Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

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StarrySkys
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Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by StarrySkys »

Illarion seems like a really good game so I don't get why it has less than 5 players playing a day. This made me wonder if illarion ever had more than 20 players on it at the same time. I know that I'm new here so I suppose the game had it's prime back in the day when graphics truly didn't matter to the player like it does today. Sometimes the game does feel like a single player which saddens me because I would love to see more lively community. So old tplayers, was there a time when Illarion had it's glory days and was filled with roleplay? You can also tell me your stories that you've experience while playing the game if wished to.
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Morbius
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Morbius »

Hello and welcome.

I'm feeling ranty, so excuse me if I don't make much sense.

Unfortunately Illarion has always had terrible graphics. (which is due to a tiny dev team who work on it in their spare time I believe) I think one of my first thoughts when I first joined was: "Wow, what an ugly game. Why don't I walk smoothly?" But the role play and nagging from a friend who referred me won me over and is what made me stay. I probably joined at the end of Illarion's "prime", (at the end of the "lich wars" which players older than me seem to remember fondly)

The short answer to your question though, is yes. There was a time when there were a lot more players around. In my time I don't think there's really been more than 15 - 20 players online at once though (which is usually because some kind of event hosted by a GM or other players is going down)

Over the years the player base seems to fluctuate for various reasons, be it because there isn't enough support for certain types or RP, people getting frustrated at other players or characters for doing stupid things, impatient players while the devs are working out the kinks in various up dates, or just people want a break some times. (I have had many breaks for many reasons, but I keep coming back ) And the list goes on, I doubt I can accurately summarize every reason why people stop playing, or leave.

Some of my fondest memories were when my character Stefan was an instructor at one of the mage academies - guilds and their leaders changed often then so I can't remember which one it was exactly, but teaching students was fun and the only way to pass on magical knowledge to other players back then. He later joined a guild of bad guys called the Temple and eventually become their leader, got into a lot of dark magic and trouble with several different authorities. Back then magicians were mostly feared and hated because the magic system was broken and OP, or bad role players had somehow obtained runes (the source of magical power) and abused it. The lack of a working magic system is a big reason why I don't play much now.
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Jupiter
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Jupiter »

There was more going on in October to March. We often have phases where a lot is happening and where a lot of people player and then we have phases were t all is a bit slow. We are in such a slow phase right now. I am sure it will change a few weeks again. And yes, during quests a lot of people can be around. 30+ are well possible then.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Fooser »

There's a lack of new people staying. Illarion has trouble retaining new people recently in part because of how people behave. A couple of many examples off the top of my head:

-Staff members arguing with and swearing at players in IRC while multiple newbs were watching.
-I once was teaching a new person parts of the map and game mechanics, only to have the newb followed by a couple pathetic trolls who took them aside in private and spoonfed them their drama BS and instructed them to dislike specific people ... while they were still learning to differentiate between IC and OOC!

This type of behavior is fully endorsed by the upper echelons of the game and partially explains why Illarion has a bad retainage rate.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Q-wert »

Overall, the number of players has been stable since the relaunch of the game in 2013. 30 and 40+ players online at once are not as frequent as they used to in the olden days, but still happen every couple of months. We have a very low influx of new players, most people around are veterans. And as in every game there are people with more and less educated (vocal) opinions on what should be changed and is the reason for the small number of players. Some project their personal gripes with game and community into that.
Personally ;) I am sure technical aspects (account and character creation being in a terrible state, controls needing getting used to, graphics looking vintage) and the lack of advertisement (both resulting in a player influx Nitram called 'as good as none') weighting far heavier than the few quarrels sparked by certain trolls. That and a the vicious circle of a small community spread over three factions being not all too exiting in matters of things going on on a daily basis.

People go to where there is stuff going on. Once more people come and do stuff, more will stay.

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Kamilar
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Kamilar »

It's of personal interest to me to learn that the general activity dropped in April. Beyond that, I would note that a contributing factor to the lackluster interest in Illarion might be in part due to the hostile and accusatory manner that is generally accepted here and evidenced in this very thread as elsewhere. I read nothing here that would entice me to log in and experience it in real time.
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Karrock
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Karrock »

You may feel being attacked on forum. Especially you may feel that your every ideas are refused. New big settlements, independent guilds, or other huge changes I think can't be made. Like my previous idea to create evil town or Fooser's idea to create forth faction. In game are too few players to set those ideas exist. Most of my or other players ideas cannot be added even if we would have 100 players online at same time. Some ideas seems to be great, but after discussion or after notice what other expect we as players must to refuse them. Like in example existing true albarian settlement where other chars would be my char mindless bonds. It will never happen. Perhaps every player has at least one idea which can't be set in game. You consider it like if existing here hostile atmosphere but I ensure you in one game I played before administrators/gamemasters had only one reply "You don't like then don't play". Here I can't agree that exist people who are always hostile to you. On forum we talk and often we take oppositive sides in discussions. Some discussions can be too much emotional. But please don't fake newbies that game is hostiled to player. I don't feel as player that I'm ignored.
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Drakon Gerwulf
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Drakon Gerwulf »

Hi StarrySkys

It also doesn't help that it is summer now and most go on vacations, chores needed to be done outside and people do things outside do to the warmer weather leaving their computers inside (( yes the horror to think of someone doing that :P )). As starling pointed out the number of people dropped when the weather got warmer once the cold weather comes back more will be back playing.

As for the two with issues towards the devs, remember we are not getting paid, get anything special or special treatment for working on the game. If you have issues make copies of the log and send it to Nitram and Vilarion they will handle everything fairly they are the ones with the final word. This is what I would do to report any type of abuse or anything you feel that has been done wrong to you.

Welcome to Illarion StarrySkys.
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Mephistopheles »

Remember when we had 50+ for all that fun a few months ago Fooser?

I'm still trying to understand why that happened hmm... (sarcasm, obviously)
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Mephistopheles »

Devs always seem so pretentious, besides a few who oddly enough are not actually german.

It's always "we put soo much effort in" but yet when all it takes is a small amount of work to drastically increase the player base and even bring more players back (who quit for a reason) all of a sudden it's no longer possible.

People offer to help, people offer their ideas and support, but yet in the end the devs do the work they want to (most likely only benefiting their's or their comrade's playstyles) and keep such a closed mind on the matter.

I've often considered during the good times to join the illarion Ev team and help pay for the server. However, I sincerely hope things will change, I've always loved this game, and thus in part, the community. This bitterness needs an end, the shitty attitudes need correcting and most of all from what I stated in the beginning players make a game, not the dev. There is no game without someone to play it.

Ps: If you haven't noticed everyone has/had respect for the work of the devs. So stop being always being whiny about how underappreciated your work is and help some of us learn to help you, or actually look for what this game needs (MAGIC... I know it's being worked on but damn.. it's been years yo
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Teflon »

Q-wert wrote:I am sure technical aspects (account and character creation being in a terrible state, controls needing getting used to, graphics looking vintage) and the lack of advertisement (both resulting in a player influx Nitram called 'as good as none') weighting far heavier than the few quarrels sparked by certain trolls.
Image
It would need to see how many new players have joined and left the game in comparison to the graph you quote here but I expect the same since it is very normal for any game that players leave after some time for whatever reason. We call this retention in gaming but I have no data on that for Illarion. However, any game relies on new and active players. Despite Illarion aims for occasional players, the core are active players, which are usually new players.
Mephistopheles wrote:Devs always seem so pretentious, besides a few who oddly enough are not actually german.
Could you please explain what you mean by that or is it just a stupid prejudice and stereotype of German that you use? Please stop that, thanks!
Mephistopheles wrote: It's always "we put soo much effort in" but yet when all it takes is a small amount of work to drastically increase the player base and even bring more players back (who quit for a reason) all of a sudden it's no longer possible.

People offer to help, people offer their ideas and support, but yet in the end the devs do the work they want to (most likely only benefiting their's or their comrade's playstyles) and keep such a closed mind on the matter.

I've often considered during the good times to join the illarion Ev team and help pay for the server. However, I sincerely hope things will change, I've always loved this game, and thus in part, the community. This bitterness needs an end, the shitty attitudes need correcting and most of all from what I stated in the beginning players make a game, not the dev. There is no game without someone to play it.

Ps: If you haven't noticed everyone has/had respect for the work of the devs. So stop being always being whiny about how underappreciated your work is and help some of us learn to help you, or actually look for what this game needs (MAGIC... I know it's being worked on but damn.. it's been years yo
I also want to add the following here. Please don't forget, devs, gms & cms are doing here volunteer work. None of them receives any payment or other benefits. They all use their spare time when they are dealing with issues of players or the development of the game. Has anyone ever thought about what it means for someone who volunteers, works or studies at least 8h a day, comes home and has to deal with complaints (not talking about constructive critique)? How much that kills their motivation?
If players are not satisfied with the volunteer work of these volunteers, there is only one thing they can do: Volunteer themselves and help to improve the game instead of whining and complaining! Saying that they don't know how to help is just a poor excuse in my opinion! Everyone of the dev team had to learn scripting and mapping themselves. They have received help but still, they had to learn everything by themselves. It might not that easy for everyone, I will give you that, but anyone can learn it!
Furthermore, it should be also understandable that people tend to use these skill for their own interests first, although they have done many other things that isn't so much fun. Or does anyone think it is a super exciting activity, to QA all NPC and bring them on a similar level for instance? Yes, they have done such "boring" things for you and for free!
True, magic has taken far too much time but how can anyone blame volunteers for that? There are so many other things going on in the life of devs, gms and cms. Moving, internet problems, work, private issues, etc. Just myself as an example. I will be traveling for some months pretty soon. Shall I skip such opportunity just because someone misses magic? No, you have no right to demand that! Since no one can know all the background of each volunteer here, it is just ridiculous to bring up such assumptions as they would not be interested to improve the game. If anyone thinks it just "takes a small amount of work", please show us how to implement it without any effort. If a gm or dev tells you, it takes more than you believe, it is very likely that it takes more time and effort than you think. You just don't know and don't think anyone avoids doing something because they might have an issue with you.
So either come up with constructive ideas or help to develop the game or just stop killing the motivation of those who help at least!
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Morbius
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Morbius »

Now that we're all done hating each other and giving this innocent new player absolutely no reason to stick around...

Hear me out:

Has anyone ever actually considered hiring game developers from over seas? Outsourcing to such countries like the Philippines where due to the exchange rate their labor and time costs next to nothing by our standards, but are worth a small fortune by theirs? There are countless secure websites that make it quick and easy to do this. I would pay invest in that, maybe others would too?
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Mephistopheles »

Keep deluding yourselves.. "player's leave after some time"

You have hardly any new players, and your old ones are vanishing. Obvious facts.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Teflon »

Yeap, that's part of the lifecycle of any product. At some point, your customer/player will move on to the next product. The reasons are manyfold but it is undeniable that it will happen at some point regardless how high the retention is.
Q-wert's and I only pointed in regard to the drop that we were not able to compensate leaving players with new players. The graph doesn’t show the retention unfortunately. It could easily be that the retention is stable but we were not able to acquire new players as much as before the drop. As said, we don't have the data to prove that but it would be necessary to know for the discussion how retention and acquisition have developed. Nobody denies that we have an issue if retention or/and acquisition dropped. The graph just doesn’t show which of both is the main cause. But since it was said that the numbers of installs and retention of new players is low, it is more likely that the issue is with acquisition rather than with retention itself. In gaming, it is very unlikely that this can be fixed with increasing the retention of existing players. That would require more content but since our main content is RP and RP from new players stays out, it is more difficult to achieve. Is it more understandable what I meant now?

If I sounded harsh, I appologize for that. And no, the society hasn't consider that and I am not sure if this wanted or even possible.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Nitram »

Morbius wrote:Has anyone ever actually considered hiring game developers from over seas?
No matter how little compensation a developer wants. The society of Illarion can't effort it. We are pretty deep into the red numbers this year, only for maintaining the server. That is nothing to worry about, because we have sufficient funds to keep the server running for a couple of years even if the income drops to zero, but it doesn't allow us any major additional expenses like hiring developers.
Mephistopheles wrote:Keep deluding yourselves.. "player's leave after some time"
This is not a delusion. That is just how it is. The time frame is different for everyone. Sometimes it's days, sometimes months, sometimes years, sometimes decades. But at some point a player will leave, no matter the reason. That isn't the problem… well it is a problem if our game causes all players to run for the hills, but the general fact that everyone will leave at some point is not.

The main issue here is that we do not have enough new players. Currently around 10 new accounts are created per day. That may sound like quite something, but it is actually pretty low. Most of them never activate their account. Some never create a character. Those groups taken away we are down to like 1 or 2 per day. Now one of them never logs in. Half of the remaining one never moves from it's first location and logs out and never in again right away. So we are done to something about 0.5 per day. The remaining ones mostly get stuck on noobia. The few who make it out rarely stay more then a couple of hours on the main map of the game before they disappear for good. We can't do much against the people who log in, see that the game looks ugly and leave again. There will always be a percentage of players who do that. The main issues for the new players right now is that it is not difficult and unclear how to get into the game.

I think those are the main reasons why we don't get new players. To handle this issue I started to implement the account system directly in the game client. But progress is slow since I do not have a lot of time to do that. We are fully aware that this is only one of multiple issues, but we can't handle all at once.

Now regarding the established player base. I know that some players left and they were very vocal about it. Such events always sound like a load of players are just leaving, but actually it is not that bad. The records show that there are usually 0 to 4 players flagged as inactive each day and the same range of players is flagged as returning. Approximately. This means that the current player base it rather stagnates pretty much at 75 to 80 active players. Those aren't good numbers, but the player base is not dropping rapidly. So we are basically at a state where players aren't really happy, but all hope is not lost.

With that being said: We will always try to adapt to the ideas of the players, but we will not tear down the basic principles we established when performing the VBU. Those principles were not decided on a whim, but with very careful consideration by the entirety of the staff and a portion of the players supporting and testing the update back then. So things like killing all the town leaders and leaving the cities to chaos, adding 20 new factions and so on, will not happen. Also all changes have to be put in relation of effort and gain. Some ideas may seem basic and simple, but cause so many man-hours of work, that we just can't realise them. The best example for that is: Make the client 3D!!!!111 :wink:

Now in the last couple of months we had some of those ranting posts that did not really contained any new ideas and basically just existed so one or two players could give voice to their frustration, what ever the cause of the frustration. I do understand why those topics appear, but please understand that the only thing they really do is drive away more people, because they think all goes to shit and kill the motivation of the staff members, because they think their work is for nothing.

In the end I got to say: We (the staff) read and consider all your suggestions how to improve the game and will support and idea you have. How ever when supporting your characters there is a fine line between supporting a character and pushing a character. That line must not be crossed to avoid that other players don't get (rightfully) jealous. When considering your ideas we will always have to consider the implications of your idea, the effort it will take to implement it and whether or not the idea violates the basic concepts of Illarion.
We will not turn Illarion back to what it was right before the VBU. A place of chaos that really drove away the players because it was just annoying.

Best regards,
Nitram
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Kamilar
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Kamilar »

Since it's you, just a thought on new accounts...

Instead of spawning them in Noobia, maybe skip that part and have them spawn in whichever area is busiest at the time of log in if that possibility exists. The details of faction placement could be taken care of with a pop-up dialogue box like the one that offers players to portal to the new players or a pedestal or something. In the meantime, they could be outlaws though I never favored that designation as it carries quite a sinister connotation in English. Maybe "unaligned" or "factionless" or something along those lines would be more palatable to new players who find themselves in that category. It might be good to include something about the escalating cost of switching factions too. That isn't clear currently and is more word-of-mouth information which can be irritating.

Anyway, if it's possible, extending that option to all accounts would be good too so that players could have a better chance of finding one another each time they logged in if they wanted. That might help solve the problem of the difficulty in finding people to RP with particularly with such a large map and so few people on it.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Sakaala Vyshaan »

Hello everyone! I am the original poster. But I would like to add in that I think Illarion is a beautiful game. It isn't necessary as ugly as some might think it out to be. The graphics remind me of baldur's gate and icewind dale. Two vary successful games. Even other games like stardew valley on steam was on of the biggest selling games the first week it came out. Even topping fallout 4. The game is pixelated but still maintains a huge fan base with loads of artwork on tumblr. I say once you've done working out the bugs in the game and improved the combat system then you should try to advertise the game on steam or to the community that still has that nostalgia for that type of gameplay.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Salathe »

When I started playing in 2002, there were typically about 20 players online on average. This was a much different time though, Runescape/Ultima Shards were absurdly popular and this let people know that "mom and pop" games were fun. Compared to today where not many look for small indie multiplayer games, I think this is a primary reason the game grows so slowly. There were a number of minor events (player/staff controversy) that were very vocal and lead to a few people leaving, I don't think there was really any particular event that lead to a mass exodus. Around 2004 there was an application process where the staff had to approve new players before they could play. This was the first major hinderance to growth because most people come here to try the game out out of mild interest and temporary boredom. It was eventually realized this process was a failure and really hurt the game and it was done away with. There was alot of struggle to get the game back to the 20-30 online average. There are some game aspects I strongly felt were counter intuitive to getting people ingame. There was a magic system around 2006 where only players could teach other players magic. Hundreds of people came to the forums to apply to be a magic pupil, but similar to the application process, it was lengthy and people that couldnt participate just never played. The idea that the more you do in the game, the less you learn, is absurdly counter intuitive to getting people ingame. It's a hope to "balance" those that want to play the game, and those that want to roleplay. This is one of the reasons I left (besides the fact I'm extremely flaky...) since I had to spend hours in game roleplaying to actually train my character. The issue here is that there weren't many people online for me roleplay with, I really had to force it and it felt like work, and when I only have a few hours a night to game, I want to actually accomplish something and have fun, not force myself to roleplay with random people.

This might seem critical, but I feel the primary reason that this game has trouble attracting and retaining people is that it really doesn't have much to show in progress since I started 14 years ago. The map is way better, the game looks nicer, and it's gone some good QOL addtions, But combat is essentially the exact same as when i started 14 years ago. Target a player, stand next to them and watch until someone is dead. The fundamentals have not changed a bit in any way. Sure we have more gear, some more skills, but these added details/complexities don't really make the game more interesting or fun. You can still make everything from crafting so there isn't really much of reason to go out and explore or dungeon crawl, I remember complaining about this my first week in game after i mastered blacksmithing and had the best gear. Each craft has a primary resource that you have to farm at both lvl 1 and lvl 100, meaning for months you are going to the same spot and grinding out the same thing. Crafting has added steps over the years, and had some great interface achievements, but still just "Gather 10,000 of this resource and make this thing 1,000 times". The fundamentals in crafting again really haven't changed. Magic arguably was very improved, except that only a few people got to participate in it, and when I last played it wasnt available at all.

I feel like this game just goes in circles of trying to perfectly re-balance everything rather than actually adding new functions and features that players can dive into and spend time on. I'm legitimately having trouble pointing to a gameplay feature besides alchemy that didn't exist in game 14 years ago. And I still can't believe that there is a punishment for players spending alot of time on leveling up. The easiest way to get people to log off is to make things harder for them the longer they put effort into something, this really eats at people over time. I think what really drove me away was when I returned to the game to try and help the staff, I saw that the major development goals were again a rebalance/overhaul of crafting and gathering that didn't involve anything new. It was really upsetting to witness yet another rebalance of something that may be a little off, but was perfectly functional. I still love Illarion, it really is a special game, but I think if it is going to succeed, it needs to be a game that is fun to play even if people aren't online, and a game thats fun to play even if it wasn't a roleplaying game. Unfortunately, I don't think there's ever really been a time in this game's history that the previous sentence was true.

If anyone remembers that artifact feature I was pushing so hard for 3 years ago, I still have the google doc of all Flux's and my work.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Morbius »

And I still can't believe that there is a punishment for players spending alot of time on leveling up. The easiest way to get people to log off is to make things harder for them the longer they put effort into something, this really eats at people over time.
This. Why punish people for actually playing the game? Why not reward people for role playing instead of punishing them for skilling? I have never understood the logic behind this. As someone who can only really log in when there are very few to no players online... this really get to me, and ultimately prevents me from playing much if at all, or creating new character and skill them up.
I still love Illarion, it really is a special game, but I think if it is going to succeed, it needs to be a game that is fun to play even if people aren't online, and a game thats fun to play even if it wasn't a roleplaying game.
And this. I am fairly certain there is a msg somewhere when there are zero players online saying something to the effect of: "There is no one playing at the moment, but if one plays, soon others will follow!" That fact that I have seen that msg at all is somewhat tragic. I feel like if the game was more enjoyable to play by yourself like you suggested... then there would be more people online doing there own thing, then people would run into actual players more often and therefor role play more.

You really hit the mark with these two points for me personally, Salathe.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Jupiter »

Why punish people for actually playing the game? Why not reward people for role playing instead of punishing them for skilling?
They are not punished. If you compare five hours of fighting with one hour of fighting and four hours of roleplay, the skill amount that is learned is about the same. How is that punishing anyone? Of course, the one fighting five hours will have higher repair costs - but also more loot. If there are certain details with this system that are not working, those need to be addressed, but saying that they are just punished for skilling is very misguiding if not just wrong. I can understand that it might feel this way. However, that is then a problem of transporting the effect of the system to the minds and hearts of the players rather than a bug in the system itself.

Illarion is supposed to be about roleplaying. If we would just remove the effect that you learn less for every "learn action" we do, we will benefit those who do not roleplay at lot and just mindlessly powergame until they can beat up everyone else ingame who actually ropleays and not just spends their time skilling. I assume that you agree with that since you proposed to rewarding role playing instead. Now a remark on that.
First, it is of course a bit misleading to say that the current system takes into considerations the time during which you learn and the time during which you roleplay. Technically, it is the time you learn and the time you do not learn. The second can be roleplay but it can also be standing somewhere in the corner, moving every few minutes. (That is one of those detail problems I was talking about above.) But why is that this way? Simple: We cannot measure roleplay. Don't even try to come up with a way how to. It is just not doable. It has been proposed to count the spoken text by players and take that as an indicator. This is, of course, not the solution. We cannot differ between roleplaying and "vnghthrgonbw", or "hwbizhfwidubdi". If you now think we could come up with a rule that prevents such behaviour, then I have to say that is bad as well. A fundamental system as learning should work without the GMs hunting those that dare to spam in order to learn. We would end up with a lot of questionable cases anyway, where someone says something meaningful every few minutes but is still alone in his house. In the same line of reasoning, GMs gifts as rewards for roleplaying are also not an option. The job of Gms is something else, they cannot look over everyone and we would most certainly end up having complaints about alleged favourism.
Furthermore, what kind of benefit should those roleplaying get? It would need to be something worthy that makes up for some not becoming such a strong fighter right away as someone just doing mindless fighting all the time. Again: Something without GM help.

To sum it up:
How would you mesaure roleplay without human resources doing that work and how would you reward it?

PS:
To me skilling is way easier than preVBU. Sometimes it is so easy that it bores me and I wonder if Illarion has become too easy.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Can you explain why you feel that this game punishes certain ways of playing? As written above, it is important for us to understand how features are perceived. All numbers don't matter if the players feel differently to what is reality.
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Morbius
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Morbius »

I'm quite tired, so excuse any rambling that may follow:
Jupiter wrote:
Why punish people for actually playing the game? Why not reward people for role playing instead of punishing them for skilling?
They are not punished. If you compare five hours of fighting with one hour of fighting and four hours of roleplay, the skill amount that is learned is about the same. How is that punishing anyone?
Estralis Seborian wrote:Can you explain why you feel that this game punishes certain ways of playing? As written above, it is important for us to understand how features are perceived. All numbers don't matter if the players feel differently to what is reality.
To me, it is punishment when instead of being rewarded with more skill for more time, you are rewarded with less. Why would I want to play a game where the more I play, the less I am rewarded? Of course, I understand that the game is all about role playing, (that's why I'm still here) and that the idea of this skill cap is to encourage people to role play more and power game less... but it doesn't work when there are no players. Which is most if not all of the time that I am able to get in game, as I live within the time zone GMT +10. So I do understand the theory, but it just doesn't work for me personally even if some players love it.

I am a very casual player now. There was a proposal a while ago for players creating ''quest characters'' to encourage more casual role players to get involved, but it was sadly ignored, or pushed aside for "more important development choices" - but I would have liked it very much.
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S'rrt
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by S'rrt »

What a silly question in the topic title. Ofcourse there has been more than 10 players, I'm pretty sure that happens every time there's an all-involving quest. Certain points of year are also more active than others, leaving the average amount of players online pretty much at 10.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Uhuru »

Morbius wrote:I'm quite tired, so excuse any rambling that may follow:
Jupiter wrote:
Why punish people for actually playing the game? Why not reward people for role playing instead of punishing them for skilling?
They are not punished. If you compare five hours of fighting with one hour of fighting and four hours of roleplay, the skill amount that is learned is about the same. How is that punishing anyone?
Estralis Seborian wrote:Can you explain why you feel that this game punishes certain ways of playing? As written above, it is important for us to understand how features are perceived. All numbers don't matter if the players feel differently to what is reality.
To me, it is punishment when instead of being rewarded with more skill for more time, you are rewarded with less. Why would I want to play a game where the more I play, the less I am rewarded? Of course, I understand that the game is all about role playing, (that's why I'm still here) and that the idea of this skill cap is to encourage people to role play more and power game less... but it doesn't work when there are no players. Which is most if not all of the time that I am able to get in game, as I live within the time zone GMT +10. So I do understand the theory, but it just doesn't work for me personally even if some players love it.

I am a very casual player now. There was a proposal a while ago for players creating ''quest characters'' to encourage more casual role players to get involved, but it was sadly ignored, or pushed aside for "more important development choices" - but I would have liked it very much.
To me, the real problem is that it takes far too long for what you call 'skill cap' to reduce while RPing. It's too slow. Having to RP for days just so a person can once again see skills improving again is where the problem lies. But once the 'skill cap' gets too high, it's nearly impossible to recover because everything a new character touches or does forces them to learn. The only way they don't learn is to sit and do nothing. To me, this is forcing RP in a world where 1) there are very few people to interact with and 2) very few people my new characters may wish to interact with, and 3) nearly no people my new character should interact with and stay in character, all especially for days on end, assuming I want to lower this cap down low enough to get skill gain to a place that I can see it moving again. Forced RP isn't good for the game or for growing the community. If people don't want to RP, they really shouldn't have to do so.

And to Jupiter, yes, a fighter does gather loot, but can't carry it all and it barely comes close to covering the costs of armor repairs, let alone upgrades and food costs. It's all really bad, forcing fighters to craft for enough coin to do all that is required, which in turn puts learning points in the wrong place.

Just my observations.

Until a new character has a few skills capped, there is no hope for getting this to reduce and that can take a while. Are people staying long enough to see this? In fighters, capping fighting skills is quite difficult. This is easier in our crafters, but again, most new PO's I have seen come in as fighters.

This whole balance is quite a difficult thing.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Morbius wrote:To me, it is punishment when instead of being rewarded with more skill for more time, you are rewarded with less.
This is what I am interested in. What makes you believe this is true? Do you compare with different characters or players, do you track the skill progress somehow or is it a "feeling"? Does the game show any information that encourages you to believe this?

The truth is the exact opposite of what you write ;-). So there must be something wrong with how the skill progress is perceived.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Vern Kron »

Perception and reality are different, however, in many situations perception is reality until proven false.

tl:dr
Skilling no matter if you rp or grind all the hours, yields the same experience amounts, which leads to frustration for those who skill because it feels like their efforts are invalid. Further, previous decisions on the staff seem to point to using skills is not a roleplay activity, but a separate thing, and is implied as well by the mc system. All of the information on the matter being separated from the players, (aside from looking at code), can easily cause tension, particularly the change to the one way to have monitored mc previously, which actually felt like a direct assault on a number of players, even if it was done for a good purpose. Finally, the system in and of itself is most likely fine, but because of a lack of transparency and human nature, people are inclined to believe the worst: that the mc system is a dumb system designed to make players sit around a campfire and chat about things, rather than playing a game.


A good deal of this perception is based on how people pre-vbu saw the game working, and tendencies of the staff.

People who grinded through the levels of skilling too fast, were to be punished.
The mental capacity system was, as it appeared, entirely designed to inform and function to the point that 'You have learned/skilled enough. Now go roleplay.'

Now we have a different system in place, one that divides time in: skill gain vs non-skill gain.

The thing that we struggle with is intent, and understanding of how roleplay occurs.

As a matter of interest: For two months, aside from the rare needed interactions, I worked on level 99-100 goldsmithing.
I would play for two weeks, and make 20 icebirds, and intentionally avoided using skills unless absolutely needed, aside from skills that were already maxed out and could no longer impact mc.
I made 95 charms of the icebird, and 10 merinium daggers.
I finally got the skill up, when I got my characters dexterity risen far above normal capabilities, through potions and food bonuses.

While this may not be the intent of the system, it feels it is the most effective one. I could have spent those two months grinding through it, but that would have become increasingly depressing, to the point I would just quit. When a player sees no result or improvement from an action, but are informed they just need to keep trying, eventually it wears on them.

I do not think the problem is in the system itself exactly, nor the amount of skilling required.
Rather, it is frustrating to be intentionally kept in the dark on where and how progress is developing.

It is also frustrating to feel like we are not encouraged to roleplay and use skills at the same time, which is what the system implies. Although there are plenty of people who have been seen doing shadier tactics for lowering mc, the only way mc lowers is by not using skills.

So if I was wanting to focus primarily on only goldsmithing, without exception, I could not:

Pick fruit from trees, because that would raise mc. (But I had passed the skilling point on trees so it was fine)
Gather materials from mining, because that would raise mc. (But I had maxed mining so it was ok)
Melt down the ore to use in the goldsmithing. (Because that is tied to smithing, and supposedly raises mc).
Defend myself from the monsters generated from the gathering action. (Fighting is tied to atleast two if not three different skills, so it is a major no.)
Walk beyond the hedges of Galmair, go beyond the forest of Runewick, or go at all to Cadomyr because they are constantly under invasion. Too many monsters, too much danger.
Earn money through any other use of skill, because obviously using skills will increase mc, and if I am being true to the cause, I cannot earn money.
Get any form of food because: All food is tied to one of three things, coin, charity, or skilling.

However, all that above is perceived truth. As an older player, I could do a lot more with my time because some of my skills were maxed.

The game in this regard does not really 'encourage' roleplay, it simply encourages 'not using skills', as Jupiter addressed above.
The trouble with that mentality is that it implies that using skills is, in and of itself, not roleplay. And that I think is where people get frustrated. Roleplay, as defined by the game engine, is rather dull, except in specific situations. It's why when I played a chancellor during that time period, I had scheduled so many meetings. Because otherwise, the game was boring. I hate to say it, but it just was.

The fact that we are not able to monitor or check our mc is also frustrating, and implies further that we are expected to sit down and not use skills, except for rare occasions.

I am not sure what sort of tool could be created, but an npc that informs you: "Oh, you seem well rested! You look like you would be learning at 150% capacity!" Because the character has super low MC, or in the mid/normal range: "Oh, you look like you are having a normal day. You would learn at 100% capacity." Because the character is in the usual level of mc. Or when a person's mc is very high: "Oh dear, you should get some rest. Your learning is at 50% capacity."

And those numbers being actually accurate ( like 57%, or 86%) and not just those example percentages, and you pay the npc to inform you.

What would also be interesting to see is the stats of most character's mc, and new players who didn't return, and other such things. I bet there would be a lot of interesting information.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Q-wert »

As everyone seems intent of putting their opinion here: I like the learning system.

I can do whatever I please and my character learns the same amount of skill no matter what, without forcing him to live in the deepest levels of the graveyard to gain decent combat skills. Low skills come fast, high skills take dedication to raise. I raised my current primary character to 100 in every combat skill (including wrestling) over the course of about a year with some little headstart from pre-vbu-times and genuinely haven't experienced the whole process to have been punishing. Its been well easier and pleasing than raising combat skill in pre-vbu times, actually.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Teflon »

Vern Kron wrote: The fact that we are not able to monitor or check our mc is also frustrating, and implies further that we are expected to sit down and not use skills, except for rare occasions.
The thing with the MC is that it would not change anything if you know the MC or not. The MC adjusts to your style of playing. You wouldn't learn faster or slower. You always learn as fast or slow as the Devs want you to learn. You can therefore click 10000000 times or just 1 time in a given time. All you need to do is playing the game but it doesn't matter how.
That some players tried to trick the system by being online but not actual playing at all, is known. Actually, the only way to get a low MC while not really playing is only by using some scripts that play instead of you. This is bad habit or actually cheating and abusing the system and against the rules. We are not going to hunt people down for it (We have better things to do) but if we catch someone, they might not enjoy it.
In other words, just forget about the MC. Of course, it is frustrating if you try to change something that will not bring any effect. It is a waste of time and effort to acquire a lower MC. You will not achieve your skill faster. As said, the only thing that matters is the time you spend playing the game.

I threw in here for discussion an idea about a timer that will would show you how much more time you would have to play in order to get the next skill gain. Maybe this will help players who are interested in skilling their chars:
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 94&t=40901

The actual issue is, imo, that the current system sets into stones how much time you have to play in order to get a maxed skilled player. Now it happens from time to time that a player has a rp-idea, which requires to have a char with a certain skill. While in the old system, you could quickly achieve this skill when you spent some hard clicking-work in a short period, this is not supported in the new system any longer. You are not able to speed things up. It would always take the time the Devs want you to spend on it. No idea how, but I am wondering if there could be a way that would support a faster skilling in such cases.
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Re: Was there a time when Illarion had more than 10 players

Post by Teflon »

Another point jumps to my eyes and could be an issue but was never really mentioned in a way I would have recognized it.
If I am not wrong (Estralis/Jupiter, please correct me if so), the MC is a global value, right? The same MC value applies for for all skills. Whether you skill farming or mining, the same MC raises. So, the more different skills you train, the more time it takes (which makes sense), the slower is the perceived skill gain. It doesn't mean that it necessarily takes more time to skill multiple skills at the same time, right?
For instance: The time to max skill A and skill B at the same time is the same time as if I would max skill A first and then skill B, although skill A might advance faster than B, right?

What would happen if we have for each skill an individual MC? Does that change/affect anything?
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