Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

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Mephistopheles
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Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Mephistopheles »

There is a major divide in the capability of fighter characters due to gems.

Less players in a town+ a lot of wealth= incredibly op production of gems. <--- Recipe for disaster?

This has been visited time and again, right now people don't want to make moves against the powers that be in the game because if they are cut off from the roleplaying hotspots they're also cut off from enough gems to stay competitive as well as tools that are not unreasonably difficult to work at (should try smelting ingots while orcs are stabbing you and slinging magic or forging a plate while dwarves are beating your knees in with hammers). Hell if you have a sneaky villain becoming too strong in town you could just meta game and use lies to get him or her banned! (it's been done) Then they can't continue to get stronger.

I have played for longer than most people having alot of time. However I don't want to play a game where I can be out playing for 6+ hours a day, and get nothing but a few latents each week while others just log in to receive a much higher payout of gems for literally doing nothing.

Now the divide keeps growing, and my char just gets cornered at the Inn when he needs to use the only depot he has access to. There used to be a time where there were plenty of depots and plenty of tools, a time when if you wanted to be an uber warrior with high level gems.. you had to actually grow a pair and go hunt dangerous monsters. Now I spend 3 hours fighting monsters and get a bunch of useless crap and no gems (from monsters that previously dropped gems).

Suffice it to say I'm a tenacious player not easily driven off, however I'm bored and rather sick of the black and white view of good and evil and which chars should be punished and which ones should get their poetic justice. Instead of playing it out there just the predestined path of getting crushed by gem stuffed players or sitting by a campfire with pregnant women. Even the "bad" guys are just sneaky weak losers scraping for the dregs of fun out of the barrel.
Last edited by Mephistopheles on Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

" Even the "bad" guys are just sneaky weak losers scraping for the dregs of fun out of the barrel."

I take offense to that. I want the whole barrel.
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Mephistopheles »

If conflict is to thrive and colorful roleplay to be available players need depots and tools, magic gems imo should be hunted for instead of collected.

There should be faction bonus', don't misunderstand, I just think it should be a bit more creative bonuses than taking the important features that involve comfortably playing the game as part of that bonus.

Features that allow one to comfortably play the game should be open for all types of chars regardless of their faction or roleplay choice.
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

I am glad the repair NPC was added to Borgates, but a gemcrafter also needs to be added, or how can we properly use the few gems we get?
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Mephistopheles »

Hew Keenaxe wrote:" Even the "bad" guys are just sneaky weak losers scraping for the dregs of fun out of the barrel."

I take offense to that. I want the whole barrel.

We all want the full barrel of fun. I just wonder why it's such a difficult decision to make it available for all instead of those who sit on the proverbial white side of the spectrum.
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Caswir
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Caswir »

No one wants to read your whining dood, waste of time. So they wont change the game to favor your character. If they wanted to im sure they would have already.

Instead give my character buffs. He is the true champion.

:evil: :twisted: :evil:

Your banned bro, deal with it. Kings plotline is weak.
Fooser
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Fooser »

Every week that goes by a new character created is in a deeper hole in relation to the veteran players in terms of gems than the week before, which seems pretty astonishing. I assume the counter-argument would be that the diminishing returns get so high that it's somewhat fair, but given that most people don't stick around long enough to catch up, it may be something worth looking at.
Suffice it to say I'm a tenacious player not easily driven off, however I'm bored and rather sick of the black and white view of good and evil and which chars should be punished and which ones should get their poetic justice. Instead of playing it out there just the predestined path of getting crushed by gem stuffed players or sitting by a campfire with pregnant women.
The best kind of conflicts are when both sides have legit points and both sides think they are right a la the Free Men vs Alliance. Acting like a Bond villain sitting in a dark corner petting a cat is only going to get you so far, and can quickly become tired for both sides.

Also don't be meanies on the forum and here is a cat gif:

Image
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Mephistopheles »

Caswir wrote:No one wants to read your whining dood, waste of time. So they wont change the game to favor your character. If they wanted to im sure they would have already.

Instead give my character buffs. He is the true champion.

:evil: :twisted: :evil:

Your banned bro, deal with it. Kings plotline is weak.
Even the "bad" guys are just sneaky weak losers scraping for the dregs of fun out of the barrel.
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Kugar
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Kugar »

Caswir wrote: Your banned bro, deal with it. Kings plotline is weak.
George Herbert wrote in 1651 wrote: Whose house is of glass, must not throw stones at another.
Fooser wrote: Acting like a Bond villain sitting in a dark corner petting a cat is only going to get you so far
Challenge accepted! But there's no cats in Illa... Follow the lore, dood :x .

Regarding the topic at large:

Being that Jefferson isn't my only character I could probably go on and play Illarion with my others and be unphased by the lack of support for outlaws, but since I personally have more fun going against the grain and do know that side of the game I agree that there should atleast be a crooked magical gem smith who charges way more to deal with the gemstones. Acquiring magical gemstones from monsters and mining/digging/whatever should remain a random chance, though (but I haven't seen a gem drop from a monster in quite a while, was it removed?). It's not really that much to ask imo but it's ultimately up to the devs. Regarding the building rules and depots for outlaws I'm not so sure how that will work but having this option for guilds unassociated with the towns should atleast be a possibility, right?
Last edited by Kugar on Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Caswir
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Caswir »

Mephistopheles wrote:
Caswir wrote:No one wants to read your whining dood, waste of time. So they wont change the game to favor your character. If they wanted to im sure they would have already.

Instead give my character buffs. He is the true champion.

:evil: :twisted: :evil:

Your banned bro, deal with it. Kings plotline is weak.
Even the "bad" guys are just sneaky weak losers scraping for the dregs of fun out of the barrel.
Image
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Mephistopheles »

@Estralis
plz look at this a bit more, http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=40855
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Fooser »

A fourth faction set up in the right way could work. Or making one of the current three (four?) bearable.
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

We just need more support for Hemptie. A gemcrafter, traders that will buy most anything, even if they dont sell it. Then any rogue group could settle there and survive.
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Estralis Seborian »

We've recently discussed if we want to have a fourth "central place" within the staff and the result was a very clear "no".

Even if you consider this decision to be not the best - opinions are never "wrong" - we'd still not in the position to invest the necessary manpower.

Support for outlaws in this game is very poor by design, that is confirmed. Originally, it was planned to have none at all.
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Well your original plan was obviously flawed. I hope you see that now. There is no shame in changing it. Outlaws DO need some support since many want to play them.
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Lia
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Lia »

Hew Keenaxe wrote: since many want to play them.
I hope it is a joke. 3 -4 Player are not many. ;)

And all this who really want to play Outlaws do this Even if it is not so easy.
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Mephistopheles »

Lia wrote:
Hew Keenaxe wrote: since many want to play them.
I hope it is a joke. 3 -4 Player are not many. ;)

And all this who really want to play Outlaws do this Even if it is not so easy.
There's a misunderstanding here. It's far more than 3-4 players. Some guys just don't appreciate these sort of responses for their feedback.
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Karrock
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Karrock »

Lia wrote:
Hew Keenaxe wrote: since many want to play them.
I hope it is a joke. 3 -4 Player are not many. ;)

And all this who really want to play Outlaws do this Even if it is not so easy.
I wrote many posts about "evil" or "bad" town but I realize that chars are too much different to each other to live together in one place.
Outlaws and those who want play "shady" chars are more, but they are divided. It's bad fundament to create big settlement for them all.
I think Mephi should have possibility to create small settlement just for own guild. With depot and one work and one craft. And maybe with one vendor.
Thats all.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Estralis Seborian »

That's included in the plan for housing, yes. Maybe without the trader for now as it is tricky to create a dynamically created trader NPC.

http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=9829

-Outside the towns, a limited number of real estates is available
-In each town, there shall be 4 areas for houses. In each homeland, there shall be two areas. And in the wilderness, one area for each faction. So in total 12/6/3 areas.
-The areas inside the towns and homelands fall under the jurisdiction of the associated faction.

Probably the wording is not clear but the three wilderness areas could be claimed by any guild. We will start with 21 areas for housing. I doubt we'll have more than 21 guilds anytime soon... On guilds, see http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11291
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Drathe »

I hate to be negative with this game, I LOVE Illarion truly and the work put in. My humble opinion though is the gem system simply does not belong in the game in the state it is IF at all. Is there more to come from it? What was its initial concept idea? Its plan to be?

I just do not see the point at all in players suggesting and developers developing through the entire games developing life (years and years), trying to balance power gaming and skilling, to allow players to hone their skills and be strong but not over powered or get too 'Boss' too quick, to keep combat a little dynamic, coming up with this system and that system, tweaking and toiling only to... Add gems so the few 'rich' or 'in the know' players can twinkle like a princess beast and be even more over powered than any time in the games history. It's like a comedy twist.

I mean if you want to be bad arse you can already work towards maxing your skills, drink warrior potions, heal potions and have a good diet. These add some variables/dynamic state that can be learnt and mastered by new and old players alike. What do gems really add other than make a divide new players will never close. A trade dependency that stagnates tri-town conflict.

This is going to be a nightmare when magic comes back in the game and mages have uber gemmed wands and cloaks or light armour. But that's a whole other topic for people to rage quite over yet to come.

Bullet points of above:
* Gems create unclosable disparity between new & old players.
* Gems are not dynamic/variable in direct combat (diet, potions are).
* Gem dependency helps create stagnancy by discouraging town on town conflicts/event.
* Gem dependency is a hindrance to 'outlaws' or out of the box roleplaying.
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Fooser »

Throwing out some ideas:

1) Make gems the mechanism for magic resistance

Right now we have armor for melee damage but basically nothing for magic damage. This option would involve removing any magic resistance skill and any armor effect on magic resistance. It would also mean removal of gems from weapons (like was done for shields). Cap gems at level 5. That means 5 slots x 5 rank = 25% resistance in each area (torso, feet, etc.) The 2x bonus would also be gone.

2) Make gems give specialized bonuses

This is sort of how it used to be. Gems could give specific bonuses that can allow for specialization without being OP. Each gem would need a bonus appealing to both melee and casters. Gems would be capped at rank three. 2x bonus removed. Only one gem per slot (6 slots). You can max one gem type up to 18% or be more balanced. Examples:

Blackstone: Increase armor by X%
Emerald: Increase health and mana regen by X%
Topaz: Increase attack/cast speed by X%
Ruby: Increase max health by X%

3) Remove gems entirely

The most controversial option as many have put time and coins into this. But we're ultimately here as game testers so get over it. Gems are now considered the "end game" goal. Before the open-ended game world was the "end game". So gems are covering up for other lackluster aspects. Having chars on equal footing is good for the game, with skill and attributes providing a little variability. Before you had to convince other characters, negotiate, and build alliances. Now you only need a couple gemmed chars and you can stomp on others with npc bans and 80% gem bonuses. Where's the intrigue in that?
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Please find some Mantis tickets concerning magic gems below. Please have a look and leave your comments where applicable.

http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=7040
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=8292
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=9683
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=10093
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=10356
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=10482
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=10548
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11231
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11256
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11298
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11306
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11382

Proposal #1 (gems improve magic resistance) is considered by intend in the magic concept. Proposal #3 (removal of magic gems) appears not to be consensus at this moment. Mind that we should avoid to have those who do have many magic gems stand against those who do not have them in an argument. A fruitful discussion about what is best for the game should be without bias and particular interests. Proposal #2 (gem specific effects) would mean basically the same as Proposal #3 as it would be an entirely different thing. For the general conception of the magic gems, see below. Also, a profound concept would be needed and the necessary effort has to be spent.
On the magic gems, the concept behind them can/could be found here: https://web.archive.org/web/20100617131 ... ncept-v-10. Sadly, the slides are gone but I think one can catch the general idea from the description. We adapted the concept for Illarion but some aspects are not fully implemented or deviate from the concept.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Dear all,

to avoid misunderstandings: If anyone comes up with a reasonable conception how to change the effects of magical gems from a simple (=boring) +1 % to something more complex (Proposal #2), it is appreciated and welcome. Also, we'd need a volunteer who implements that concept, considering current dependencies and constraints.

The linked Mantis tickets are the current ideas how to change the effect, acquisition, distribution and add alternative uses of magic gems. Some are more relevant than others but I listed all I could find without preselection, sorted by their reference. We have e.g.:
  • Limitation of the set bonus by adding the requirement for magical diamonds
  • Gem effects for crafters and gatherers
  • Acquisition by PvP and/or monster guards
  • Change of the effect calculation in weapons
Concerning the complete removal of magic gems from the game, I have the impression that the main concern is the use and effect of the gems, not the general idea to have magic gems you can socket into items to increase their use. From my point of view, these effects need to be revisited and adjusted. Also, I do not have the impression that the conversion of money to gems via taxes plus the other ways how you can get gems (quests, gathering, monster drops) are generally disputed but that scalar parameters (chances, amounts etc.) are not considered well balanced.

When the magic gem system was first proposed, it got the impression it is a very neat system. With its addition, Illarion got something that is very special and can make Illarion stand out against other games. I did not create the system, so not everything is like I would have implemented it. For example, we lack ways to get gems "by force" and gems that are not bond to one faction. But I don't think the best solution to the situation is CTRL+A DELETE.

Estralis
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Vern Kron
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Vern Kron »

I know that there is probably a lot of reasons for this, but can we examine the problem with the previous system of gems we had in the pre-vbu? I thought the system was pretty interesting, and effective. But maybe it wasn't? Or does no one remember it?
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Rincewind »

I remember: Half of it was bugged, and it was near impossible to get your hands on the gems as casual player. And if you wanted to combine them there was a chance they got detroyed, that was crazy. Although I admit the promised effects sounded fun.

The problem to go back on it might be, that most effects are included in the Magic Concept that is in development now.
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Vern Kron
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Vern Kron »

Do we happen to have a list of what those effects were from the original set, that then could be worked upon and edited?
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by GolfLima »

for pre vbu: - if i remember right
* it was nearly impossible to get a magical gem as a crafter
* in my eyes most of the effects for crafters were sensless
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

I think he was asking for a list of gems, by old gobaith
Not if you got them
Not how you got them
Just what they did.
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Re: Gems and the Recipe for Disaster

Post by GolfLima »

leider nur in DEU // sorry only in GER
VOR-VBU Wirkungen von mag.Steinen // pre-VBU effects of mag. gems

Name - Farbe - Waffen - Rüstung & Schilde - Magie - Werkzeuge -Schmuck
Topas - gelb -mehr Schaden - mehr Schutz vor Schneiden - erhöte Mana Regeneration - höhere Qualität Essenz / Willenskraft erhöhen
Amethyst - lila - schneller - weniger Gewicht / schneller bewegen - schneller zaubern - schneller - schneller gehen
Schwarzstein - schwarz - Schwächen des Gegners nutzen - Gegner Schaden zufügen - Bewegungsmagie / Heilung von Gift - Reparieren von Dingen - mehr Stärke :arrow: jetzt Obsidian
Smaragd - grün - Zielgenauigkeit - mehr Schutz vor Stich - größere Reichweite - längere Haltbarkeit des Werkstücks - bessere Warnehmung
Blaustein - blau - bessere Verteidigung - bessere Verteidigung - bessere Heilmagie / Schaffung von Elementen - Qualität des Werkzeugs - Körper wird Wiederstandsfähiger :arrow: jetzt Saphir
Diamant - weiß - höhere Haltbarkeit - höhere Haltbarkeit - höhere Haltbarkeit - höhere Haltbarkeit des Werkzeugs - besserer / mehr Geist
Rubin - rot - erhöhte Angriffskraft - mehr Schutz vor Hieb - erhöhte Kampfmagie - mehr handwerkliches Talent - höhere Geschicklichkeit
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