Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

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Seajiha
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Seajiha »

Registered to answer here :mrgreen:

While still very new to the game, I've read a lot in the forums the last days, weeks, so I hope I am able to give some valid feedback.
Also, the map is just too big these days. For the size of the player base, there just isn't a need for a map this big. Shove people into a smaller space and you'll get more interactions, by sheer necessity.
While this may work, many players will be upset about this. I've seen more players requesting even new map features, so the map doesn't seem to be to big. I think it is more important to create some points where players are most often. This was also the reason given from the devs, why there wont be more than three factions/cities: to reduce the split of players between the locations. I think a bigger problem is the learning system. In its current state it "forces" players to do their skills one at a time in one block to be efficient. During this block, players often do not rp or are in locations that do not help to rp (like alone in a dark cave). After that, they are unable to learn anymore for quite a long time. They are now "forced" to roleplay. But enforcing roleplay will not lead to great roleplay I think, but reduce motivation. If they then logoff and make a break of one month, they will still have no progress to make, as the learning points (mc?) only reset during online time. So two things happen: Players wont login anymore, as they cannot do anything productive in the game alone and RP is not always possible regarding the current player numbers. Or: Players login to idle their learning points down. Being defacto afk, they wont do any rp and look like statues to other players, who will then have the feeling that nobody does rp these days. I'm quite sure this IS a factor to reduction of rp and/or activity in general.
From the players perspective: We need more conflict.
This is true. And we need bad guys for it. Two objections here: Bad guys cannot do much things currently. Or to be more precise: all their actions (stealing, robbing, I dunno) are done completely in-rp and are not supported by game mechanics. And if some good guy has the chance to loose an item due to stealing or stopping the thief, they will often choose the latter one. But I think bad guys are not the only source of conflict. We have three factions. Three factions currently seeming to love eachother. These factions shouldn't be so peaceful to each other. I think that would be a nice source for conflict, especially if pushed by some initial gm-quests.
From the devs perspective: They need more manpower.
What can we do to help?
Now, how can we, the community help?
Coding is just the last step in creating a game, or any software product. While more developers are always nice too have, creative input can even be more valueable and is perfectly doable by normal players. Some examples:
  • Magic is missing! While there may be come general concept, I'm quite sure, devs havent defined each spell yet. Show your creative power and write down an idea for some powerful spell! Or in general: just concepts for any part of the game.
  • There are not that much sounds and effects in the game. The internet may have many good looking effects under MIT-license. Show them to the devs to incorporate them in the game.
  • Story. The story on the mainpage is absolutley unconnected to the ingame story. Rewrite it! Or an easier task: Write an ingame book, about... Gods, Monsters, Alchemy..
  • Promote the game. You don't need to open a thread on any gaming forum you know, just pass the word to friends
  • Support new players. Go to new players an rp with them. They'll directly be involved in the game and that will make them stay (probably)
While these are only some ideas, I'm quite sure this can help development. Don't be afraid to add additional points to this list. Don't be upset because your idea is altered a bit to fit the world more, but discuss your concerns in the forums (without ranting :)).
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Karrock
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Karrock »

Seajiha wrote:
From the players perspective: We need more conflict.
This is true. And we need bad guys for it. Two objections here: Bad guys cannot do much things currently. Or to be more precise: all their actions (stealing, robbing, I dunno) are done completely in-rp and are not supported by game mechanics. And if some good guy has the chance to loose an item due to stealing or stopping the thief, they will often choose the latter one. But I think bad guys are not the only source of conflict. We have three factions. Three factions currently seeming to love eachother. These factions shouldn't be so peaceful to each other. I think that would be a nice source for conflict, especially if pushed by some initial gm-quests.
Conflicts mean as wars I doubt will appear soon. We lack "evil" and "bad" chars and those who play this style are very few and they don't work together. You can't force players who play "good" or "neutral" chars to behave wrong. Especially we lack "evil" town but our "evil" chars are different to each other and can't work as one team. Without independent settlements for "evil" guilds I doubt any conflict will appear and last long. And we have too few "evil" chars.

Thief-skill cannot be implemented in my opinion because how to skilling it?
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Seajiha
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Seajiha »

Well conflict between towns does not mean all-out war. But maybe a more tense atmosphere between them. I do not know. Think of espionage and assasinations or something like this. An evil town is not working I think because evil chars are different from each other as you have said. There is no reason for some of them to work as a team.

Technical thief skill is hard I know. But completly rping will deliver MUCH failures, tho...
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Drathe
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Drathe »

I keep reading we need conflict we need conflict and I agree, its adds the black to the white and grey in between only,

No one wants to get banned from the needed town base.
No one wants to spend years making a char with good fighting stats.
No one wants to collect gems for an impossible amount of human years to boost defense.
No one wants to be hated and avoided by the 6 characters that do play.


You can RP a bad arse sure and that -is- a necessity but you need the clout to back it up.

All that rehashed and repeated aside. Its not going to happen to any great degree unless some old char thats maxed goes rouge from a town and don't care to be sat on their own in the Hempy.

The WHOLE point of the VBU TRI FACTION system was to give the opportunity to generate conflict in groups and to some extent avoid the 'Lonely antagonist syndrome'. 3 sides that could raid each other, conflict with each other, people of said towns loyal to their 'leader' and go out in groups or spy missions.

I've seen none of this, just the same old Demon wants to destroy everything -face palm- or collect loads of stuff -face palm- There is so much potential in this situation that is just totally ignored for this stagnation.

GMs/town leaders could send players/groups out to

RAID other factions lands. Attack a few faction players. If no players are present/not wanting to fight generate some npcs with some GM control for the group to attack to give it some flavor/story.
GATHER - Send out crafters to get resources from other factions lands, send a few of the heavies to protect them. Again generate npcs to add drama or flavor.
SPY - Send out a player to go creep around somewhere and spy on some GM played npc for a few words or something. Get a little info on a trade convoy or supply train.
Sabotage - Send out some players to try and poison an npc trader (trader stays there but makes for some nice RP)
Supply train- Make a small wagon train out in the faction wilds, send a team to go raid it an bring the goods back. Send a herbalist to identify what bottles are in said wagon and bring back a few select ones.
Rob - Send out a player(s) to rob a GM played faction person or trader
Beat up - Send out a player(s) to intimidate a GM played faction person. Maybe an npc trader
Poison the land - Send out a farmer to poison the oppositions farm fields or pigs.

Don't matter that if your not a fighter or a n00b its GM controlled to cater for that and let you (maybe) win something. They are just a few ideas shooting from the hip.

Players get the usual rewards, faction prestige etc. This is GM work, there needs more of them and they need to be genuinely active at least one in each town and not be overly protective of towns, they are tools for the fun, a backdrop.

There can be peace between the sides for a while, keep things interesting mix it up and lets people into the lands. (At your own risk)

But then you cant do any of this because resources and tools are town dependent so is back to stagnation again. Roll on another demon overlord quest. -face palm-

We are in a state where there is not enough GM staff, limited enthusiasm/time to do anything, and no overriding story to the world to give the conflict direction.
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Katharina Brightrim
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Katharina Brightrim »

Well, the problem is that those events, as nice as they sound, all need a GM. I really like your ideas, but they need too much GM-input.
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Karrock
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Karrock »

Drathe wrote:
RAID other factions lands. Attack a few faction players. If no players are present/not wanting to fight generate some npcs with some GM control for the group to attack to give it some flavor/story.
GATHER - Send out crafters to get resources from other factions lands, send a few of the heavies to protect them. Again generate npcs to add drama or flavor.
SPY - Send out a player to go creep around somewhere and spy on some GM played npc for a few words or something. Get a little info on a trade convoy or supply train.
Sabotage - Send out some players to try and poison an npc trader (trader stays there but makes for some nice RP)
Supply train- Make a small wagon train out in the faction wilds, send a team to go raid it an bring the goods back. Send a herbalist to identify what bottles are in said wagon and bring back a few select ones.
Rob - Send out a player(s) to rob a GM played faction person or trader
Beat up - Send out a player(s) to intimidate a GM played faction person. Maybe an npc trader
Poison the land - Send out a farmer to poison the oppositions farm fields or pigs.
RAID See http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=40978
GATHER Good if we have war or "evil" characters also.
SPY People do that without gm.
SABOTAGE & SUPPLY TRAIN None interested -> http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... =1&t=40624
ROB People do that without GM.
REST AND GENERAL I see no causes that we need support from GMs to do "bad" or "evil" things.
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Dantagon Marescot
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Dantagon Marescot »

Juniper. I'll admit I was very jealous of looking at the quest going on and seeing 20+ people online while I was stuck at work. It isn't that a quest can't be a success without a thought out description, just that a thought out description could make it more enticing especially to casual players. Any quest, especially with a GM working it is bound to be a good time. I'll also see if I can jump in the IRC some time to say hi. :wink:

Ya'll apparently didn't read through the list for conflicts when I said conflicts did you? Conflict is NOT ALWAYS a war or even violent. Conflict is a literary device that involves the struggle of two opposing forces. Conflict does not have to be violent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_(narrative). Conflict does not have to be the dark brotherhood intending to assassinate everyone in their sleep. It can be a subtle disagreement. Two opposing trade guilds either in one town or in two different towns. Conflict does not have to be violent. It is there as a device to create tension which drives the story. What can you do as a player to move the story along.

Magic update. Yes please!
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Karrock
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Karrock »

Man against society
Where man stands against a man-made institution (such as slavery or bullying), "man against man" conflict may shade into "man against society". In such stories, characters are forced to make moral choices or frustrated by social rules in meeting their own goals. The Handmaid's Tale and Fahrenheit 451 are examples of "man against society" conflicts. So is Charlotte's Web, in which the pig Wilbur fights for his survival against a society that raises pigs for food.
I play in this style as albarian but I don't have many opponents 'cause "evil" has no tools except pk and being unfriendly what can as Drathe wrote end in society ban. Please how do you imagine conflicts in this game? My char has some conflics with some characters because of origin. He is banished from Cadomyrian temple. When you play more or less "evil" or "bad" char conflicts come. But most player rather wait for more epic conflicts than ignoring by others or speak of hate by others. We lack an open conflict what would separe people on at least two camps.

Small conflicts we have.
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Dantagon Marescot
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Dantagon Marescot »

The conflicts in this game can vary. Of course we have the general bad guy robs good guy, good guy hunts down bad guy, conflicts.

An open conflict between two towns would definitely get the divide people into two camps very quickly. A long term gm quest involving a necromancer who raises dark hordes to terrorize the downs could create an epic conflict. Heck, I was talking to people last night about Cadymir and was surprised that the three houses have no discord going on. Mysts of Avalon, Game of Thrones, and Dune all have discord between houses going on. Each plotting to get the best of the other. It isn't always murder, it is spies and favor. In D&D it is called political intrigue and people have run whole campaigns based on it. Now maybe I am missing it cause I am on the fringe, I will give people that.

For you, Karrock, you are probably doing it right. You have come up with a story for your character that creates issues and therefore creates opportunities to involve in rp. Be a bully without being violent, be rough. Be adversarial to others and say things people won't like, true or not. Knock peoples stuff off the table. Be a nuisance. Treat people like they are dirt. Look at society in general. Who do you consider down right evil without actually causing violence and be that. Play the most selfish, pig headed jerk if you have to. Someone who no one likes. Make people love to hate you.

I guess what I am trying to say is, shy of GM involvement, there are ways to create conflict among characters and town without all out war. You might have to do some research especially from a GM/DM prospective for games like D&D, Pathfinder, or any D20 system game really. But I guess once of the things people can do as a player is create the character. Don't just decide to create that dwarf barbarian or human crafter cause you can. Why do they want to do what they do? Why did they come to the island? Who do they worship? What are their goals in life? What are their flaws? Even just fleshing out a character instead of just going with the flow will cause rp to happen. No one is perfect. Sometimes you have to create the character and play with them for a few days to really think about how you want to play them. A lot of times in D20 system games the DM will make people write up a short backstory, because it really fleshes out the character. Fleshed out characters aren't perfect. Having a flaw will create it's own conflict over time.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Q-wert »

Regarding lack of conflict:
I think the conflict (martial or not) craved by some can be accomplished relatively easily. From all the way back to when I started to properly get back into the game two years ago all faction leader npcs had about the same overall expectation for foreign policy from their player representatives: Maintain/achieve a peaceful status quo between the factions.

In the past conflicts between player guilds of different factions (none of them truly were the 'bad guys' so many think of as necessary for conflict, by the way) have been boiling over to armed conflict to varying degrees, but every time instructions from above (and out of player control) were to prevent their spread and to de-escalate matters back to the same old, same old. Ssar'ney, for those curious, got away with what he did by following instructions and law to the letter (and not their underlying intentions), which allowed for some leeway in the opposite direction. But you can only act up so much before misunderstandings are clarified and things settle down as intended by Queen and Don.

The same goes for infighting in the factions: Once things go over a (subjectively) low threshold of rivalry, the faction leader is rather quick do let their displeasure about that internal squabble be known. Again, people are (without player control) instructed to de-escalate their conflicts back down below threshold.

The current status is not necessarily a wholly bad thing, it creates a safe and peaceful (even if stale and to some boring) environment.
The mentioned general (and reoccurring) instructions could be easily changed to something allowing for a more hostile-friendly environment in varying shades.
It does not take any coding to change for how much fighting and infighting (figuratively and literally) between and within factions is tolerated or even encouraged.

I think the question from the dev-side of things should be: How hostile, how thriving on conflict, do we want the game to be?
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Karrock
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Karrock »

I miss conflict like in Warhammer. Empire vs Chaos. It's shame it's not possible now. "Evil" guys should unite to do something!
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Katharina Brightrim
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Katharina Brightrim »

Wow, it's like being caught in a time-loop. Everytime I look into the forum, no matter what topic, somebody says "we need evil guys! We need conflict! We should found a new evil guild! We should terrorice everybody!"

Yes, you should. But stop talking and start working instead of just saying it 200 times per day.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Mephistopheles »

Been there, still trying.

Good guys don't play fair, they have stuff I don't. :roll:
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players
Sometimes.. lately more and more.. Image :D
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Mephistopheles »

You'd be surprised how many people will log on to chase three guys
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Djironnyma »

I dont want break your heart mephy but yesterday none of us logged in for you or your buddies. Anyway I was surprised how fast you were back in front on Runewick after most of us logged of again.
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Jupiter
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Jupiter »

I had fun yesterday, so don't let us spoil that.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by rakust dorenstkzul »

Jupiter wrote:I had fun yesterday, so don't let us spoil that.

fight me irl
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Kugar
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Kugar »

Jupiter wrote:I had fun yesterday, so don't let us spoil that.
Absolutely - I liked it how we managed to have a *pure* battle and trash talk. Unfortunately I pk'd Deanna though, because when she stumbled back my char didn't untarget her (wasn't my intention ah well), but other than that it went pretty well afaik.

Don't worry, mates. I'll be the cool headed one 8)
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Jupiter
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Jupiter »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRpTjr4L4T4

(We might want to stay on topic now ;D)
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

rakust dorenstkzul wrote:
Jupiter wrote:I had fun yesterday, so don't let us spoil that.

fight me irl
Sounds like something I would say, you should be ashamed. :P
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Mephistopheles »

Djironnyma wrote:I dont want break your heart mephy but yesterday none of us logged in for you or your buddies. Anyway I was surprised how fast you were back in front on Runewick after most of us logged of again.
Sorry I was waiting for my buddies to play so I had fun. Still got about 12 chars out looking for us.

Also.. why are you a cm? Here the forum flaming was done.
Last edited by Mephistopheles on Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jupiter
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Jupiter »

Jupiter wrote:I had fun yesterday, so don't let us spoil that.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Achae Eanstray »

I believe the original question has been answered well.. will lock this topic but if anyone objects or wishes to add something significant feel free to contact me or any CM, GM thanks :D !

Achae
Locked