Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

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GolfLima
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by GolfLima »

for pre vbu: - if i remember right
* it was nearly impossible to get a magical gem as a crafter
* in my eyes most of the effects for crafters were sensless
Hew Keenaxe wrote:I think he was asking for a list of gems, by old gobaith
Not if you got them
Not how you got them
Just what they did.
:arrow: just only remind you about this
:arrow: at the moment the new gem system supports fighters ONLY
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Seajiha
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Seajiha »

Quick translation of GolfLima's post:

Pre-VBU efect of magical gems

Code: Select all

Name          Color     Weapons                  Armor+Shields                Magic                         Tools                         Jewelry
topaz         yellow    more Damage              higher Slice-Defense         higher mana reg               higher quality                higher quality of essence/raise willpower
amethyst      purple    faster attack            less weight/faster moving    faster casting                faster working                faster walking
blackstone    black     use weakness of enemy    hurt enemy                   Movement-magic/heal poison    repair 'things'               more strength
emerald       green     accuracy                 higher Stitch-Defense        higher range                  durability of the tool        higher perception
bluestone     blue      higher defense           higher defense               better heal/elementcreation   quality of tools              higher body resistance
diamond       white     higher durability        higher durability            higher durability             higher durability of tools    higher spirit
ruby          red       higher attackstrength    higher Slash-Defense         improved battle-magic         more talent in crafting       higher dexterity
Blackstone was replaced with obsidian and bluestone with sapphire after the vbu.
Last edited by Seajiha on Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Please note that not all of these effects were implemented. Actually, I suspect most weren't. What is the source of the list?
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GolfLima
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by GolfLima »

Seajiha wrote:Pre-VBU efect of magical gems

  Code:
Name          Color     Weapons                  Armor+Shields                Magic                         Tools                         Jewelry
topaz         yellow    more Damage       higher Slice-Defense         higher mana reg         higher quality           essence/raise willpower
:arrow: thanks for quick translation

* these informations are collectet from my charakter at Gobaith
* if i remember right most of the informations were published in books
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Azuros
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Azuros »

Yes, there was a book in the trollsbane library that listed these effects about the magic gems before.
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Jupiter
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

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Vern Kron
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Vern Kron »

Estralis Seborian wrote:Please note that not all of these effects were implemented. Actually, I suspect most weren't. What is the source of the list?
Regardless of if they were implemented or not, this list provides a dynamic of different capabilities and interesting abilities that the gems could provide for all characters. It also had the value of adding customization to the character involved.

For example, if you saw a character with a massive blackstone in their sword, then you realized "Oh, this guy is going to be strong, and likely is going to fight pretty dirty."


There was significant times when I knew characters would go out and fight the proper monsters and go hunting treasure maps together, to both compete and keep up to speed with their counter parts.

As it currently stands, a character that is active within the game, and continues to be active, has a significant advantage over new characters. Admittedly, I am not entirely against that. However, that advantage really on stops at around 50% because getting a full set of level 6 gems takes quite a bit. Pretending that level 5 gems are a soft cap to be reached for older players, that gives some time for new players to get their own gems together.

Is the list straight forward? Not exactly, but it is also not terribly confusing. If the information was provided in a book, readily available IG (as it was in pre-vbu, in all of the libraries, including Troll's Bane on the second floor in the bigger room, second bookshelf from the door on the north wall) then confusion wouldn't be an issue either.

The primary problems in this situation that I would see is:

It's proposed interaction with the magic system (because of it's interaction with attributes, I would assume), a system that has not been officially informed to everyone, and likely won't be a factor for at the very least a few months if not year(s).
The workload that it would require to give each of the gems listed 4 different effects.
The possibility of having to redesign how gems are distributed, because people are likely to be upset at balancing issues of what town got what gem, and perceived notions of some gems being better than others.
It requires a player to think beyond four seconds in order to figure out what they would like to do.
It is tied to the dark-age of pre-vbu.

Because of those problems as listed, I don't imagine that any of the above will be considered, or acknowledged as a possibility. However, I think there is something that can be learned and evaluated from a system that pulled more than a simple flat percentage bonus: more possibilities = more fun.
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Velisai
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Velisai »

I've worked my way through the remains of a presentation Estralis posted. It was a tough, but somewhat enlightening read. That concept sounds fun for a massive multiplayer tactical battle simulator with RPG elements. I still think its not suited for an RP enforced, sandboxy game like Illa is supposed to be. If it was actually fully implemented here, we would have the other extreme of constant unresolvable conflict based on an all controlling game mechanic instead of actual character interaction. That guy is about player interaction, most of which is violent and mechanical, because he designs a competitive, PvP heavy, tactical game and not an RP environment. I'll not go into more detail here unless requested, as I think the core problems of the gem and faction system we have, have been identified.

As for the old effects, they were indeed a more interesting approach as well as not fully implemented, partially bugged, very imbalanced and not very well designed in the first place. We can do a lot better, but not incrementally and immediately. We'd need to do that planned review of the whole combat system (Milestone IV), hopefully including all kinds of magic, first and implement a new one that can support a wide enough range of gem effects. The current implementation of trading blows with weapons is just too simple and straightforward to have more interesting gems. It is truly a massive amount of work, but people have designed balanced, interesting and not overly complicated combat systems, some even on their own without any help, so it should be possible for a community of several dozen active members. This is not directed as a request at the people with blue or red forum names, just to be extra clear here.

I didn't have the opportunity to read the concept for the new magic system, so I'll refrain from posting any concrete ideas regarding gems and combat until then.

If ctrl + a -> del isn't an option, a relatively simple interim fix for the current problems would be:
- make the type of gems one receives from towns completely random, so trade isn't eliminated, but doesn't depend on faction affiliation anymore
- cap the gem level at 2 or 3 (latent gems being level 0) to avoid the never ending arms race and to make trading gems for something other than gems viable

Of course this alone would oversaturate the game with gems after a while and their value would start to decrease rapidly, but that could be counteracted by severely lowering (to 1 or even a 0.5 chance of 1 or 0) the number of gems received from towns, once a character got the number needed to fully gem 6 items (full armour set + weapon).
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Fooser »

Devs: Is it even possible to have certain stats (ex. Attack speed, health regeneration) boosted in small 1% increments?
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GolfLima
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by GolfLima »

Fooser wrote: That concept sounds fun for a massive multiplayer tactical battle simulator
:arrow: true :!:

in the old gemsystem
* "only" fighters could get gems
* most of the effects for crafter were sensless
:arrow: this system cant work after VBU - i think there are nearly 100.000 - 200.000 lvl1 gems ig at the moment

after VBU
+ at the moemnt the gem-sets only support fighters
+ new players have a massive handicap
BUT
- all char can get mag gems
- you need a set of gems - that reduces the massive occurance and possibilities of using gems
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Jupiter »

Fooser wrote:Devs: Is it even possible to have certain stats (ex. Attack speed, health regeneration) boosted in small 1% increments?
Those are no stats but derived from stats (stats are just our 8 attributes). What you can do is to add a variable to the formulation that calculates those things. How feasible it is, depends on what you actually want to do. For example, increasing the HP regeneration depending on what gems are in your rings shouldn't be too difficult. Most work would be the balancing. 5% more attack speeds will probably have a completely different impact than +5% for hp regeneration.
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Seajiha
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Seajiha »

Well one problem I see with changing things in the game (like alter the gems; reduce the insane amount of crafted/owned items) is that players already own quite a lot of them and not all would agree to cut down these amount from one patch to another. Therefore a commonly agreed solution (including the players) has to be created in before. This would be faster (I assume) if players just post there ideas (there's even a forum for it) how to do it in the feature (like a list of gem effects [most possibly with details]) instead of saying what is currently wrong.

edit: see below
Last edited by Seajiha on Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Velisai
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Velisai »

I don't have a detailed plan with all the stats, variables and every formula for a perfect RPG figured out just floating around in my head either, but I don't think anyone here has so there's no reason for anyone to feel bad about it. I have some ideas though, can at least read and make sense of much of a LUA script and have enough spare time (after I'm done with the tutorial review). Game design just isn't fun enough in itself for me to not care whether my ideas have any chance of being accepted. I'm trying to let everyone who cares to read understand the way I think and what direction I'd like to go because I want to know whether there's even any common ground here. The more people care to express their thoughts, the clearer the picture will be, so I asked people to not limit themselves to a certain form or level of detail, as long as it isn't playing the blame game. Nobody is required to read anything here, so please consider not discouraging feedback that's been specifically asked for, even if it is just a player pointing out what they see as a problem in the current game.
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Seajiha
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Seajiha »

Let me correct my statement: I really don't want players to stop saying what they are thinking (well, I'm a player myself so..), I also don't want players to lay down a complete plan how to implement what changes. The only problem I see is that if a player just says "Mechanic A in the game is bad", this may not be intended to be a blame, but some developer may feel bad about it aka it hits his motivation to develop. With a more constructive form of feedback like "Currently I dont like mechanic A, because xyz" it would be better. And I think with something along the lines "Currently I dont like mechanic A, because xyz and maybe changing feature 1 in the mechanic to feature 2" it would be even better.

Back to topic: After thinking a bit about it I found that I have experienced other fighting systems in similar games before, there every (melee)weapon had three different types of attack: evade, slash, hit. This would allow to have different gems with different effects on the fight, but this would require the players to be really active during the fight, so I am not sure about this idea.
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Tyan Masines »

Mephistopheles wrote:Less players in a town+ [...]
Fewer...
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by 1d20 »

Can someone please explain the whole gems thing to me? :)
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Vern Kron
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Vern Kron »

The way gems currently operate:

There are six magical gems in play, each town distributing of two types. Magical gems can be combined of the same type (3 latent magical gems make a slight one, and then three slight ones makes the next level. They must be the same color as well.) Equipping them as individuals gives a percentage increase, but if you manage to get a set of all 6, the percentage is significantly higher, so it is desirable to have atleast one latent gem of every kind in a piece of equipment, in essence doubling it's bonus.

The problem that people feel from this is that old players who have stuck around for a while have naturally accumulated more and gained such significant bonus that it appears and feels as if the characters cannot be outmatched, particularly those who are heavily designed for fighting (in a system that the only way to contest someone in pvp is the fighting system, even though we have a small selection of creative means to limit that through alchemy, at the end of the day, strong is still strong.)

Furthermore the gem system heavily favors those who are tied to factions, because gems are most effectively rewarded through towns (though magical gems can be found in gathering crafts, and some treasure maps (cannot confirm this)).

People dislike this because they believe that it: inhibits roleplay (of a style that the game clearly was actively designed to inhibit in the first place), and it doesn't allow new characters to easily catch up to old ones (though at some point the cost to get the new higher gems becomes very very difficult, providing a soft cap that players can catch up through, although it is at like 50%, which is a sizable advantage a character may have).
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by 1d20 »

Thanks :)

And how do people obtain these gems?
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Vern Kron »

Karl wrote:Thanks :)

And how do people obtain these gems?
Towns distribute them automatically, or with a low, low, percentage drop from gathering crafts.
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Jupiter »

Vern Kron wrote:Towns distribute them automatically, or with a low, low, percentage drop from gathering crafts.
And monster drops and treasures.
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Estralis Seborian »

And some NPC quests. Some also trade with other players.

Edit: To have the full picture, it should also be summarised what players like about the system.
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Kugar »

New characters can certainly catch up with oldies, but they can't do it by themselves - cooperative multiplayer game.

Heres one example of how you can do it: Compose a system in which crafters and non fighters give their gems to the realm guard/knight/protector/guild group leader in exchange for coins on a monthly basis. The leader or group itself will distribute the gemstones among the group equally and based on what gems they need so that the entire realm gets stronger. Depending on how good the leader is, they will create trade relations with another leader in another realm and have a steady income of all colours of gemstones. If your realm is small like Cadomyr, your character simply becomes an obedient grot to the highest ranked/ highest skilled person - this gives you access to all sorts of possibilities and a higher chance of success of catching up to the elites. This hasn't been done mostly because everyone is protective or their gems or, for a better word, selfish :)

Although, whilst that might seem like a good idea and perfect for multiplayer gameplay, the current reliance on all realms being bossom buddies in order to achieve something like this means that wars, trade embargoes and so on are very unlikely to happen.
because everyone loses and nobody gains anything from it.
But seeing as currently all the realms ARE cooperating ig then there's really no excuse not to try my example.The point is that it's entirely possible to catch up with each other if there is a collective effort to do so, but you have to be a towny (or atleast start/pretend to be one until you get enough gems to live in the wild). But there should be no illusion that something like my example can be achieved without regular large donations to the realm you belong to. You can't just catch up with elite characters with no effort, that's the whole point. When the Merinium Syndicate in Galmair was active, we drowned in gemstones because we made a collective effort to help each other and got clever about it.

On the other hand, the only way for outlaws to do something like this is to buy gemstones from those who support them in secret or put in a large amount of work ie do a couple giant maps everyday. Or steal them from people/charge a life tax or buy them all at auctions like my char Jeff does/did. That's not a complaint btw, that's just the way it is.

Magical gemstones are nice in the sense that they give you something to play for when you've achieved everything else the game currently has to offer. They reward hard work and allow you to become a tank - which means that since outlaws/villains will certainly always be shorter in numbers that the town defenders, they can atleast become a short number of tanks and have a chance of success in winning battles. And since the towns don't look like they will have any falling outs any time soon, Illarion depends on outlaws to create conflict (seemingly only source of currently, aside from gm quests and tiny arguments). More support for outlaws would be great but since that's quite unlikely, I'll just keep building my tank for now the hard way. I personally am not against some kind of cap in their strength, but moderate seems too low. Maybe average, atleast.

On the other hand, having characters that are highly gemmed could be utilized as leaders or champions of the realms etc etc. Not everyone has to be an uber leader, no shame in being a follower. Work together, create a unit. Come and be my soldier for example, we have a cookies. We also have strawberry cake 8)

Things need changed for balance and possibilities, I don't doubt it. But that's the reality of what we're currently working with here.
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Fooser »

Estralis Seborian wrote:Edit: To have the full picture, it should also be summarised what players like about the system.
When you and the bros have gems

Image
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by GolfLima »

Kugar wrote:Compose a system in which crafters and non fighters give their gems to the realm guard/knight/protector/guild group leader in exchange for coins on a monthly basis.
:arrow: coins are totally senseless at the moment
:arrow: as an advanced finesmith you are able to make "tons of goldcoins" if you like (( :arrow: may be result in a higher monthly gem-output ))
:arrow: the "gem-system" must be adjusted & rebalanced (( as i heared gem-sets in armor are overpowered at the moment // and we need a gem-system for crafters // mages in future ))
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Kugar »

*Valid points, Golflima. However, my example is how to do it with the current system.
Coins are senseless to some crafters, sure. But warriors need them constantly (repair etc, it would be great to see crafters pay warriors to shift large quantities of goods but I've never seen it happen) and some folks save up coins for future building projects or donations. Crafters can only do so much technically, as you've stated plenty in the past, but keep in mind you can still expand your business and hire/train workers and become the most profitable business in Illarion. What's the point in a merchant if he doesn't want to get filthy rich and grow his empire? There are many role play possibilities, did you try any of them yet? Become an asset for the game, lead by example. If you want more players to take an interest, teach them what your character knows and employ them or whatever. What is your end goal for crafters anyway?

Gemmed armor isn't over powered - gemmed weapons are under powered. I'd like to see gems in tools and wands, as I suppose they will be in the future, too, by the way. Balance ftw and all that.

*IMO

Edit: correction in bold :mrgreen:
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Mephistopheles »

GolfLima wrote:
Kugar wrote:Compose a system in which crafters and non fighters give their gems to the realm guard/knight/protector/guild group leader in exchange for coins on a monthly basis.
:arrow: coins are totally senseless at the moment
:arrow: as an advanced finesmith you are able to make "tons of goldcoins" if you like (( :arrow: may be result in a higher monthly gem-output ))
:arrow: the "gem-system" must be adjusted & rebalanced (( as i heared gem-sets in armor are overpowered at the moment // and we need a gem-system for crafters // mages in future ))

What happened to roleplayed greed?
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