Forum Tone / Rants

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Damien
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Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Damien »

Hello everyone.

We all agree that illarion's main problem comes down to the following :

Not enough players.
Summary, short: Not enough players to recruit new programmers and new gamemasters from that speak both languagues, not enough players to fill the game map and towns, not enough players to form new guilds, etc.
All in all, things that the staff wanted to be done - for example, features like in-System Guild support, a magic system, a priest system and any other stuff like those - need manpower.


There are some players who generally complain about a lot of things, even some who called other players to "vote with their feet" (=to leave illarion).
Instead of sending complaints to the right persons, those complaining cause others to join in the whining.
When looking into the illarion forums, the first two or three topics that spring to your eyes are complaints and rants.

It only worsens the community atmosphere and it will not convince new players to stay, on the contrary, it will cause other players to leave.

This type of behaviour is very, very contra-productive. It has already caused game development to slow down alot, and it WILL cause the whole illarion game to die if it continues even a little bit longer.

Concerning that "not enough people" is the main problem, "shooing away people" should be avoided. It may very well be the main cause of the problem.

Please think about that. Twice.
Both staff, forum moderators and especially those who complain.
As far as i see it, there is no other way than to remove such topics from the boards and simply discuss their theme internally instead.
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Tyan Masines »

While I generally do not look favourably on the complain topics as well, you overreact. They are not the main problem. And quite frankly, all these "stop complaining" posts are just as annoying as all the "complaining" posts are.

But I agree that we do not need yet another topic with titles like "Really?" or anything, it has been tiresome. Just a this topic here is now.



Keep in mind that many new players never reach the forum when they decide to quit. They quit before that. If you want to emphasize the "important" bits of the forum, put a bigger and easier to find link on the homepage leading to the technical / newbie forum (they are used in a proper way) and put the Roleplay Forums over the OOC-Forums in the board order.
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Damien »

We all have seen people check the forums for help and never be seen again, right ?
I see the effect of these posts in myself: I make a new character, play a bit, have some fun, check the forums, well - and i think "I don't need that childish mess again", and then i don't log in for months.
So no need to talk it down, i bet many others think and act likewise. And we DON't need examples for that in the topic.

The complaining posts are tiring, the stop comnplaining posts as well, but they are a follow-up of the first. For the whole to vanish from the boards in the long run, the way things are complained about has to change.
Since some players do not see themselves in responsibility for what they are posting, and for what effect it has on the community, something has to be done about it.
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Achae Eanstray
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Tyan Masines wrote:....If you want to emphasize the "important" bits of the forum, put a bigger and easier to find link on the homepage leading to the technical / newbie forum (they are used in a proper way) and put the Roleplay Forums over the OOC-Forums in the board order.
This is an interesting idea... most will start from the top as new players. Show them the best first?

I played another game where disagreements...even thoughtful ones weren't allowed on the forum at all. People were permanently banned from the game for any kind of negative post or discussion and this was the rules. As long as there is no player-player flaming I think as the Code of Conduct says, we attempt to get along, are respectful and lenient however it doesn't mean we all will agree.

I'll enjoy hearing the differing views but would also like to remind people we DO have a Proposal Board for things you might like to see changed, yet just because you wish that change, may not mean it will happen and there should be some acceptance of that also. Even small, this is really a great community of players.
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Kamilar
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Kamilar »

Damien wrote:Instead of sending complaints to the right persons, those complaining cause others to join in the whining....As far as i see it, there is no other way than to remove such topics from the boards and simply discuss their theme internally instead.
For my part, I see the forums as a last resort. Unfortunately, following the proper avenues for getting issues addressed simply doesn't work. Problems are left to fester for months or years. Taking that final option away from players whose problems have been overlooked or ignored is probably not going to help.

Could the tone be better? Sure. But realistically what are the options? Ultimately the only way to get a problem addressed is to raise holy hell over it. Bickering is de rigeur these days on the forums because that's tremendously frustrating.

The tone on the forums isn't the problem. It's a symptom.
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Karrock
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Karrock »

Complaining is not a problem, most "problem" is in this that it's not a 3d hack n' slash game, but game 2d game which require rp.
Most new players see this after start and quit. They are not interested in weeping on forum because they don't play so much to face with our "weeping".
What I also perhaps do. Meen "weeping". My proposition is promoting this game not only in webs with games but more on forums with fascination of middleages or chivalry or something like this. I try to promote on my personal facebook. Besides there are many shards of Ultima Online what take players.
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Damien »

Kamilar wrote: The tone on the forums isn't the problem. It's a symptom.
Yeah, i thougt so too, for a while. But then took a second thought.
Of course feedback is necessary. However, there is a difference between "good constructive feedback" and "childish or senseless whining / ranting".
And the "raising hell" some people do makes it even worse.
Especially when it's done over small matters or because some ingame, between-characters-conflict went OOC again. Reading stuff like that really ruins my own mood. Even though, or perhaps because, i have nothing to do with any of the things mentioned there. In fact i was about to log into my dwarf character, which i started logging into recently after a few months of absence, then read around on the forums, and suddenly thinking of the game feels bad again, hence no motivation to log in.
I come to the conclusion that someone new coming in, looking at the boards for help or to find players, finding that stuff, will most likely leave with a very bad impression from the community.

So, i read that one topic where someone said we players had to "vote with our feet" and some others really agreed to that. That kinda was an eye-opener. Of course those guys can play "goodbye Galim"- the game where someone threatens to leave and still plays on. But even if noone leaves, keep in mind how bad such posts looks for every new person coming in - or every old player checking back.
And that's not only for the more mature ones (who might think: "childish game!" and leave), but especially for less mature ones (who might get agitated from the talk alone).

That all leaves a very bad picture of the community. Take a step back, browse the topics, check what impression you would have if you didn't know this community already, and see for yourself !
And perhaps think about what you can do to make things a little better.

@Karrock: Yeah, that kind of promotion might actually work. However players of UO shards might be used to more features. Some friends of mine checked illarion out and went back to playing UO because here they have no horses or pets and cannot decorate their own house. Laughable, but still an argument considering goals people have as players.
LucyP
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by LucyP »

I tend to agree. If it isn't good constructive feedback, which includes suggestions on how to "fix" things, then don't bother posting it. Step back and examine yourself first. What is your mood as you are writing. If you are upset or angry, frustrated, then don't bother posting even if you think you have suggestions on how to "fix" things. Give it a few day's thought and then try to write it out when you are in a more positive mood.

Because, reading the boards is growing into a huge chore instead of a fun thing to do.

Remember, the goal is to improve the game... not keep bringing it down. And the mood of the players is important.

:P
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Kamilar
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Kamilar »

I'm sorry but everyone is responsible for themselves. If reading the forums destroys your personal motivation, don't read them. Not logging in your character is no one's fault but your own. Placing blame just looks like a more elaborate version of 'goodbye Galim.'

I'm also sorry that the staff is small and overwhelmed and not that interested in some of the problems but sweeping issues under the rug doesn't make them go away.

One game I play has a separate subforum called 'Rants' where the gloves come off and players can vent about things. I'll tell you what, not that many rants are actually about the game. Most people vent about garbage from their personal lives and the few that bring the game to the rant forum are quickly corrected by the community. The chronic crybabies are easy to spot and the community corrects that too. Maybe something to consider while the forums are being talked about.

I know I posted it someplace else but as long as we're talking about the forums, the RP forums could do with a re-work too. The one-size-fits-all RP forum I would say has been unsuccessful. The forum RP has generally suffered post VBU and I think some of the old RP forums should be revisited.

If the opinion of the world at-large is a concern for Illarion's forums, maybe make only some of them viewable to people that don't have forum accounts/game accounts?
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Azure Lynch
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Azure Lynch »

I would have to agree. I have written things in anger and then apologize cause it is not helpful. The structure of forums should maybe be like this.

View to all
Rp
View to account only
Community
Complaints./rants.

Any complaint and rants not in the complaint and rant forum should be moved or deleted immediately. And said person be warned. After awhile if said person don't listen then place on rp only boards. If the post continues there then banned or veiw only but can't post.
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Azure Lynch wrote:I would have to agree. I have written things in anger and then apologize cause it is not helpful. The structure of forums should maybe be like this.

View to all
Rp
View to account only
Community
Complaints./rants.

Any complaint and rants not in the complaint and rant forum should be moved or deleted immediately. And said person be warned. After awhile if said person don't listen then place on rp only boards. If the post continues there then banned or veiw only but can't post.
Agree.
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Pyrrho
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Pyrrho »

Before I begin, I wish to underline that I understand and appreciate that Illarion is free to play, developed for free, and I realize this is does require a lot of dedication.

If the goal of Illarion was to grow a player base that was dedicated to roleplaying then its decisions do not seem to be aligned. I do not see how one can play the game without already being familiar with the map, culture, and skill system. Let alone, if I don't want to play a fighter, what options do I have? I feel decisions led to this point. Moreso, because this is a passion project from both administration and development, this thread is indicative of the attitude towards criticisms. I feel like trying to temper the issue by saying it "harshing" the community's buzz, especially in a small community that is growing smaller, seems to miss the point of the complaint. Worse yet, the implication (not necessarily on this thread, but in general) the game is meant to be "this" and if you don't like it, then another game may be better. At some point, when the player base is so small, the game you are trying to create may only be serving an abstract purpose.

Overall, as a older player who hasn't played in years, I know the culture. The reason I don't play often isn't because of that. I don't play because when I enter the game, I can't find anything I want to do. Maybe that means the game isn't for me, but who and how many is it for must be addressed.
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Most of us that play regularly have been doing so for many years. The developers and staff most likely much longer. I personally have been playing for nine years and consider myself as one of the newer players. So, maybe a look does need to be done, to see what the now players want. I still remember fondly the older games, I got into D&D in 1983. After many years of pen and paper, damn! I can do this on a computer too! This is why Illarion speaks to me. It is the continuation of the old games I loved. But even though I have got my son to love this game too, he doesn't love it for the same reasons I do.And his friends just cant see why he even bothers. He does for a connection to me more than the game itself. Maybe, we need to look at what the now youth want in a game AND listen to them. I really want this game to survive, but I am 50 yrs old, not the demographic of the future.
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Karrock
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Karrock »

Hew Keenaxe wrote: I still remember fondly the older games, I got into D&D in 1983. After many years of pen and paper, damn! I can do this on a computer too! This is why Illarion speaks to me. It is the continuation of the old games I loved.
Yes. There is a pyramid of things every player must pass that get like this game. I personally played before common rp muds (games without graphics) in my language (ultima online never catched my interest) where I been learning what means rp and I was there much noob. Most time which I spent here I near completely did not understand english (and still I can't speak in german), but I had dream that someday I will start playing how I want, not be just a char who ingores everyone and everything because of lacks of language. I still play with dictionary. And Illarion gives me possibility to advance my level of english what I always point while I'm trying to promote games around friends.

So if someone who uses dictionary more than me reading this, just remember there is no excuse that you can't play because you don't understand language so much. You will learn, and language in our modern times is most important. And I'm still bad in english.
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Jupiter
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Jupiter »

My opinion as a dev: I sometimes just ignore certain topics and posts. Why? Because the tone is too hostile for my taste. I am not willing to read posts where the general attitude seems to be "I know the truth, I am right. You are wrong and the staff members are probably satanists."
That this comes often from the same persons over and over again does not help the situation either. I always try to be open and listen to the opinions of players. I very much like to get feedback. Talk to me in the IRC chat or send me a PM, I will care to answer your questions and listen to your concerns. But I don't have the time nor the wish to have to filter productive feedback from useless rants where people just seem to push their own little personal agenda on the fourms.

In short: If you act as if you have a war to win on the forums, you do something wrong.
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Mephistopheles »

To get respect in the forum you need to start Ingame.

Start respecting people in the game because that's the bottom line where the posts come from.

Maybe try taking bits from rants at face value for what it is. A frustrated player complaining.

Why do they need to complain, have they ever gone to the cms? If not then why? If they did then was the issue resolved? Also stop to consider if its a recurring issue someone else brought up.

Compromises and rational talks work, but not with people who refuse to compromise or even see that there's a problem.

My final bit of advice, stop bitching about the bitching and fix the source of bitching.
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Mephistopheles »

Jupiter wrote:My opinion as a dev: I sometimes just ignore certain topics and posts. Why? Because the tone is too hostile for my taste. I am not willing to read posts where the general attitude seems to be "I know the truth, I am right. You are wrong and the staff members are probably satanists."
That this comes often from the same persons over and over again does not help the situation either. I always try to be open and listen to the opinions of players. I very much like to get feedback. Talk to me in the IRC chat or send me a PM, I will care to answer your questions and listen to your concerns. But I don't have the time nor the wish to have to filter productive feedback from useless rants where people just seem to push their own little personal agenda on the fourms.

In short: If you act as if you have a war to win on the forums, you do something wrong.
It has only grown hostile because for literally 3 years the devs have ignored the blatant problems with the game. What started out as "hey this seems to be a problem can we try and find a way to change it so everyone benefits?" to "WTF!" then you wonder why? The dev team is never open for change, period, so stop acting like you guys work for the game's sake and not your own. They guard their bad work's like a mother guards her deformed child. Own up to your problems and stop blaming everyone else.

I'm the problem say it and stop being a pansy. fact is I don't even play your game anymore, so get over it.
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Q-wert »

From what I can see there is a very small number of players putting out these rants. Usually players that have contributed little to no actual work to development or GMing who at the same time wave around huge ideas and changes they believe to make this the game they want to play. And when work is put elsewhere (there is an enchanting system on the way, new items and recipes are in process and some day Nitram will finish the long needed overhaul of account and character creation) these people start angrily spitting why the 'rescue' they laid out is being ignored.

This game is open source, mates.

If you don't like it, change it. But don't expect change to come over night and without work.
The Dev and GM team are both recruiting. So if you have some grand (or small) idea you want to implement, if you think you have it in you to do better GM oversight, do it.
Alternatively, try to be nice to the people that do.

Edit: I like the idea of a rant forum. I think it would help to separate constructive criticism and ideas for features from posts of the like you find right over this one.
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Fooser »

Those who don't care don't bother to rant. We can also talk about how we went from 215 steady accounts to fluctuating between 70-100. That's over half, and few of them ranted about anything. They simply lost interest, couldn't be bothered, and never came back. I'm not ok with half the user base evaporating, others don't seem too concerned.
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Nitram
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Nitram »

Keep in mind that this decrease in player numbers started 6 years ago and was actually halted around 3 years ago with the VBU. If the descent that was present before the VBU would have continued, we wouldn't have any players at all any more. It is still a bad thing, but at least we were able to stop the massive loss of players.

The thing is: If you can be bothered to rant or not doesn't really matter, because rants like the ones we have seen recently in the forum are hardly something the team is able to work with. They show that something is not okay, but they don't give a clear idea what exactly is wrong and they do not give any proposals for improvements. I understand that those topics still basically say what some players are thinking angrily about Illarion, still they do not give anyone a idea how to improve it.

Many rants point to the idea "just change it back like it was before", in matters of how the things are handled in game. You all know what you are talking about. But keep in mind that this was the state during the time where we were in this hard descent of players between 2010 and 2013, that we barely managed to stop. I don't think it is a good idea to revert back to a state that we know that it does not work, because it caused a massive loss of players.

The staff is always interested in idea how to improve the game, but we will not go back to a state that simply doesn't work. We can't afford to loose players like we did back then any more.

Kind regards,
Nitram
Fooser
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Fooser »

I dont think 2010-2013 is a proper time to point to, to say older methods didn't work. Thinking back .. The game was basically on lockdown during that time.

-No more map changes were allowed
-Little/no large GM storylines until the end
-Word got out Gobaith was being wiped
-No one knew if items/skills were being wiped too
-Trollsbane couldn't even get tax money from the npc

So there wasn't a lot of motivation during that time.
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Kugar
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Kugar »

I really don't have the time right now to read through this thread and offer an insightful opinion, maybe I will read up on it and comment in a few days.

But can we please have a 'lifespan' on these kind of topics? Like, delete it after two weeks or something. If it cannot be solved here in two weeks then it won't be solved on the forum and will just make the game look bad for potential new players. Or even open up a new section of the forum for only veteran players like us, to rant?

Also, just like players, devs should take a break if they feel overwhelmed. Working under stress isn't a good thing to do. Neither is giving up to spite your face and regretting it at a later date. I've seen all this stuff many times before and it won't be the last, I'd wager.
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Kamilar
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Kamilar »

I agree with Nitram. We really can't go back.

I appreciate the acknowledgement that some players are angry. And Fooser's right, too. It's the players that are passionate about the game that take the time to say something. For every player that speaks up, there are probably more unhappy ones that say nothing.

It might be good to take an honest inventory of the current situation as a first step. Before any solutions are implemented, it would be good to get a handle on what the problems actually are. I think that's important.

I also don't have time right now for a longer post but I'm not a fan of deleting rants. The history can have valuable information and help to separate the bellyachers from the herd. They'll sink on their own with a more active forum. A rant forum is self-correcting, I promise.
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Re: Forum Tone / Rants

Post by Damien »

If a community wants to achieve something - like getting more players to play and grow the game platform with gained manpower - then it is a very bad idea to be agressive towards newcomers and other community members, especially those who actually put or have put work into the game itself.
Me ? I've worked with the old illarion staff, but that was years ago. I've talked to many too agressive players back then. Mainly, those who were the unfriendliest, were also the youngest. But even those who are ranting or cussing or insulting all the time can be pretty nice and decent people when they either calm down or grow up a bit. Or when they just understand that the way they are adressing things is causing the contrary of what they want to achieve to happen. Either by demotivating or scaring off other players and devs, or by getting themselves banned.

That's why i think the "senseless" whining and ranting needs to stop, or at least change into something productive.
Many rants have a lot of energy in them, and of course the people ranting will spend a lot more time being angry. If all that energy and time could be used for something productive instead of something destructive... well.
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