Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

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Q-wert
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Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Q-wert »

After playing for about one year in an administrative position in Cadomyr (and in some parts substituting for gm inactivity over there) there were a couple of issues regarding resource distribution that caught my attention. Most of them have been addressed before with proposals, all denied by the development team. While I surely am biased on the matter, there are some clear indicators that some developers do push and protect the attractiveness of Galmair over other settlements in regards of available resources. In the following I'll go over what I do find to be the most glaring issues.

Leadership Ranks

Gem distribution: ->Link<-
Key Lines:

Code: Select all

 local baseWageUnit=totalTaxes/(totalPayers*10000) -- 10000: "base unit" change accordingly if necessary.
 local RecipientRk=factions.getRankAsNumber(Recipient)
 local RankedWage=math.ceil(RecipientRk*baseWageUnit*0.5)
This does tell us is the following: Gems are basically distributed equally among all characters of a settlement and then multiplied by a factor of their rank. A settlement with higher ranking characters does therefore receive a higher total amount of gems for the same donations. Which should be fine, as one can raise in rank by doing static quests or recieving roleplay-rewards handed out by gms (usually for quest stuff).

The town leadership (that being player characters in some way entitled to do administrative stuff for the town) however receives higher ranks than one can gain by quests, which is fine so far. The problem is, that all settlements have inequally distributed ranks for their leadership, resulting in an simply put unfair advantage over the other settlements. One could argue the matter to be in character, but it really is not. Changes to the political structure of a settlement always have to be given the okay from gm/dev-forums behind the scenes, the whole process from request over corrections to approval is ooc.

Current Leadership ranks:


Galmair:
  • 1x Lvl 10
    3x Lvl 9
Runewick:
  • 1x Lvl 9
    2x Lvl 8
Cadomyr:
  • 1x Lvl 9
    1x Lvl 8
    (1x Lvl 8 upcoming)
With the current distribution Galmair is, again simply put, given more stuff for the same work.

Proposal: Have 5 additional rank levels to be distributed over all the leadership characters for each settlement. Have the leaderships of each settlement work out the distribution of those 5 additional levels on their own. In character.

I am aware that an idea of gem distribution with the amount calculated beforehand and ranks determining the cut from the total gems is discussed somewhere behind the curtains. But so is the magic system. And I would not mind a quick fix before waiting a couple of years.

Dungeons and Monsters

Naturally every settlement does have one rat dungeon for newbies. The somewhat further proximity offers the following profitable dungeons for the settlements:

Runewick
  • Way Out (closer to Hemptie): Bandit Hole (5-6)
    Way Out (closer to Hemptie): Spider Den (Archer Dungeon*)
Galmair
  • Inside: Underground Dungeon (1-3?)
    In front of Gate: Dwarf Fortress (5-6)
    Close: Rat Alchemists (3-4)
    Far: Lake of Life (4-5/6)
Cadomyr
  • In front of Gate: Crypt (1-3?)
    Far: Letma (4-7)
    Far: Hammerfell (5-8)
    Very Far: Alkatut (Archer Dungeon)
Note: Level 6 is enough to raise ones skill to 100. Also got one of the best killtime/loot ratio for high level characters.

In recent history there were some few changes made to the dungeons. The Spider Den as well as the Cadomyrian drow farming hole were made Archer Dungeons (making them unsuitable for the majority of players), Letma recieved an ugly face lift, Hammerfell got a fine looking level for 6-8. The Dwarf Fortress in front of Galmair was reopened. Galmair also recieved the nicely compact Rat Alchemists and the far too big and empty Lake of Life. Also, the Bandit Hole was put into the wilderness, coser to the Hemptie than to Runewick.

Interestingly enough a request of mine to place a 6-7 Dungeon in front of Cadomyr was denied with pointing out that nothing higher than level 5 must be close to a town (seems to be fine for the Galmarian Dwarf Fortress). In the meantime all suitable farming spots did pop up in the Neighbourhood of Galmair, or closer to the Hemptie than their respective settlement. There must be a very unbiased developer at work.

Mining and Goldsmithing

Complete mining.lua : ->Link<-
Excerpt of mining yield for settlements:

Code: Select all

    --Galmair "Dark Hole Mine"
    AddArea( 1, position(406,159,-3), 20 );
    AddStone( 1, 1245 );
    SetResource( 1, 1245,  21, 70); -- coal
    SetResource( 1, 1245, 1062,  10); -- silver
    SetResource( 1, 1245,  252, 6); -- obsidian
    SetResource( 1, 1245,  255, 2); -- rubys
    AddStone( 1, 1246 );
    SetResource( 1, 1246, 21,  50); -- coal
    SetResource( 1, 1246, 1062,  10); -- silver
    SetResource( 1, 1246, 251,  6); -- amethysts
    SetResource( 1, 1246,  256,  2); -- emerald

    --Galmair "Malachite Mine"
    AddArea( 2, position(420,371,0), 30 );
    AddStone( 2, 232 );
    SetResource( 2, 232, 2536, 40); -- copper
    SetResource( 2, 232, 234,  3); -- gold nuggets
    SetResource( 2, 232, 254,  3); -- diamonds
    SetResource( 2, 232, 251,  1); -- amethysts
    AddStone( 2, 914 );
    SetResource( 2, 914,  22, 70); -- iron ore
    SetResource( 2, 914,  255, 3); -- rubys
    SetResource( 2, 914,  257, 1); -- topas
    AddStone( 2, 1273 );
    SetResource( 2, 1273,  22, 50); -- iron ore
    SetResource( 2, 1273,  253, 3); -- sapphire
    SetResource( 2, 1273,  252, 1); -- obsidian
    AddStone( 2, 1276 );
    SetResource( 2, 1276,  2536, 40); -- copper ore
    SetResource( 2, 1276,  256, 3); -- emerald
    SetResource( 2, 1276,  253, 1); -- sapphire

    --Cadomyr "Cornerstone of Candour"
    AddArea( 3, position(142,686,0), 15 );
    AddStone( 3, 1245 );
    SetResource( 3, 1245,  21, 40); -- coal
    SetResource( 3, 1245, 1062,  5); -- silver
    SetResource( 3, 1245,  252, 3); -- obsidian
    SetResource( 3, 1245,  255, 1); -- rubys
    AddStone( 3, 1246 );
    SetResource( 3, 1246, 21,  25); -- coal
    SetResource( 3, 1246, 1062,  5); -- silver
    SetResource( 3, 1246, 251,  3); -- amethysts
    SetResource( 3, 1246,  256,  1); -- emerald

    --Cadomyr "Liberty Quarry"
    AddArea( 4, position(165,603,0), 15 );
    AddStone( 4, 232 );
    SetResource( 4, 232, 2536, 40); -- copper
    SetResource( 4, 232, 234,  5); -- gold nuggets
    SetResource( 4, 232, 254,  3); -- diamonds
    SetResource( 4, 232, 251,  1); -- amethysts
    AddStone( 4, 914 );
    SetResource( 4, 914,  22, 40); -- iron ore
    SetResource( 4, 914,  255, 3); -- rubys
    SetResource( 4, 914,  257, 1); -- topas
    AddStone( 4, 1273 );
    SetResource( 4, 1273,  22, 25); -- iron ore
    SetResource( 4, 1273,  253, 3); -- sapphire
    SetResource( 4, 1273,  252, 1); -- obsidian
    AddStone( 4, 1276 );
    SetResource( 4, 1276,  2536, 40); -- copper ore
    SetResource( 4, 1276,  256, 3); -- emerald
    SetResource( 4, 1276,  253, 1); -- sapphire
When taking a close look at the code, one can tell two things: The Galmarian values have been altered by someone why had no idea what he was doing (take a close look at line 208). And that the Galmarian mines have a 30% higher chance of anything of use and yield up to twice the amount of gems and silver. Which might not look too at first glance, but 30-100% more time spent for the same result is quite a lot.

In the past the path to the Dark Hole Mine was way longer, which is why I suppose the values were somewhat suitably altered for. The distance has been reduced twice without debuffing the mine since then. At the current state all settlement mines are roughly the same walking distance from a depot.
There were two Cadomyrian requests I know of to build a tunnel to the Liberty Quarry similar to the one to the Dark Hole Mine, both have been denied. A second gate guard npc required for that tunnel (as Galmair has for a very similar purpose) would be no option, I was told. About one year ago I put forth a request to rebalance the mines at the irl-meeting, but the matter was not deemed important enough due to the upcoming revamp of recipes.

Still have some ugly Germish spreadsheet with the proposed values (can put that into clean code, if requested):
->Link<- (download, Google preview looks like shit)

The idea was to keep the Galmarian mines the best source for blacksmithing (primary craft in Galmair), while making the Cadomyrian mines viable for goldsmithing (primary craft in Cadomyr). I'd have given Galmair a 10% higher chance to find anything of use while giving Cado about 10% more precious metals and more gems.

As of right now goldsmithing (let me remind you: primary craft in Cadomyr with the most craftable items) remains to be more efficiently done in Galmair. All requests for rebalance have been denied. Well, thank you.


*as in only reliably beatable as archer

PS: I was about to write some more on production chains and trade (Galmair was given by far the best production chain in regards of independence from other settlements, while its players keep on pointing out trade to be oh-so important and nothing should be changed in regards of crafts and resources to preserve trading), but I figured the first three points to be enough for creating controversy for now.
Last edited by Q-wert on Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Annabeth
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Annabeth »

On the note of Cadomyrians having goldsmithing as their main craft, last time I checked the plans of the devs this was to be changed where Galmair will have both blacksmithing and goldsmithing as their main crafts with the new crafting distributions. (Although on the note of this topic, that does seem like even further favorising of Galmair as goldsmithing is one of the few lucrative things Cadomyr has to offer)

That was months ago though so, would need someone to confirm if this is still the plan.

On the note about dungeons, whilst I too would like more dungeons for Cadomyr as I'm obviously biased towards that town, I'd just like to thank the devs and especially Evie who I understand does most of the map and quest work for dungeons, for their work and hope they don't get too discouraged by the ranting this topic has brought and might bring.
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Kugar
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Kugar »

...hope they don't get too discouraged by the ranting this topic has brought and might bring.
To be fair, the opening post is written quite constructively with facts and citations - doesn't seem much like a "rant".

Whilst I'm not going to muscle my own (frankly uneducated) opinions into this topic, I think this has all the makings of a good argument. It's good for players to open up dialogue with game developers and they should take it in their stride and be professional about it IMO. Nobody is perfect and without error of judgment after all.
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Tyan Masines »

Productive criticism of one's work should not be classified as a lack of gratitude for that said work, and I am sure it wont be. While I personally do not see any problem with dungeon availability, the other two issues O-wert brought up appear valid, or at least sensible to look into. Gems are important, as everybody will be aware of on player as well as on developer side, as they are the main lure of this game. All money making, eventually, comes down to generate gems (and secondly, potions) to further improve one's abilities, which by the way shifts the lategame's reward system highly in the direction of fighters, but that is another matter entirely. Nevertheless, at the current state, a fair gem distribution seems important to uphold.

As for mines, those should have a the highest possible level of parity as well. There's always a way even without parity, of course, as we have witnessed master smiths from Runewick as well.



But for a more general approach to the 'problem': It is difficult to assess how well a market works if it is so small. There are simply too few market players to truly balance anything. You see, it is mainly how many productive characters are currently playing in a town that give the respective town advantages over the other, not the tools or the availability of resources. It is still a Roleplaying Game and people might chose to live in e.g. Cadomyr, even if their desired craft would be easier learned in Galmair. That works the other way round, too. Further blancing efforts will probably render themselves in vain, such as shifting the main crafts around between towns, as there are simply too few people around to balance.
If you can check this question: 'Is it possible to learn any desired craft while staying true to the characters motivations and moral choice of town?', then the game doesn't have any big balancing problem craft and economy wise. And I believe that question can be checked atm.


Lastly, I wish to repeat two opinions/ideas which I have made public before, alas not in an appropriate matter. Firstly, especially Cadomyr has had its problems with GM supervision from the beginning, with the Queen being played by many different people (and thus having very different moods and ways of dealing with things, as well as a very flawed memory) and was sometimes not played very well as a monarch, I must add without wanting to point fingers. This has made it extremely difficult to bear Cadomyr at times and taking this as well as what Q-wert wrote to account, I don't think that particular town needs any more nerfing.

And secondly, this leads to a more general matter again: The current playerbase is too small to still enforce inter-town-conflict. Nobody wants it, really. Most people get along just fine and if the Roleplay leads to this, I don't see why there should be any forced-RP pressuring people to return to conflict. Actually, with such a small playerbase, I'd recommend to open the market as wide as possible (meaning lesser town-based restrictions on crafting tools etc.) to make the game less bothersome and more enjoyable in general. Let the different morals and background stories of towns make players decide where they want to live, not what they can craft best. And besides, there is no logical explanation whatsoever why one town should not be able to get e.g. a cooking pit or a worktable for tailors, or an anvil. Denying characters that if they bring the resources and express the will to get a certain tool is simply put bad roleplay and a breach of the fourth wall.
I know the idea was to get three towns and conflict between then, but that idea might just have not been the best, and in the current situation with few players, it is useless when it comes to generating fun. Also, having three towns forcefully bolsters how many GMs are necessary to run the game, which again in a small community is not productive. As long as the playerbase doesn't increase threefold, I'd recommend organizing ingame events in which all towns will come together united (e.g. an outside invasion) and have to battle that, instead of themselves. There's an average of 8-10 people online at most times. Don't separate those few through unnaturally enforced borders, bring 'em together!

That way, developers could also turn their attention away from any fine-tuning towns might need (or not need at all, as described above) and work towards the milestone after which the playerbase is going to get increased by advertising.


(summary) tl;dr: Q-wert's points seem viable, but balancing the market with so few market participants wont work. Roleplay-forced conflict between towns is unproductive with a small playerbase and uses up a lot of GM/dev resources better placed elsewhere at the moment. To increase overall game fun and roleplay, organize events all towns participate in equally and reserve the 'three-conflicting-towns' idea for a time when the game has gotten more players (after milestone). It doesn't make any sense to cut an already small playerbase into three even smaller pieces.
Fooser
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Fooser »

Current Leadership ranks:

Galmair:
1x Lvl 10
3x Lvl 9
Runewick:
1x Lvl 9
2x Lvl 8
Cadomyr:
1x Lvl 9
1x Lvl 8
(1x Lvl 8 upcoming)
Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. We have 146 active characters, this list totals about 10 characters, which is 6% of all characters (during a slow period). I don't see how this is a big deal, different factions have different power structures. This seems like a bizarre thing to complain about given two realities that Cadomyr has benefited massively from:
1) Cadomyr was the only faction to have daily rank gain quests for a very long time
2) The primary goldsmith NPC in Cadomyr caused a lot of goldsmiths to be in Cadomyr and to produce a ton of stuff and receive a ton of gold. I don't know if there's data on the total number of gems given out but I was bet money Cadomyr has had more gems than any other faction despite not having the most players, largely because of massive gold being thrown around tied to goldsmithing.
Naturally every settlement does have one rat dungeon for newbies. The somewhat further proximity offers the following profitable dungeons for the settlements:
This is getting real nitpicky now. This has nothing to do with a faction being OP unless that faction has total control of access to whatever dungeon, meaning it would have to be inside the walls of the faction. Other than that we're talking about walking times and teleporter use. If you don't want to walk then use the teleporter and go where the closest dungeon is. On a side note, I didn't know you could get to 100 with a level 6, it seems like that is the real problem.
The idea was to keep the Galmarian mines the best source for blacksmithing (primary craft in Galmair), while making the Cadomyrian mines viable for goldsmithing (primary craft in Cadomyr). I'd have given Galmair a 10% higher chance to find anything of use while giving Cado about 10% more precious metals and more gems.
Is mining considered a primary in Cadomyr? If so that's fair. I don't know if that's what the development team is ultimately looking for, I believe the goal was to encourage players to trade with players in other towns. If all the raw materials for a town's primary craft are easier to get right outside that town then that won't be happening much.
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Tyan Masines »

Fooser wrote:2) The primary goldsmith NPC in Cadomyr caused a lot of goldsmiths to be in Cadomyr and to produce a ton of stuff and receive a ton of gold. I don't know if there's data on the total number of gems given out but I was bet money Cadomyr has had more gems than any other faction despite not having the most players, largely because of massive gold being thrown around tied to goldsmithing.
That's no advantage Cadomyr has, though. Goldsmiths from other towns have been using and are heavily using that particular NPC and it being stationed in Cadomyr doesn't give Cadomyrian characters any benefit, as long as Galmairians and Runewickians can enter Cadomyr freely. It does give them an advantage over Outlaws, but those do not get gems at all. Actually I am fairly sure that particular NPC is what keeps around 75% of ingame trade alive, as it (unintentionally) functions as Illarion's Central Bank, keeping money supply up. It it was nerfed now or made inaccessible to a faction, that would most certainly kill all trade.
Fooser
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Fooser »

Tyan Masines wrote:
Fooser wrote:2) The primary goldsmith NPC in Cadomyr caused a lot of goldsmiths to be in Cadomyr and to produce a ton of stuff and receive a ton of gold. I don't know if there's data on the total number of gems given out but I was bet money Cadomyr has had more gems than any other faction despite not having the most players, largely because of massive gold being thrown around tied to goldsmithing.
That's no advantage Cadomyr has, though. Goldsmiths from other towns have been using and are heavily using that particular NPC and it being stationed in Cadomyr doesn't give Cadomyrian characters any benefit, as long as Galmairians and Runewickians can enter Cadomyr freely. It does give them an advantage over Outlaws, but those do not get gems at all. Actually I am fairly sure that particular NPC is what keeps around 75% of ingame trade alive, as it (unintentionally) functions as Illarion's Central Bank, keeping money supply up. It it was nerfed now or made inaccessible to a faction, that would most certainly kill all trade.
Absolutely it's an advantage. That faction controls access to that resource. At any moment Cadomyr can say "Hey Runewick you can't come in here anymore, so now you can't use our merchants." That's called leverage. Which is my point about the dungeons, Galmair doesn't "control" those resources. Cadomyrians can craft on the spot and sell right to the NPC, all from their own depot, even though other towns can walk in to Cadomyr they don't have that convenience. It must mean something because 90% of the people reaping the big rewards are Cadomyrians. I used to have 5-6 customers from Cadomyr who wanted gold constantly. I'd make 50 gold on the materials and they'd turn it into 200. Cadomyr has been benefitting from this for years. There are goldsmiths past and present in Cadomyr that could toss in 200 gold into donation and not blink. They've done it, I've done it. Even if they don't donate like that there's still a passive benefit to everyone for the automatic tax removal. Meanwhile we're talking about how the rank 10 Galmairian may be getting 1 more latent per month than if they were a rank 9. Seriously?
Annabeth
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Annabeth »

There are goldsmiths past and present in Cadomyr that could toss in 200 gold into donation and not blink.
Goldsmithing really needs balancing, though. It is currently far too lucrative. My character has this IG year alone been able to donate more than 1000 gold, which shouldn't be as easy as it was thanks to goldsmithing.
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Tyan Masines »

Fooser wrote:
Tyan Masines wrote:
Fooser wrote:2) The primary goldsmith NPC in Cadomyr caused a lot of goldsmiths to be in Cadomyr and to produce a ton of stuff and receive a ton of gold. I don't know if there's data on the total number of gems given out but I was bet money Cadomyr has had more gems than any other faction despite not having the most players, largely because of massive gold being thrown around tied to goldsmithing.
That's no advantage Cadomyr has, though. Goldsmiths from other towns have been using and are heavily using that particular NPC and it being stationed in Cadomyr doesn't give Cadomyrian characters any benefit, as long as Galmairians and Runewickians can enter Cadomyr freely. It does give them an advantage over Outlaws, but those do not get gems at all. Actually I am fairly sure that particular NPC is what keeps around 75% of ingame trade alive, as it (unintentionally) functions as Illarion's Central Bank, keeping money supply up. It it was nerfed now or made inaccessible to a faction, that would most certainly kill all trade.
Absolutely it's an advantage. That faction controls access to that resource. At any moment Cadomyr can say "Hey Runewick you can't come in here anymore, so now you can't use our merchants." That's called leverage. Which is my point about the dungeons, Galmair doesn't "control" those resources. Cadomyrians can craft on the spot and sell right to the NPC, all from their own depot, even though other towns can walk in to Cadomyr they don't have that convenience. It must mean something because 90% of the people reaping the big rewards are Cadomyrians. I used to have 5-6 customers from Cadomyr who wanted gold constantly. I'd make 50 gold on the materials and they'd turn it into 200. Cadomyr has been benefitting from this for years. There are goldsmiths past and present in Cadomyr that could toss in 200 gold into donation and not blink. They've done it, I've done it. Even if they don't donate like that there's still a passive benefit to everyone for the automatic tax removal. Meanwhile we're talking about how the rank 10 Galmairian may be getting 1 more latent per month than if they were a rank 9. Seriously?
I think you are still overstating that advantage. And atm, I've seen people from Galmair come to 'rape' that NPC just as people from Cadomyr do, and calling it 90%-10% is not true, it may be 60-40 for Cadomyr, but I'd wager taken all towns together, it'll probably come out at 50-50.

Also, it is basic economics that the people selling the raw materials get less money out of it than the people crafting stuff from those resources. It is true however that goldsmithing has the biggest profit margin. I believe right after goldsmithing there's tailoring, carpentry and then smithing. Again, this is a problem of a small playerbase, as everybody has everything pretty much. With no new players coming in, Illarion's market is a closed system and in a closed system, everybody has everything he/she needs given enough time. Another flaw is that most crafts produce completely useless items. Nobody _needs_ to buy a ring. If you would lower the profit margins in NPCs of certain crafts, you could very well delete that craft from the game at all, as nobody would ever bother to learn it again. You could at any day lower the value of trinkets and robes. That would lower the profit margin of those two very effecient crafts when it comes to generating gold from resources. By doing so, you would also lower the total money supply of Illarion. That would have an impact on trade and _all_ other people, too. You said it yourself: You had customers. You wouldn't have had them if the profit margin would have been lower, because people would have mined for themselves. That's macroeconomics, if you have the money to buy resources because of profitable profit margins, you buy them, if profit margins are shabby, you get the resources yourself, or you don't craft at all.
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Tyan Masines »

PS: As a concrete suggestion on how to tackle the profit margin problem, you could increase the cost for buying raw materials at NPCs vendors. This would make the work of miners/woodcutters/shepherds more profitable. Right now, the highest price and character will pay for raw materials is determined by how much it will cost if he bought it from a NPC. That is not free, player-driven economy. To unshackle that, there can't be an item that will bring any profit if all the raw materials to craft this item are bought from NPC vendors, which is possible atm in various crafts. Now, lowering the value of the crafted item would lower money supply, thus probably hurt the whole economy, but raising buying prices for raw materials might allow for certain branches to have a comeback.

The problem would be that there are not enough miners/etc. and it would make getting started on crafting more difficlt für newbies.
Last edited by Tyan Masines on Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fooser
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Fooser »

I think you are still overstating that advantage. And atm, I've seen people from Galmair come to 'rape' that NPC just as people from Cadomyr do, and calling it 90%-10% is not true, it may be 60-40 for Cadomyr, but I'd wager taken all towns together, it'll probably come out at 50-50.
There are goldsmiths in other towns but there are fewer and it involves bringing stuff to sell one bag at a time which is a cost on time and convenience. You may have seen people from other towns at that NPC but you don't necessarily know what they were doing. When talking about the volume of goldsmith items crafted and sold at the NPC Cadomyr has the advantage. And it's big.
Also, it is basic economics that the people selling the raw materials get less money out of it than the people crafting stuff from those resources. It is true however that goldsmithing has the biggest profit margin.
I understand that, but we're in a topic talking about Galmair mines being OP. Would you rather have easier access to a higher yield coal mine or full control of the best gold/magic gem generator in the game? I know my answer. The best mines and miners are still in Galmair, and Cadomyr could buy from them for a big profit margin. Cadomyr is getting a great deal with how things are set up currently. And as a side note, I noticed the difference in coal:stone ratio between Dark Hole & Cadomyr's mine but I still was pretty efficient in Cadomyr's mine. I don't notice much difference in Galmair's copper/iron mine.
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Tyan Masines »

Sorry for the late PS, your question on how I'd deal with the issue is answered there in detail. Like I wrote earlier, I think comparing three towns at this point (low playerbase) is a waste of time and effort. Like stated above, simply rising buying prices of raw materials at NPCs could deal with the level of unfairness and the income slope between raw material gatherers and crafters.


As for the Cado goldsmith NPC, we wont come to an agreement there. I don't have hard numbers on who uses it, I think neither do you, so we'll only keep guessing and reach no conclusion. I conclude though that as long as the entrance to Cadomyr is not blocked to anyone, everybody _could_ use the NPC, and that it is productive to do so is widely known (if it wasn't, it is now), so this NPC does not create any level of unfairness, again, if the entrance to Cadomyr is not blocked. You can't possibly claim that a Galmairian goldsmith has any disadvantage. Making a bag full of jewelry in Galmair's smithy, then paying 10 silver for a trip to Cadomyr and back is all it takes, and that's.. nothing of a challenge.
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Q-wert
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Q-wert »

As a side note: Goldsmithing will be seriously nerved in the foreseeable future.

@Dungeons:
While not granting a faction much of an immediate advantage, lucrative or effective dungeons in the vicinity of a settlement do draw characters to that area. While one surely could just teleport over and walk straight to the dungeon, at least I do find myself making detours to the settlement and talking to people there rather often. Dungeons are where fighter characters go, and if fighter characters are drawn to (or rather drawn away, looking at Runewick) roleplay at a certain town, that town becomes more (or rather less, looking at Runewick) lively.
Fooser wrote:I don't know if that's what the development team is ultimately looking for, I believe the goal was to encourage players to trade with players in other towns. If all the raw materials for a town's primary craft are easier to get right outside that town then that won't be happening much.
While not part of my initial post, that is really part of the problem. With foodstuff, woodwork, mining and both smithing branches Galmarian craftsmen are offered the largest and most efficient production chain in regards of produceable final items that can work without any trade to other settlements. If trade between settlements is intended to be encouraged, that chain ought to be interrupted or weakened at some point.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Fooser »

There's still miners to buy from out there but there are definitely less. I don't sell raw mined stuff to most people anymore and I can explain why, maybe a dev can look at this explanation and think of something.

I used to only mine because I don't like crafting and am too lazy to figure all the crafting stuff out. So I sold ingots and gems to people and it was fun. But it's a two sided problem. The first was that my profit margin was being eroded by underselling. My prices were like 1.2-1.5s for copper and iron ingots, 6s for gold ingots, and I was being told by customers and competitors that my prices were too high. I'm not sure if crafters realize this but making ingots is a time intensive process and it can be slow. If someone ordered 1,000 ingots from me that was a numerous hour commitment on my part. And at the end I'd get 1.2 gold for 100 ingots and get told my price was too high.

Generally I never paid attention to crafting NPC prices. I never really used them. But when I saw 29 silver for 1 diamond ring I gave up mining for other people instantly. That's an insane profit margin. Just looking at this shorthand calculation for what I would get for materials:

1 diamond - 4 silver
1 gold ingot - 6 silver
1 copper ingot - 1.2 silver

So that's 11.2 silver (while being put under pressure to lower my profit margin, I think I was down to 1 silver for copper ingot and 5 for gold).

With one small extra step (making the ring) I would get compensated for the materials (11.2 silver) AND get 18 silver on top of that. Why would I piss away hours of time watching ingots slowly get smelted to earn a shriveling profit margin while goldsmithing's margin is so high? There's no reason not to do it.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by GolfLima »

please could someone give a short GER summary about this topic

kann bitte jemand eine kurze Zusammenfassung des topic´s in DEU geben?
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Tyan Masines »

Fooser wrote:There's still miners to buy from out there but there are definitely less. I don't sell raw mined stuff to most people anymore and I can explain why, maybe a dev can look at this explanation and think of something.

I used to only mine because I don't like crafting and am too lazy to figure all the crafting stuff out. So I sold ingots and gems to people and it was fun. But it's a two sided problem. The first was that my profit margin was being eroded by underselling. My prices were like 1.2-1.5s for copper and iron ingots, 6s for gold ingots, and I was being told by customers and competitors that my prices were too high. I'm not sure if crafters realize this but making ingots is a time intensive process and it can be slow. If someone ordered 1,000 ingots from me that was a numerous hour commitment on my part. And at the end I'd get 1.2 gold for 100 ingots and get told my price was too high.

Generally I never paid attention to crafting NPC prices. I never really used them. But when I saw 29 silver for 1 diamond ring I gave up mining for other people instantly. That's an insane profit margin. Just looking at this shorthand calculation for what I would get for materials:

1 diamond - 4 silver
1 gold ingot - 6 silver
1 copper ingot - 1.2 silver

So that's 11.2 silver (while being put under pressure to lower my profit margin, I think I was down to 1 silver for copper ingot and 5 for gold).

With one small extra step (making the ring) I would get compensated for the materials (11.2 silver) AND get 18 silver on top of that. Why would I piss away hours of time watching ingots slowly get smelted to earn a shriveling profit margin while goldsmithing's margin is so high? There's no reason not to do it.
That's exactly what I said, or am trying to say for that matter. But that problem would be solved instantly if buying prices of raw materials from NPCs would increase. Then, you could mine and e.g. demand 12 silver for a gold ingot. The problem right now is that I can buy a gold nugget for.. 7 or 8 I think, and coal for 1. So that limits the price I'd be willing to pay to players, since they have to beat the _unfair_ NPC prices. So devs can rewrite the whole crafting system, or they can simply increase NPC raw material prices. I think the latter means less work and will probably be more effective even.

What I fear will happen is that selling prices or resources needed to craft item will be decreased or increased, respecively. That would be the worst solution to the problem, as it would quite plainly render the craft useless and kill it. The profit margin _should be high_ if I went out and mined the materials needed myself. I don't do that because NPCs basically gift me all the resources I need. So increasing their selling prices really seems to be the meaningful thing to do.
Last edited by Tyan Masines on Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Annabeth »

Tyan Masines wrote: So devs can rewrite the whole crafting system
That's a part of one of the current milestones on Mantis.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Tyan Masines »

Annabeth wrote:
Tyan Masines wrote: So devs can rewrite the whole crafting system
That's a part of one of the current milestones on Mantis.
I am aware, I am saying that there is an easier, faster solution for the problem until the milestone has been reached.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Zephyrius »

Q-wert wrote: Leadership Ranks



Current Leadership ranks:


Galmair:
  • 1x Lvl 10
    3x Lvl 9
Runewick:
  • 1x Lvl 9
    2x Lvl 8
Cadomyr:
  • 1x Lvl 9
    1x Lvl 8
    (1x Lvl 8 upcoming)

Do take note that Galmair's chancellors are elected and thus prone to rotation among characters. Runewick and Cadomyr's positions are pretty much permanent and don't have to do anything to keep their posts. Furthermore, the level 10 post in Galmair is a GM position.

On the whole, yes: I think a lot needs changing in regards to the rank system and it has been under discussion by the GMs.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by GolfLima »

if you´re able to make diamond rings :arrow: this is like the permission to make gold coins

wenn Du Diamantringe machen kannst :arrow: das ist wie eine "Goldstück- herstellungs- Erlaubnis"


:wink: // :cry:

((
P.S.
You DONT need to make diamond rings -it is you´re decission :!:
Du MUßT KEINE Diamantringe machen - es ist Deine Entscheidung :!:
))
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Tyan Masines
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Tyan Masines »

Before diamond rings, it was the topaz amulet. Then they changed it to requiring two gold ingots instead of one and people moved down to the next best item to make. This is due to the fact that changing the recipe didn't tackle the problem at it's base. I've just checked the merchant: He sells a gold nugget for 6 (!) silver each, coal for 1 silver each. He sells raw diamonds for 10 silver each. Meaning, I need to pay an NPC (!) 17 silver to make and item worth 29 silver, given I have the required skill for crafting.

If the value of gold nuggets would simply be doubled, making such a ring would cost me 23 silver, lowering the profit margin. I'd also be able to pay any player more than 5 silver for a gold nugget. Miners could demand like 10 or 12 silver each with this simple step.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Annabeth »

Zephyrius wrote:
Q-wert wrote: Leadership Ranks



Current Leadership ranks:


Galmair:
  • 1x Lvl 10
    3x Lvl 9
Runewick:
  • 1x Lvl 9
    2x Lvl 8
Cadomyr:
  • 1x Lvl 9
    1x Lvl 8
    (1x Lvl 8 upcoming)

Do take note that Galmair's chancellors are elected and thus prone to rotation among characters. Runewick and Cadomyr's positions are pretty much permanent and don't have to do anything to keep their posts. Furthermore, the level 10 post in Galmair is a GM position.

On the whole, yes: I think a lot needs changing in regards to the rank system and it has been under discussion by the GMs.
While PO Oxiana is a GM, the character is still a player character that he will be able to keep if he resigns as GM, unless something has changed there? So him being a GM doesn't justify the rank 10. Although I'm not saying the character himself does not deserve the honor of it after all his work, this is all on the ooc side of things about the gem balancing.

Furthermore, while it seems that the Runewick leaders can be absent without repercussion, in Cadomyr you have to remain active and hold events to keep your position or you will soon lose it.

However, on the topic of GM given ranks in general I don't really see why we need three ranks for it. One rank that is GM-given should suffice for the role such a rank has, and it would avoid further discussions about gem-gain as the difference would be much more minor than it is now with rank 9s(such as my own character) and rank 10s(such as Oxiana) whos gem income is significantly larger than a rank 7.

Even though I am of the opinion that GM-given ranks should not give extra gems than the highest player-reached rank, as it may lead to people thinking it is GM-favoritism or players who struggle to get to these roles merely for the gem gain just to then slack off in these roles and not really contribute to the game at all.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by GolfLima »

is the gem-output depending of the ranks realy our biggest problem?
ist der vom Rang abhängige Ausstoß magischer Steine wirklich unser größtes Problem?
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Evie »

*All crafting recipes are being redone in pursuant to milestone II. Goldsmithing will be rebalanced and the problem will go away. Like everything else it takes time. We only have so many people doing developing.

*As for the continued rants about 'dungeon favoritism", there are two more dungeons near Cadomyr that are in the works. Again this takes time, and when the people working on them leave the game, it just leaves more work for the ones left. Also you have a pirate cove on the west side of town and can see the monsters from in town from time to time.

*As to the claim about the dungeon being made archer spots, I have seen plenty of warriors camping in Akaltuts to pg hunt that are not archers.

*On the mines and yields, I am hoping this is resolved with Milestone II as well. We have new dedicated ore graphic rocks coming and soon all the mines and mining scripts will be redone. I would imagine resource influx will be controlled by the amount of ore rocks of a type instead of how much rock they spew out in relation to stone.

On a personal note I would like to say, I do my best obviously for some it is not good enough and never will be. I work for the game overall and for the good of it, not for the good of one town. I actually have characters I play in every town. One of my main characters is a Cadomyrian and warrior. And while it may seem nothing gets done for Cadomyr, several things have been offered but have been turned down. I have a policy to not change or add to a towns homeland without approval from the GM. Mapping wise there are several things that need tweaked there.

For what its worth here is what is in the works dungeon wise, all are in various stages of development and not all are my personal tasks and do note nothing is near Galmair:

1) Fox Den - a small repeatable quest based dungeon where you can feed some fox pups - hopefully to come soon and located in Elstree
2)Dragon Cave - The dragon cave was redone and a NPC and quest developed - Ready and waiting on a GM Launch
3)Ronagon Dungeon - A small dungeon submission based on my thread located near wonderland and is nearly ready for launching.
4)Dragorn Dungeon - A Dragoron cult dungeon in the mountains near Cadomyr, another small dungeon submission. Map work is done and it awaits the scripts and npcs.
5)Pools of Confligaration - A mid level dungeon for Cadomyr that will be positioned near the town - Work on this dungeon was slowed because of map issues and graphic problems, until they can be resolved it wont be opened as I refuse to open a buggy dungeon.
6)Survivalist island - still in the early stages and a long ways off, a hunger games inspired dungeon, islands of various levels of monsters where you go in with the clothing on your back and fight for your gear and everything and can keep it in a depot there for future trips in. This one is probably at least a year out due to the massive amount of work to be done and the fact I am trying to help with the Milestone II work now. This dungeon will not be located near any town in fact the entrance will likely be positioned near the Hempty so neutral to all.

If you have small dungeon idea please send them to me in a pm, feel free to mail me maps to eviepryler@gmail.com. Over half of the dungeons listed above were concepts or ideas someone submitted. Sure everything may not go in as you in visioned it, but nothing ever goes in how I forsee it in the beginning either. There are always changes made numerous times in the development process for rules, design solidity, or other reasons. While it may not seem like anything is being done it is. Things just take time. Akaltut's took three people over year to accomplish as an example.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Kugar »

Those dungeons sound awesome! I'm especially look forward to Survivalist island. You guys come up with some pretty cool ideas I have to say.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by CJK »

This is really just related because people keep talking about NPC merchants in this thread. Also, I feel like people choose towns for largely RP reasons, not mechanical, but that's all whatever.

What if we had citizen status in towns affect trade rates with that town's NPCs? For example, A Galmairian trying to buy things in Cadomyr would face raised rates compared to Cadomyrians. The same effect can be applied to selling, of course. Shoot, you could even put the difference into the town's tax income as a form of tariffs or something. Maybe even let town leaders control the tariff levels for each other town, as a way of having economic pressure. It would yield similar results to what Fooser mentioned about having the leverage to bar the gates, but without it being quite so stagnating to the other side's economy.

I never really trade much with NPCs (hence the perpetual poverty of every character I've ever played :lol: ) so I don't really know how such a thing would be received.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Djironnyma »

Annabeth wrote: Furthermore, while it seems that the Runewick leaders can be absent without repercussion, in Cadomyr you have to remain active and hold events to keep your position or you will soon lose it.
Who is absent? While it is right that most Runewickplayers i know doesnt play atm as much as likly (mostly cause the ehat), noone is total absent. Runewicks profs lost their rank too if they dont follow their dutys.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Nitram »

Tyan Masines wrote:
Annabeth wrote:
Tyan Masines wrote: So devs can rewrite the whole crafting system
That's a part of one of the current milestones on Mantis.
I am aware, I am saying that there is an easier, faster solution for the problem until the milestone has been reached.
Just as a side note: The rewriting of the crafting system is done right now with a very high priority. To my knowledge Silverwing, Evie, Estralis, vilarion and myself are currently contributing to this task.
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Teflon »

Annabeth wrote:
Zephyrius wrote:
Q-wert wrote: Leadership Ranks



Current Leadership ranks:


Galmair:
  • 1x Lvl 10
    3x Lvl 9
Runewick:
  • 1x Lvl 9
    2x Lvl 8
Cadomyr:
  • 1x Lvl 9
    1x Lvl 8
    (1x Lvl 8 upcoming)

Do take note that Galmair's chancellors are elected and thus prone to rotation among characters. Runewick and Cadomyr's positions are pretty much permanent and don't have to do anything to keep their posts. Furthermore, the level 10 post in Galmair is a GM position.

On the whole, yes: I think a lot needs changing in regards to the rank system and it has been under discussion by the GMs.
While PO Oxiana is a GM, the character is still a player character that he will be able to keep if he resigns as GM, unless something has changed there? So him being a GM doesn't justify the rank 10. Although I'm not saying the character himself does not deserve the honor of it after all his work, this is all on the ooc side of things about the gem balancing.

Furthermore, while it seems that the Runewick leaders can be absent without repercussion, in Cadomyr you have to remain active and hold events to keep your position or you will soon lose it.

However, on the topic of GM given ranks in general I don't really see why we need three ranks for it. One rank that is GM-given should suffice for the role such a rank has, and it would avoid further discussions about gem-gain as the difference would be much more minor than it is now with rank 9s(such as my own character) and rank 10s(such as Oxiana) whos gem income is significantly larger than a rank 7.

Even though I am of the opinion that GM-given ranks should not give extra gems than the highest player-reached rank, as it may lead to people thinking it is GM-favoritism or players who struggle to get to these roles merely for the gem gain just to then slack off in these roles and not really contribute to the game at all.
There are actually 2 chars who have rank 10. Don't forget that the Don has two hands. ;)
Those three ranks were created without any specific plan as far as I know and completely left to likes of GMs and we try to keep them as rare as possible. I don't see any lack of fairness and big balance issue here. A much bigger problems in terms of balance are existing or non-existing daily quests (independence to acquire a higher ranks in a similar time period) and money sinks (rented vs non-rented access to rooms and buildings; election system in the original design (now that money is kept in the game)).
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Re: Galmair is op: A Rant on Developer Favouritism

Post by Q-wert »

For those caring about gem output: I had a look on a statistic another made (by having one lvl2 char in each settlement and noting down every monthly income) for about the period of Foosers nobility in Cadomyr. While I don't remember the exact numbers, the graph was quite unmistakeable.

Galmair had a rather steady gain (certain people threw a bag or two of rings into the donation pit each month, from what I know),
Runewick had equal, but more 'bumpy' curve of income (due to regular donation sprees by the Bearers)

And Cadomyr?
Cadomyr basically had no noteable income of gems, with two extreme exception months catapulting it about 1/3rd ahead of all others in total gain.
The first month was me throwing down over a thousand gold of dungeon grind money on the donation field.
The second month was the donation spree initiated by Fooser before he left. 500 gold (which I suspect to be about 1/3rd of all that month) of that was gifted by me. Again, my gold was from grinding dungeons.

For the time that I had a look on the output, Galmair hat a way greater gain from goldsmithing than Cadomyr.

If there would be official numbers on the matter for a more extended period of time, those would be enlightening.
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