. And he/she chooses the chief, or is chief at the same time.
Rincewind wrote:. . .

The strongest might delegate the tiring job of daily business to a trusted person ( :arrow: Chief, Shaman) but in the end the strongest creates the safe space for a family to grow. . . .
My humble opinion on the above:

I don't agree that the warlord "chooses the chief", but rather that chief and warlord are two separate roles within the clan. The chief chooses/names the most gifted/notorious/powerful warrior within the clan as warlord who will represent/lead the clan in some/most if not all military matters (depending on the dynamics of the clan).
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Rincewind
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Rincewind »

yeah that is what we tell everyone. XD

But how much power does the chief actually have if the warlord turns against him/her?

Rugh'toh ruled by the mercy of Rogruk Bregoguk.
Murgo ruled by the mercy of Jag.

And Grimghor rules now by the mercy of Krukk. Although Krukks position might be even more groggy than Grimghors. Grimghor actually does some chief-work, while Krukk is just not strong enough yet to be more than representative. And thats the current issue if you ask me.

Although I still agree with the rest of your statment Morbius, in times of war the warlord becomes the key to survive and shelter the Clan. While the Chief negotiates and speaks out orders, everyone looks up to the amazing warlord hunting down one foe after another, everyone else hides behind the walls preparing for the actual battle.

Per definition a group is formed by a common spirit and has more than one person in it. If the group structure is not heavily perverted the group will always rely on the most expertised member for a certain task. No matter the title or actual rank.

Years ago the concept of the triad was established and it attracted a lot of people therefor proved to be very successful. While the shaman is undoubted the smartest one and the warlord the strongest one, being Chief is a honorable Rank, and it means that your Clan trusts you to represent them in their best interest.

It's basically Obelix(or Asterix) & Majestix & Miraculix. And all the Gauls acknowledge their expertise. You might find that you also could see it as triad of three basic classes Warrior, Politician/Noble, Mage. Of course multi-classing is an option in Illarion but even then, having 3 Leaders instead of one will make communication within the Clan a lot easier and faster. Also the burden to entertain the Clan is divided.

PS: You might remember how Majestix allways complains that he doesn't get to beat up enough romans. :P They even carry him around on a shield so he stays out of trouble and his bodyguards also seem to be lazy to follow his commands when he demands to get into the fight. There is a good reason for that if you ask me . . .
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Morbius
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Morbius »

I find myself in complete agreement with every point you have made, Rincewind (I also loved the Asterix comparison - it really fits xD).

Upon reflection on the concept of a "triad" that you mentioned. That is actually very much how the current clan functions. In their case Ish'kha = head shaman, Krukk = warlord, and Grimghor = chief. It is definitely effective for running the clan as they each make up for the others short comings in some way or another. Among them they embody strength, wisdom, and intelligence. Which in my opinion are the tree necessary traits for effective leadership (at least for orcs).
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Teflon »

My experience, the Chief should be an active main character. Similar for the Shaman and the Warlord but not as important as for the Chief. Anything else tends to fail. The Dar'krest clan proved that pretty well. The same applies for any other guild/group.
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Morbius
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Morbius »

Teflon wrote:My experience, the Chief should be an active main character. Similar for the Shaman and the Warlord but not as important as for the Chief. Anything else tends to fail. The Dar'krest clan proved that pretty well. The same applies for any other guild/group.
I feel like this is entirely directed towards me? If so, I find your statement more offensive than helpful. Sorry, but I can only be as active as real life and my time zone will allow.
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Rincewind
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Rincewind »

Second and third Chars shouldn't be accepted in any guild. Although I'm very thankful Morbius does the job for the orcs right now!
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Teflon »

Morbius wrote:
Teflon wrote:My experience, the Chief should be an active main character. Similar for the Shaman and the Warlord but not as important as for the Chief. Anything else tends to fail. The Dar'krest clan proved that pretty well. The same applies for any other guild/group.
I feel like this is entirely directed towards me? If so, I find your statement more offensive than helpful. Sorry, but I can only be as active as real life and my time zone will allow.
No offense indented. It is totally acceptable if you are hindered temporarily. RL is more important and should never come after Illarion. I think everyone understands that and no one would ever blame you for taking care of things outside of Illarion. It, however, also needs to be accepted that leading a clan/guild/faction/whatever requires a time commitment. In particular, if the group is structured very hegemonically, where everything depends on the leader. If the decision makers are not available IG or not even via forum or PM or if it takes ages for a response, it hinders the game and fun of all others involved.
I can't estimate how much time you can or want to spend on Illarion and on this certain character but I don't recommend anyone who has a (constantly) very busy RL or prefers to play other characters to play a role on whom everything depends on. Experience shows this will end up with frustration for this person and all those who are involved. Playing a leader is not just about being able to show up and brag how great someone is, it also brings a lot of responsibilities for your group and the community. It seems as many players underestimate this. At least we can observe how often some disappear very quickly as soon as they have their initially wished power position. I don't say this applies to you but that this is an observation we have made very often.
As I see it, there are two options. The more drastically option would be to find someone who can fulfill the requirement and step down from this important position. The other option is to restructure and shift responsibilities, that not everything is depended on one character and things can move on IG without having to wait for this one person (This option bears the risk that you lose the fun playing this character at all when you see "power" shifting away from you. At least I experience that I lost fun playing the Don. It was more fun two years ago but that is okay with me. It allows me to focus on other things and players can have more responsibilities as they wish for and we prefer. ;)). With your creativity, however, I'm convinced you guys find a solution how to deal with it IG and OOC. I recommend that you prepare for the cases when you are not available. For instance, implement a ranking of characters. It is up to you what category you chose for such ranking. It could be skills, strength, wealth, spirituality, or a bone system as the Dark'rest had once (which would allow much more flexibility), etc. Highest ranked character IG available decides and doesn't have to wait for the "go" by the Chief or hold raids etc. if the Chief isn't there.
I hope that helps.
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Falyame »

Rincewind wrote:Second and third Chars shouldn't be accepted in any guild.
So 4th and 5th Chars can be accepted? :D ....Im just kidding.
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Rincewind »

To clarify my statement, since it came rather short.

Each player should be involved in maximal one guild.

If you try to be in more than one, you will disappoint one guild-leader sooner or later and harm the guild in the long run, since your character becomes even less reliable (next to RL-issues) No friends are better than fake friends. Not to mention the increased danger of OOC-mixing.
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Lia
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Lia »

Rincewind wrote: If you try to be in more than one, you will disappoint one guild-leader sooner or later and harm the guild in the long run, since your character becomes even less reliable.
I can not confirm this in any way. My two main chars are both in a guild. For years (RL) and therefore there were never problems.
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Morbius »

Thank you for your honest feedback and advise, Teflon. I will admit, you did strike a nerve initially, so sorry for getting defensive. You have actually made some very valid points that I will definitely be considering more carefully in the future running of the clan. :wink:

As for everyone else: sorry I've been away, or playing other characters. I'll try to be back with renewed motivation soon.
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Jupiter
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Jupiter »

Rincewind wrote:To clarify my statement, since it came rather short.

Each player should be involved in maximal one guild.

If you try to be in more than one, you will disappoint one guild-leader sooner or later and harm the guild in the long run, since your character becomes even less reliable (next to RL-issues) No friends are better than fake friends. Not to mention the increased danger of OOC-mixing.
I would say that depends on what kind of guilds they are, how active you play your characters, and what activity level is required in those guilds to work properly. While your statement is too general, it is certainly right too carefully consider if you have the time and the possibilities to handle more than one character in a guild.

E.g.: Nothing would be wrong with having a second character that is a member of some farmer's guild, who just likes to grow his crops and meet and drink with his fellow peasants from time to time, while you also have some very active politician in some powerful guild.
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Falyame »

Morbius wrote:As for everyone else: sorry I've been away, or playing other characters. I'll try to be back with renewed motivation soon.
It´s all right. We other clan members redound to the clan´s inactivity/activity as well. Our activity shouldnt depend on your IG appearance. We are playing orcs because of the "orcishness", not because of expecting some entertainment from you ;).

I´m inactive as well, but that isnt caused by lack of motivation, dont get me wrong.
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Re: Ork Chief Duels

Post by Morbius »

Thank you Falyame, that's re-assuring. Hopefully some of the other Blacktusks will awaken from their hibernation soon, haha.
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