Do we still have jail, and...

[Hew Keenaxe]

I was just wondering because of a post talking about banning. Jail should be used more and banning less. The terms should be short, very short at first, longer for repeat offenders like me. And I also once escaped, with GM approval, but I hope the manner in which I did was not fixed. It wasn't a bug so should be left IG. No jail should be completely safe from escape. Also, maybes some low level wandering monsters should be included in the jail. For the entertainment of those jailed and as a form of punishment. If you die, you re-spawn back in jail. Food and water should be provided andmost importantly, town leaders can use it to a point. Only short sentences. And not back to back. That would take a GM to sentence. Banning just makes people want to quit in my opinion. This game cant afford even one player going away mad.

[Djironnyma]

The jail (its more a forced work camp) and the banning from towns are pure IG punishments.

Banning a player from the game temp or permanent is just case if the player make an heavy rule break

[Hew Keenaxe]

Ok, then this is a problem. I've been both banned and jailed. Jail had an end date, ban was permanent. If you think banning is a temporary solusion, you aint never been banned. It means losing all your stuff, no ability to craft or get gems without the occasional drop. No way back in.
Jail, means, you sit and think what you have done you bad boy. But then you can come back, your stuff is still here waiting for you. Big difference.
If you want people to quit, banning is your way. Just the name does that. It excludes. Jail is a penalty. But it cant be very long. If I have to endure a long sentence, I will just go find another game.
Yes, we want people to respect the way this game was and is designed for, but educate, dont run them off.

[Djironnyma]

Please differ you and your char.

if YOU got banned you broke a game rule as player.

If your char get banned from one or more town and an IG matter for what your char have to seek ig a solution. Its want that a char have big problems if hes banned from all towns, any char should avoid that. If your char are once in such a situation you char have to seek for people who speak with their town leaders to let him in the town(s) again. Playing a char who piss town(-leaders) to much can have heavy consequenses - so your char should seek to be friendly at least to one town / - leader.

[Hew Keenaxe]

Please differ you and your char.

if YOU got banned you broke a game rule as player.

If your char get banned from one or more town and an IG matter for what your char have to seek ig a solution. Its want that a char have big problems if hes banned from all towns, any char should avoid that. If your char are once in such a situation you char have to seek for people who speak with their town leaders to let him in the town(s) again. Playing a char who piss town(-leaders) to much can have heavy consequenses - so your char should seek to be friendly at least to one town / - leader.

Wow, you just dont get it, I hope it is a language barrier.
I aint bitching about being banned, me or my CHARACTER. I'm suggesting that banning is a poor way to enforce game rules, and if we do need to, jail, with proper control is a much better route. I just used my experience with both as an example.

[Jupiter]

I'm suggesting that banning is a poor way to enforce game rules, and if we do need to, jail, with proper control is a much better route.

No. If one isbanned because of breaking game rules, the one getting punished is the player. Because he behaved in a way that is not wished within the community of this game.
Jail is an ingame punishment for your character; not for the player.

We certainly don't allow players who are unable to follow the game rules to compensate their unwished behaviour by ingame events like putting their characters into jail.

[Rincewind]

Hew...

If you break Game rules, this is a clear misbehavour of the Player and therefore the player needs to be punished.

If your Character breaks In Game Law, your charachkter possibly gets punished by other Characters in the Game.

To mix those two things up, is a horrible fail in Roleplay.
Rince

[Hew Keenaxe]

I'm suggesting that banning is a poor way to enforce game rules, and if we do need to, jail, with proper control is a much better route.

No. If one isbanned because of breaking game rules, the one getting punished is the player. Because he behaved in a way that is not wished within the community of this game.
Jail is an ingame punishment for your character; not for the player.

We certainly don't allow players who are unable to follow the game rules to compensate their unwished behaviour by ingame events like putting their characters into jail.

Ok, maybe this has been taken out of text. I was refering to town bans, not player bans. If a player does all , the things, emotes, waits, talks, you know, RP's but is a bad guy. He should go to jail. But banning him, just discourages him from any RP, except just be a nice guy. We have enough of those. If Illarion is supposed to be a moral lesson, then kick them all. But if we want some color, something that gets our blood pressure up, then we have to be easy with the punishments. Banning is just saying, "Go away" and they will.

[Estralis Seborian]

So your character was never sentenced to work in the prison mine but got an individual town ban instead? If this is a common habit, we need to consider to remove the individual ban. Or are outlaws generally not allowed in the banning town?

[Hew Keenaxe]

So your character was never sentenced to work in the prison mine but got an individual town ban instead? If this is a common habit, we need to consider to remove the individual ban. Or are outlaws generally not allowed in the banning town?

Been both, prisoned and banned. so I know what I speak of. Jail is reasonable, bans are not. Unless it is a serious game rule violation, not an IG RP you are a bad guy thing.

Ban says go away. And they will.

[Rincewind]

Your character was banned from Galmair because you picked to fight with people who got more politacal power than you. That was after Hew wa sent to jail twice and the Don gave him an ultimatum alredy.

After your ban your char practiced unacceptable behaviour, to other citizens. And this drove you far away from the chance to get your ban lifted within any reasonable ammount of time. What outcome have you expected? Even those who tried to stand with Hew after his ban, gave up on him. Because of his irrational aggressive behavior. My Character will never trust Hew again, therefore never vouch for him to unlock the Ban. You brought this situation on your char yourself. To expect others to just forget all the attacks and the kills would be not accurate Roleplay in my view.

Outcast live is harsh and people tend to avoid your char beacuse they expect an assult. But they have good reason to do so. Especially your char worked hard on his reputation as mad-attacker. Everyone IG will be carefull if a stranger dwarf appears...

And once again I have to say: game rule violations are OOC! They have nothing to do with the Moral code of your character. Why do you still keep mention it?

[Hew Keenaxe]

Your character was banned from Galmair because you picked to fight with people who got more politacal power than you. That was after Hew wa sent to jail twice and the Don gave him an ultimatum alredy.

After your ban your char practiced unacceptable behaviour, to other citizens. And this drove you far away from the chance to get your ban lifted within any reasonable ammount of time. What outcome have you expected? Even those who tried to stand with Hew after his ban, gave up on him. Because of his irrational aggressive behavior. My Character will never trust Hew again, therefore never vouch for him to unlock the Ban. You brought this situation on your char yourself. To expect others to just forget all the attacks and the kills would be not accurate Roleplay in my view.

Outcast live is harsh and people tend to avoid your char beacuse they expect an assult. But they have good reason to do so. Especially your char worked hard on his reputation as mad-attacker. Everyone IG will be carefull if a stranger dwarf appears...

And once again I have to say: game rule violations are OOC! They have nothing to do with the Moral code of your character. Why do you still keep mention it?

Really? are you that deaf or daft?
I'm not, repeat NOT complaining about a ban. I or any of my characters have one. NONE. But I do Have some knowledge of bans and jail. All I was asking at first was does jail still exist? Then wen ton to give my opinion that it is better than bans. For reasons listed. But if you are still but hurt about things in the past. GET A SHRINK!

[Jupiter]

are you that deaf or daft? [...] GET A SHRINK!

...

I guess the topic can be locked now.

[Alytys Lamar]

Okay - let me say this straight - there is no need to flame gainst each other

YOU are responsible for your RP. I played UO Shards 18+. If you did chose to play a bad guy you had to bear the consequence if caught. There was even a death penalty - means the Character was banned from the game complete. To be a bad guy isn't easy - maybe consider to play him a bit more shady then violent.

I can only say again - you have to accept the consequence when you play such a character. Think through before ( you could split your stuff for example ). Maybe the complete ban in towns is a bit harsh, but I think still reasonable.

[Hew Keenaxe]

Again, you assume I'm bitching about a penalty. I have none. None, either jail or bans. Just a topic for consideration. Banning is bad for the game in my opinion. Outright banning, town banning. Jail, can be moderated and be seen as reasonable. No need for you all to flame me as a person with a grudge. Grow up.

[Hew Keenaxe]

This all came to my mind when another post I made in proposals brought up banning in the responses. I would provide the link but dont know how. I am against banning but all but the most extreme cases. Which is why i asked about jail.

[Achae Eanstray]

I think the question has been answered and the topic is ready to be closed. Let me know if for any reason you wish to add to it.

Achae

Opened today at request of thread starter in hopes of allowing more feedback. Just a reminder of Illarion rules:

Respect and common courtesy are as important as good communication;

http://illarion.org/illarion/us_rules.php#code

Thanks!

Achae

[Rincewind]

Your character was banned from Galmair because you picked to fight with people who got more politacal power than you. That was after Hew wa sent to jail twice and the Don gave him an ultimatum alredy.

After your ban your char practiced unacceptable behaviour, to other citizens. And this drove you far away from the chance to get your ban lifted within any reasonable ammount of time. What outcome have you expected? Even those who tried to stand with Hew after his ban, gave up on him. Because of his irrational aggressive behavior. My Character will never trust Hew again, therefore never vouch for him to unlock the Ban. You brought this situation on your char yourself. To expect others to just forget all the attacks and the kills would be not accurate Roleplay in my view.

Outcast live is harsh and people tend to avoid your char beacuse they expect an assult. But they have good reason to do so. Especially your char worked hard on his reputation as mad-attacker. Everyone IG will be carefull if a stranger dwarf appears...

And once again I have to say: game rule violations are OOC! They have nothing to do with the Moral code of your character. Why do you still keep mention it?

Really? are you that deaf or daft?
I'm not, repeat NOT complaining about a ban. I or any of my characters have one. NONE. But I do Have some knowledge of bans and jail. All I was asking at first was does jail still exist? Then wen ton to give my opinion that it is better than bans. For reasons listed. But if you are still but hurt about things in the past. GET A SHRINK!

On review I have to apologize. My post should have been more about your proposals and not about "when is it reasonable a char ends up as outlaw?"

My point was to show how any char could end up in the situation you did. A situation which is in my point of view absolutly justified. I agree if you say a character should be punished with jail as long as possible. But if a character appears to become a threat to all other cititzens, how can his return after jail be justified? I wanted to point out, that every char who acts "evil" in public will end up as outlaw sooner or later, and I wouldn't change that (that's just reasonable and logic). I would rather advice those Chars to deal with their new Situation somhow.

I took your character as example, becouse he was the only one I knew the story about. I never saw your post as a complaining one. Neither I took any offenses like the CMs did. Your origin intend was totally riped appart... all your proposals. My condolences for that, this forum makes me wanna rage as well from time to time.


Rince