Really?

[Djironnyma]

warum hinterläßt die Antwort bei mir nur das Gefühl, das dadurch nichts besser ist
why this answer dont make me feeling better

Um die Situation zu verbessern bist du gerne eingeladen die genannten Prozesse zu beschreiben, aufzuarbeiten und zu übersetzen. Jedes Staffmitglied kann dir die dafür nötigen Fragen beantworten. Wie gesagt ist der Grund, warum diese Dinge nicht getan sind, der Mangel an Arbeitskraft.

You are welcome to describe, work up and translate the mentioned processes if you want help to improve the Situation. Any staffmeber can answer you the needed questions. As already said, the reason why that isnt done is the lack of manpower for such tasks.

[GolfLima]

Um die Situation zu verbessern bist du gerne eingeladen die genannten Prozesse ................................. zu übersetzen.

Übersetzen vom ENG ins DEU ist kein Problem, solange es nicht unter Zeitdruck passieren muß, habe ja schon öfter angeboten dies zu tun - vom DEU ins ENG ist es schon deutlich schwieriger , dafür dürfte ich nicht gut genug sein.

[GolfLima]

Um die Situation zu verbessern bist du gerne eingeladen die genannten Prozesse ................................. zu übersetzen.

Übersetzen vom ENG ins DEU ist kein Problem, solange es nicht unter Zeitdruck passieren muß, habe ja schon öfter angeboten dies zu tun - vom DEU ins ENG ist es schon deutlich schwieriger , dafür dürfte ich nicht gut genug sein.

[Fooser]

[*]influence Cadomyr to work as facilitator

Uh, what am I missing here? Wasn't the battle In cadomyr? Wasn't the main "victim" cadomyr? Why would they facilitate anything with people who weren't effected as much? Runewick arbitrarily banned 4 people - it was totally arbitrary.

[rakust dorenstkzul]

bye galim

[GolfLima]

bye galim

waves and sighs // winkt & seuftzt

[Djironnyma]

cleaned that decussion from post which break the rules.

Uh, what am I missing here? Wasn't the battle In cadomyr? Wasn't the main "victim" cadomyr? Why would they facilitate anything with people who weren't effected as much? Runewick arbitrarily banned 4 people - it was totally arbitrary.

That are very interesting question. You should ask them IG, investigate, that will creates events, content, dynamic.

[Fooser]

This shit happened six months ago. Pre-VBU everyone would have moved on and would be doing other things already. Instead we've been subjected to a parade of bullshit for six months with no end in sight. If you and the GMs want to put up indefinite bans to extort people you go ahead and do that bro, everyone involved either left or are playing alts.

[Djironnyma]

We can conclude that we have different opinions. I expect people being IG pro active about the problems of their chars to solve them, you expect all problems will solve themself if you just wait.

[Kamilar]

@ Dji: You're operating under the assumption that people want to play at political maneuvering. While I appreciate politics and meetings are very enjoyable for some players, they're not for everyone. There should be room for a variety of play. The game shouldn't be all politics and manipulation and long term grudges. That part is only fun for a few players who benefit from it. It's kind of inflicted on the rest of us whether we enjoy it or not. It's clearly making some players tremendously unhappy. It would be good if you could try to look at this from the other side.

[Fooser]

So many options ..

1. Speak with / bribe / influence the chancellors that they may negotiate to lift the ban <--- Bribe the chancellors so that they can go negotiate another bribe to pay
2. become a town official by yourself to negotiate the ban <---- pay the Don so I can go pay the extortion
3. Bribe the Don to speak for your char <--- Bribe the Don so he can go negotiate the extortion
4. Get something Runewick want/needs to bribe/blackmail them <---- pay the extortion myself and cut the middle men, exciting!
5. Start an IG(!) campaign against runewick to build pressure <--- lol
6. influence Cadomyr to work as facilitator <---- bribe cadomyr so they can negotiate the extortion
7. influence a Runewick citizens to work as facilitator <---- bribe a runewick person so they can negotiate the extortion

Hey, you're banned, we don't have to give a reason, rest assured that a GM. that happens to be in my guild, says it's ok. Now if you give us something of value IG we can make this go away ...

[Q-wert]

You, sir, are trolling. Have something to eat:

And how can you be so sure the characters that instated the ban actually are after something 'of value' ingame? Might it be that they dislike the threats and attempted defamations against certain individuals coming from your character? Has your character entered negotiations or even inquired what they are after and why?

And why is the only way your character is able to influence or befriend other people is bribing them?

[Fooser]

For a NA players you can easily have a char that never needs to go to Runewick. It's usually empty in that timezone, there's no exclusive tools, and anyone there who trades goes to galmair. To negotiate don't you need something someone wants? Tho topic was re-started by someone who isn't in Gal anymore.

[Djironnyma]

@ Dji: You're operating under the assumption that people want to play at political maneuvering. While I appreciate politics and meetings are very enjoyable for some players, they're not for everyone. There should be room for a variety of play. The game shouldn't be all politics and manipulation and long term grudges. That part is only fun for a few players who benefit from it. It's kind of inflicted on the rest of us whether we enjoy it or not. It's clearly making some players tremendously unhappy. It would be good if you could try to look at this from the other side.

You are right that not everyone enjoys political play. Anyway I operate under the assumption that a char, who is part of a political active guild and who writes post like that http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 88&t=40440 want to play political maneuvering.

rest assured that a GM. that happens to be in my guild, says it's ok.

I tell you again that decissions like long terms bans are never made by a single GM. I m assure that you recognised that the first time i said it. I will take it as an insulting lie if you bringing that false argument up again.
Furthermore as Q-wert mentioned it’s a false guess that it needs something valuable / something to pay to solve the situation. But once aigain i have no desire to spoil that matter ooc before you even try to solve it ig.

[Fooser]

It probably wont be resolved, it is what it is. This has veered into specific circumstances instead of general ban usage. Mech bans arent a great way to bring interaction, they never have been. To suggest people should be motivated for high quality interaction after you slam a door in their face is ridiculous.

You keep turning it to ask what the banned people have done, so what have you done? Why are town bans the first option? Are you saying there aren't other ways to "pressure" chars? What alternatives did you attempt?

And while in my case the char doesn't need to go to Runewick, a town ban could cause major gameplay issues for others, so shouldn't there be open guidelines for this?

Who can request a town ban?
Who will be deciding the request?
How much or how little justification is needed?
If there is no resolution can the ban theoretically last forever? If not, when does it expire?

[Q-wert]

I do very much like the the current informal guidelines for player-driven perma bans as far as I understand them:

• If all characters in the local town player leadership support a proposed perma ban, it can be put forth to the gms.
• The request is put in the gm-forum where all gms can express their opinion and discuss the outcome.
• Enough in character justification is needed to convince the town ruler (if there is one) for the ban to do more good for the settlement and its ideals than harm.
• The ban lasts for as long until the local town player leadership as a whole decides to lift it.

[Kamilar]

Here's a surprise ...

I very much don't like the current informal player-driven perma-ban system.

First of all, the player leaders are in place for a very long time and in some factions, forever. This system benefits those few players at the detriment of the rest of the player base. There's insufficient GM oversight. If a problem originates with the behavior of player leaders, there's no recourse except to suck it up or vote with our feet.

For a problem to drag on for so many months like what Fooser complains about points to a problem with the player leaders and the level of GM oversight. After this long period of time, responsible players should be actively reaching out and trying to offer some resolution to the players of the banned characters and if they aren't, the GMs should be reminding them. To simply ban and forget is inconsiderate and selfish.

We aren't talking about noobie trolls attacking anything that moves. We're talking about long-term players being marginalized by other players for RL months or years. This isn't promoting cooperative roleplay. This is promoting 'us against them' competitive gameplay. We might as well have back the old prison oubliette system that Vilarion smashed pre-VBU. In fact, this makes me a little nostalgic for it because personally, I don't enjoy having to spend endless months scheming, grovelling and manipulating to get attention for something. That's just not how I want to spend my leisure time.

Is it a coincidence that it's the players of the faction leaders that defend the system?

[Mephistopheles]

Stop argueing with people who obviously don't want players to play their game

They will simply come forth with idiotic rationalizations. I'm seen as the problem so I decided to move on, you guys should just drop it.

Its good bros, they want you to screw off, so just do it.

[Azure Lynch]

Look this is the way I see it. I have no issue with the ban and I have been banned a few times. But the difference with me and what I see with you guys and Sue me if you hate me for saying this. Cause I believe ban should be used last and from what I have seen it was there was plenty of rp before that. And here it goes the difference. I rped out of my banns. Well all but one cause she would do what they request. But all you want is to ooc it undone. Well not gonna happen. Unless it is a legitimate reason. But that is why more than one GM agrees on perma banns. No you are just lazy and pissed cause the rp didn't go your way well pull the stick out your buns and get over it. You want to be unban then get your arse intake and rp something. And if your character wouldn't use political means. Then use a GM and sneak the freak in. Say you used rope and climbed over or have an Allie drug the guard then you can cause rukus inside leaving everyone baffled use your minds and rp around a system you dislike cause it ain't going nowhere. Quit being lazy I said it once I'll say it again where has all the rp gone where the cool players that rp instead of whine and cry cause it don't go there way. Well now that I pissed everyone off
Have a nice day

[Mephistopheles]

GMs say no to all the things you just suggested, learn up before you tell someone to try shit you tool

[Mephistopheles]

You know exactly why the rp is gone and why the cool players decided to leave.


Just because we have chars that stick to their moral agendas unlike some people that change on a nearly weekly basis.

[Azure Lynch]

GMs say no to all the things you just suggested, learn up before you tell someone to try shit you tool

I never had them say no to something I suggested. So yeah I learned up as you say. It seems most assume them to say no or.they do so.ething with out first getting the OK. All my suggestion I stated above.I have done or was gonna do but rp lead it.to a different approach but was never refused.

[Azure Lynch]

You know exactly why the rp is gone and why the cool players decided to leave.


Just because we have chars that stick to their moral agendas unlike some people that change on a nearly weekly basis.

Some people change where the RP takes them. It's what happens it an Rp. You can't be so determined that it is going to be this way and only this way. To many variables can change it. So if the cool rpers or.the ones you refer to then they are not cool rpers but crappy. Cause life can throw changes at you just like rpimg can
Adapt and overcome or stay home. But if you choose to vote withe your feet then quit trolling aswell it spoils the mood for those that wish to continue to play and have fun.

[Karrock]

Azure, you wrote once that you miss bandits rp. But you should know that playing as bandits is most hardest thing in game. Every attack, even that not performed with any weapons is quickly been reported to High level chars or leaders. After months of planning any attack it's going to ruin by reporting.
And those reports too often ends with high punishment (higher money than bandits can earn on their tries to rob). And every try is quickly ended with ban and when someone is repeating his bad deeds ends with permaban. Poor that all three towns works like one. So if you will try to attack only citizens of other town, that rumors and punishment come to you in your town. Players cause of that just don't want to play bandits.
This is one of causes why some players are weeping on forum. They just don't want to pay more than they earn on their "bad"/"evil" deeds.

I did not say about rp tries one thing. People ignore rp attacks and just leave (sometimes even laughing). But when you try to attack with mechanic they will just flee. Chasing after them looks like benny hill. There is no good solution for "evil"/"bad" issue. Cause: Nobody is treating "evil"/"bad" guys serious.

EDIT: Why "bad"/"evil" characters should talk with leaders of town when in their rp meaning those persons are their enemies? In real world you can't just throw out someone from city with using "magic powers". If someone is kicked through doors, he always can try to enter through window. This is really looks too much a try to destroy someone way of playing.

SECOND EDIT: I'm against mechanic bans when there are no ways to enter stealth town in mechanical way. Asking and disturbing GMs every time when you try enter town is not solution.

[Azure Lynch]

well. take the time to build up by traing with the bandits. it really doesnt take long to be a threat. but the real issue is the fact the others ignore the rp. and thats when you hit them. never introduce yourself and they can report all they want. if rp is done right and there is no proof you are the so called bandit then no ban. but use mechanical only after you warned them enough times. ps. no player leader will risk duing ooc. as long as you try to rp it first.

[Alrik]

Just a few things which came into my mind regarding "bad guys".

After some years playing Illarion I have seen many ways how a bad guy could be. From - to me in person anoying - characters who just attack randomly and are upseat when the other one didn't drop anything even if they killed him, to muggers, thiefs, highwaymen, tricksters and so on. And that just is what often comes first in mind if you think of a bad guy.

I liked the ones who use rp instead of mechanics first always the most - it is more fun if you have a chance to interact first.

But, as always and as Karrock said, this is no guarantee that a bad guy gets some booty and is getting away without facing any punishment. Why? Maybe the other one tried to resist, maybe the other character is all but not helpless. If someone is beeing robbed but wears an armor, he may think "Hrm... Even that dagger which that thief is holding on my back will hurt a bit, it wouldn't kill me - but than I can beat him", maybe they have some other things why they just grin about the one trying to rob then. Perhaps that character simply is blessed with a huge ego. But like I read it every day in newspapers, for everyone who managed to rob a bank, 10 of the robbers go to jail before they had any kind of success.

Regarding town bans and "bad guys" beeing chased:

I think Djironnyma wrote a few days ago a comment in the thread "Guild discussion" which we also can use here. Especially the sentense which said something similar to: "You are lost if you are alone - in a group you are strong".

I had the example with the robbed guy further above in this thread. That guy may think that he can beat one guy, even if that guy managed to surprise him from behind with a dagger - but if he shows up with some friends.... Ok, you maybe beat two of them, but three our four?

Even if you get baned from at least one of the cities, if you have friends inside that city, they can help you to lift the band with ingame actions. Even if you dislike the city leader(s) ingame, you and your friends can take action inside the city. Talk to people ("Have you heard, that poor boy was thrown out for nothing..."), build up pressure....

Another point which came to my mind: Even if you don't want to found a whole thieves guild (which could be interessting anyway), everyone needs some kind of connections. A crafter needs trading partners to sell his goods or to get raw materials which he couldn't get allone, a fighter could dig even the largest treasure maps if he has some friends which will come with him, a mage would be glad for sure if he has some colleagues which could assist him in rituals or other things of the arcane arts. And last but not least.... If our thief has some friends in the guard, maybe even is a friend of a chancelor/noble/member of the academic council - this could be used to his advantage. Maybe his friends could say "Wasn't him, he was somewhere else". And if other citys complain that this guy robbed someone on their territory... They could also say "Proof it so that I believe it, otherwise that complaint will land in the trashbin".

Summary:

Don't try to much to fast but continue rp. If it doesn't work alone, team up and make friends.

[Kamilar]

@ Dji: You're operating under the assumption that people want to play at political maneuvering. While I appreciate politics and meetings are very enjoyable for some players, they're not for everyone. There should be room for a variety of play. The game shouldn't be all politics and manipulation and long term grudges. That part is only fun for a few players who benefit from it. It's kind of inflicted on the rest of us whether we enjoy it or not. It's clearly making some players tremendously unhappy. It would be good if you could try to look at this from the other side.

You are right that not everyone enjoys political play. Anyway I operate under the assumption that a char, who is part of a political active guild and who writes post like that http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 88&t=40440 want to play political maneuvering.

@ Dji: Because players are engaging in the political maneuvering doesn't mean they want to. There isn't much other in game choice. That doesn't mean it's fun. For my part, I'm working with the political system but I really hate it.

I think Fooser's current state of inactivity in game and hostility on the forums pretty clearly negates your assumption. It would really be good to try and see this from the his perspective.

[Karrock]

DELETED

I change my mind. I don't want to add comment.

[Kugar]

There is really no need to discuss this subject here again. The topic here is about the chancellor system & the Don-chancellor relationship. And I didn't even refer to you. Please stick to it.

So you get to write all that stuff and a reply isn't allowed? That's awfully one sided and unfair.

I really would like to ask players to make a cut at some point. Your chars should also develop and be more flexible. If an "evil" guy has been punished hundred times for the same crime, there should be somewhere a learning curve or do they all suffer on amnesia?

Make a cut at some point? Building conflict takes time in a game that so few people play. People can play how they want (not everyone wants a 'peace simulator' as I've heard it referenced to before) and imo it's not really your place to tell people how to rp or develop their characters. You should also probably not claim to know the inner workings of the emotions, mental capacity, ambitions and goals of our characters - because you simply don't.

I remember no 'hundred' punishments for our "evil" guys but I suppose you're just being facetious. There were a few, sure. As for a learning curve, you should probably consider how resentment is actually born and grows over time. In most existing examples of conflict and the creation of anti-establishment rebel groups, you'll find that said opposing forces are usually made up of those who have been 'punished hundreds of times' and would rather die than give up on their goal of ultimate revenge, because it is their perception that they have nothing else to live for or expect greater things for themselves. I don't really need to cite a reference here, we can all switch on the news after all. There is also the small case of one's sanity failing them and, example to be found in Prea, giving in to a much darker and powerful force to succeed in their goals.

My char has been one of the leading anti establishment chars in this game since his inception. But since it's clearly unwanted (or just outright unsupported) for such role play to occur I'll probably just take an extended break. It's not really worth my while to continue trying to create some long term conflict in this game. Especially since every threat is designed to be destroyed instantly in some predictable way.

What I find incredibly disconcerting is the fact that so many players have left this game in recent months/years but, despite this fact, the tone of some gms and devs comes across as though their ideas and opinions are infallible. I really hate to take part in these arguments but sometimes these things need said - whether people want to read it or not. If I didn't pour so many hours into this game I'd probably just ignore all this but since I did I feel like I have the right to an opinion and I'm quite annoyed, frankly.

[Teflon]

The keyword was "here" in this one particular thread. Maybe I should have added you can discuss whatever you wish in another thread. Sorry for the confusion.
I allowed myself to move your post to a thread that fits more to your post in my opinion than the thread about chancellor system & the Don-chancellor (here the link to the post you are referring: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 78#p701478).

By cut at some point, I meant players getting upset about IG-events should make a cut. Otherwise I don't see how you want to get over with any potential frustration.
And of course I can't look into the mind of your characters but it is still you who decides what they do. That's what I meant, if it helps to understand my point.

We also see the issue/difficulty of playing shady/evil characters. Galmair is shady by design and would support such characters but things have changed with more "good" characters moving to Galmair and more power to shape things for players. Just reenforcing the shady-state to whole Galmair would probably frustrate those players who worked on it to make it less shady. Thus, the idea to allow shady character to rule and sneak into the underground of Galmair (supported by gods like Ronagan or Nargun). So, while the surface would be the save heaven for the currently dominate group, the challenging groups could still use he underground. This would probably also allow them to dodge attempts to be instantly destroyed easier. That might not be perfect but better than forcing them into the wildness where they have little to no support. A fourth faction in the wildness is currently not an option for known reasons.

I also can imagine how you feel about the difficulty to create some long term conflicts or threats. I have experienced this in some quests too. As far as I see, this is caused by the competitiveness of players (healthy competition is needed in games) and value of a character. There aren't many who would accept their chars being killed. Too much effort have been put into them and it takes time to skill up and collect decent material to have a powerful character. Either we go with quest characters for serious conflicts or support/reward the acceptance of death in another way. Difficult topic. However, my experience shows, at some point everyone gets frustrated when they recognize that whatever they do, it doesn't change anything and they become the next Don Quijote. This counts for both sides (evil&good) and this is also nothing new since the VBU. That was the same issue on Gobaith. You could conquer Silverbrand 100 times and it would remain. You could beat up the Temple and they would always come back. So, the question to me is, how to make losing attractive? Our how do you see the future of Jefferson? Is he going to arrange himself with one of the factions? Is this even an option for him? Will he remain an outlaw? Will he then just ignore them or continue fighting them? And if so, will he go all in?