Current Game Thoughts

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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

So if I understand correctly, being idle in game is the same as not logging in at all. I'm not sure that's the best approach.

I'm comparing it to the old system where you could log in and just wait around. If no one came along, you still got the benefit of your skillgain capacity being restored while you waited and folded laundry or something. No time was really wasted and eventually if no one came along you could at least do a little skill grinding. In this system as I understand it, a player has to be constantly giving game input for the online time to count (ie opening bags, walking around randomly, typing nonsense to NPCs, etc - or yes, ideally roleplaying if you can find another player somewhere).

I won't pretend to understand the complexities of coding Illarion because I'm surely mystified and awed by it but I personally think that online time should be rewarded. Players shouldn't have to also participate in foolishness to get the online credit when no one else is around. If the server's essentially empty which it mostly always is, there should still be a reason to log in. I don't think this system is providing that motivation to players. It might be worth looking at reducing that MC during offline and idle time at least until the player base can support the concept fully.

*pacing in the wilderness*
Necral
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Necral »

Please don't bring back the skill cap, it sucked. I'd consider myself a casual gamer here and I really don't have the time to spend years getting good at something because these days I'd just lose interest. As it is now I can go and get it out the way quickly (if I can be bothered) and get on with rp. Maybe the new system isn't perfect but it's certainly better than before (yeah, I played for a few years). Everything is transparent now. You can play how you want and you're not punished for it like before. Yeah, there is always a punishment, but if I want to log in and skill for a few hours because there is no one online i can do that, instead of just logging out and playing something else.

I haven't run into any problems with the MC points yet, but it sounds like a deterrent for jack-of-all-trade characters (unless I am horribly mistaken), which can only be a good thing? Plenty of character slots :wink: .

To put it in to context: The experience I have is that I can skill constantly and have never run in to any stoppage. It's just continuous. Whether intended or not, that's how it is for me.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Kamilar, indeed, if you are totally idle because you went shopping or fell asleep, yes, that time does not count. But if you play the game and playing here means "do something once in five minutes", you have a benefit. The old system did NOT reward online time in any way, you just had to idle(!) to be able to skill again after some time. You could not play on. This has changed now. Also, if you logged in and just talked, that time was wasted (because MC was 0). Now it does not matter what you do ingame, you always have a benefit.

The system makes sure that every player, regardless of his behaviour, gains the same amount of skill over time in a long term observation. Want to fight monsters all day long? Fine! Want to talk to your friends for hours? Great! Want to do a big mix of everything? Also fine! After X hours ingame, you got the same skill. So you can communicate, craft or just explore, does not matter.

The old system you had to know by heart to get best results. Normal players that simply log in and play got not much skill because they hit an obscure cap and were forced to stop playing. C'mon, if you want that back, reconsider! Once again, if you want to stand around and wait for others to log in, you can do so and it even has a benefit! Always! Just do something once in five minutes and do not go shopping ;-).
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

So right now, I'm setting a timer and every few minutes taking some kind of action while I clean my house and cook for guests that are coming later. It's kind of silly, but that's what the system demands so I'm doing it because I'm just that silly. Mostly I just want to try things out so I'm motivated for the moment but what about players like Salathe that don't bother logging in at all because their MC is now so high and they can't be bothered to go through the goofiness required to lower it again and the short time they have to spend in game is rather useless as a result? I think Jupiter's idea of having the MC slowly regenerate during time offline is a reasonable compromise and worth considering at least until there are consistently more players to interact with while you regenerate. I think the overall concept is elegant but the application is tricky because of the low player base. Online time is not rewarded if you can't find any other players and have to ramble around opening and shutting your bag in order for the game to recognize that you took the trouble of logging in.

And another question ... how long do I need to pace in the wilderness before my MC is reset again?
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Estralis Seborian »

...what reset? There is no reset! This is not the old system.

Any minute spent ingame lowers your points. If you are not ingame, you have no benefit. So get ingame! There is no need to do "nothing", you can craft, fight,... There is, again, no need and no benefit in ideling!
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Velisai
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Velisai »

Kamilar wrote:And another question ... how long do I need to pace in the wilderness before my MC is reset again?
The less, the better. If you can't find anyone to RP with, you could just as well powergame all that time you'd spend pointlessly running around. The skill result will be the same, but you'll have more stuff getting done.
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

There's no reset? I'm having a lot of trouble understanding this and it's making me feel kinda dumb so I apologize for all the questions but the MC goes up to a maximum level and it just stays there forever? :?
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Evie
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Evie »

Kamilar, let me try and help. I had an awful time with MC on one of my characters well two. Almost deleted them in exasperation. As I understand it (I could still be wrong!)) it works like this:

Your MC will never stop growing, there is no cap.
Every learning action raises MC and your learning, the amount learned is based on your MC level.
Lowering your MC occurs by doing and activity which you don't learn from, walking or rping with emotes. Something I do with my character to lower MC is to map hunt b/c it takes awhile to walk around finding the spot and finding it and digging it up. That way i am not doing nothing but the characters mind rests. Armor skills and gathering skills raise MC probably the fastest of all things. So when doing those things maybe give your character a break to do something else? Just thoughts and ideas from someone thats been in your shoes before.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Estralis Seborian »

No, MC points are reduced over time, no matter what you do. The more points you have, the more get reduced. All actions generate points at the same pace. Actions you learn nothing from generate no points. It is really simpel, check out the code!
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Estralis Seborian »

And there is an upper and lower cap for MC points.
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Evie
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Evie »

:D , I have tried to read the code and my eyes crossed and my mind went to mush! Thanks for additional info!
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

Evie wrote::D , I have tried to read the code and my eyes crossed and my mind went to mush! Thanks for additional info!
Same for me. I'm not smart enough to read the code. :lol:

Thank you for explaining it though. I think I'm starting to get it. If only we could explain it to Salathe... :(
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Teflon »

Hello all,
I am back and want to reply to some posts here and share my expierence and my view on gm vs player leadership, sandbox approach and I also like to help with the understanding our current skill system. Please keep in mind, I am talking about Galmair and it is only my opinion and not an official staff-announcement.


GM Leadership

I have been playing the Don for 1 1/2 years now. Except of Silverwing, no other GM has spent a longer time period on a faction leader. Definitely with some downs, where I pissed players but hopefully also with some hights. ;) Anyway, in the beginning, Face and I were running Galmair. One of the first things we did was introducing those positions, which we still have more or less. Some were our ideas, some were created by players. The idea behind those positions was to create rp-possibilities and also to share responsibility and power with players. They should act autonomously as much as possible. Create and draft an army as they wanted, rent flats as they wanted, hold masses or events, etc. We would have supported them where ever we could. However, it never really worked. I can understand that some where scared that they would been overruled by the Don and hesitated, and some would like to have options without being only limited to such a position. That was then also the reason why we introduced the chancellor system in Galmair. Moving power and decisions to the chancellors away from the Don. After two periods, I still don't feel we are there where I would like to be. The first was okay, the second less but now we make progress again.

My idea of the Don was always similar to what Nitram mentioned above. The Don is a tool. Nothing else. It should help to keep the communication between GMs and players IG as much as possible. Those with responsibilities and power (first position holders, now chancellors) meet the Don and share their plans and issues. If those plans do not contradict our rules or the setting and do not cause a huge harm to the game, the Don does not stop those plans and let them do. For instance, if I had made Galmair's tunnel with ignoring any of you, it would look very different now. ;)

The advantage that I see here are mainly two. First, it helps those players in charge. Regardless of the system, you cannot avoid communication with the stuff. If you do it via this IG-tool aka Don or oocly with a GM, does not change the fact, that any GM can always stop your plan, if it does not fit to our rules and setting. I think everyone can agree here. If you wanted to build something pre-vbu, you needed permission and someone who helped you there. I do not know how often I heard during my player career the ooc-sentence ig "((We have to wait for the building-master; The GMs did not allow that; etc.)). In other words, without a "GM-ruler", you will always have to turn ooc if you don't want to take the blame for your char. Now, you can blame the Don for denying your ideas and stay IG. Other example, if players request a Sirani shrine in Galmair, there are several options in both cases (gm and player ruler) with the same end result. In case of GM rulership, I say via the Don no. In case of a player rulership, I just say no. Or in both cases, I could allow you this project and support you but turn up as Nargun at some point and make it impossible to realise. Something, the Don would have warned you before. While I know some players would have enjoyed the Nargun event, I also know many players who would immediatelly start a flame war.

Second, if something goes wrong with those chancellors (becoming inactive, creating a mess, piss everyone, whatever), it is also easy for us GMs to step in without creating such a hated idea as the prince was for instance. Troll's Bane's rulership did mainly not change because there was a great well played rp plot but because the leadering chars became inactive for whatever reasons (busy RL, bored, pissed by other players, etc.). I do not doubt that this resulting chaos ment excitment for some but it also ment frustration by many others. In particular when leaders just disappeared and this can and will always happen. Even among GMs as Cadomyr proves. :?

So, in my understanding, the Don functions as help and as safty - a guardian of his town. I do not deny that his current state goes far beyond and I make mistakes. I am also in a learning progress. Sometimes, it looks to me that nothing goes without him despite I would really prefer to play him just as those two functions mentioned above. I also have to share my current perception, that it feels like we go into the direction of this guardian. No idea if it is just because of the current all time low player activity and silly season or the good job done by current Chancellors and other players who took more responsibility. I hope the latter. :)

As said, whether there is a gm or a player the highest ruler, any plans will need to fit to our rules or the setting we currently have. Furthermore, many things players have requested cannot be easily changed by me because I also have to consider rules and setting. I cannot add or remove tools in Galmair, change gods, build outside town, add countless depots, etc. Those actions have to be within the town's setting and also be balanced between towns. The existence of the Don helps to deny such requests but is not the reason. In other words, in my opinion, it is not about who is officially the leader. The UK has the queen and all that she is mainly allowed to do once a year is to read some lines someone else wrote for her. It is much more about how flexibel we are with our settings.


Sandbox approach

Don't get this wrong, I still think that our three different towns with different values and ideas can be a fun despite our small player base we currently have. But maybe we are able to make them more flexible without allowing everyone everything. For instance, yes you can build a shirne for Adron in Galmair but he might not accept that this new shrine is devoted to him. You might be able to convince him that he leaves his current shrine and takes yours but it will take you a some effort and only for temporary time until someone else does this for another town. It might also be possible to add all tools to each town but restrict access to ressources. Towns would have to claim them for themselves and defend them against other towns. It should not be difficult to set this like it will become more difficult for the holding facion with every day while it becomes easier for other towns to claim it for themselves. It might be possible to also make it more difficult with every source of ressources you own. For instance, if you focus on mines, you will have troubles to aquire forests, farms and other ressources you can use for your economy. The limitation of ressources would not only create differences between towns but allow more flexibility since it will be the players who decide for what ressoureces they go and it would also cause more conflicts between towns.

Even if we do not want to change leaders, ethics and law, we should probably reconsider if we want to allow sub-laws at least (although i see already the don's fears about that such additions :P). It might go hand in hand with those who request changes might also have to do it themselves or ask for help to realise them (scripts, maps, website, etc.). It might be reasonable therefore, to rephrase information about our factions more timeless, so that those things can be changed ig easier. There might be a queen but the monarchy might turn into a parlamentary monarchy. Galmair might change from chancellor to something else. And even the current voiting system is not written into stone, despite I think it is much more fun than ordinary elections. I am open for many things. In particular if they create fun for everyone.


Conflicts between towns/Death of leaders

Regarding conflicts and death of leaders I also want to add some lines. Some argue here that it would not be possible to convince the Don for instance to go into a conflict with anther town. This is just wrong. Actually, just one year ago, Semtex and I tried to stir a conflict and the result was a lot of complains from the player's side. So, we stopped this again. It is not that we don't like conflicts but that most players prefer anything else in comparision to player versus player conflicts. Boring or not boring, but most want to be friends with everyone. I am trying now to create a threat with an external force. Not as obvious as Silverwing but I do. Something more for shady characters but it needs some time to develop. In particular since some of those chars who were more involved just quit recently. So, I have to change everything again but stay tuned.

I have a problem to understand that some complain about leaders and their "immortality". Well, what for your chars does count, the same must count for those leaders. No other player can force your char to die if you do not want them to die. Why should that not count for those leaders? If the stuff does not want the death of those chars, it has to be accepted as well as it has to be accepted that your chars do not die without your permission. If this causes frustration, something is wrong in my opinion. Yes, most of them have higher attributes than your chars but they can be ghosted. As far as I remember, the Don was sent to the cross once (monster) and Krunk twice (player).

Your char's concern, however, should be more other chars who strive for power. As mentioned above, if you are Chancellor, you can shape Galmair and Illarion as much as it is within the rules and setting.


MC points

The old systems seems to be still very present in your minds. :) As already said, there is no skill cap anymore. The only things that matter now are that you are online and that you do anything. Walk, write, craft, fight...whatever... in the end, you will have the same skill gain. For instance, if you fight for ten hours or just walk for ten hours and have a small fight in the end of your day, you will have the same skill gain. Only advantage of the former example is that this player will have more loot than the other player. Theoretically, it would be possible to play ten years without skilling any skill but then max the skill of your char with a single click. MC points just store the information how you play the game. If I would be you, I would just forget about them and play the game, because the only thing that helps skilling is playing the game. Please, do not forget, you have to perform required action for skilling then. If you and the monster you are fighting do not have fitting skill levels, you will not learn from fighting it.
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Velisai
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Velisai »

Thanks for taking the time to write this. This really helps see things from a GM perspective. I'd like to respond to a few of the points, since I've already adressed many of the topics here and it feels like some of it is referring to what I wrote before.
The Don is a tool. Nothing else. It should help to keep the communication between GMs and players IG as much as possible.
The Don is also a character with a personality though and you and other GMs have played him that way, which is a good thing. (I've had players from other towns comment positively on the way the Don is being played too.) IC, he is a very powerful dwarf with considerable wealth, loyal employees and most importantly 2 of 7 extremely powerful magical artifacts. This isn't a tool, but somebody most people would be very careful not to piss off. And this is where GM rulers are becoming problematic. The main difference between a GM and a player controlled character is that huge difference in actual, raw power. No matter who ruled Troll's Bane, you could much more easily disagree with them on any kind of serious issue and openly work against them. The problem is not so much that they cannot be ghosted or killed, but that you know the outcome of any conflict with them will inevitably end in your character's ban from town, imprisonment or death. That your character will lose, no matter what effort you make or what kind of support you gather for the cause. I suspect this is a very important reason for the lack of in-town conflict we are experiencing.

So my point is, if the NPC leaders are only tools to avoid ooc communication, I'd rather have the ooc communication. If they are supposed to further in game events and create conflict or other exciting situations, then they should be played as much as the GMs can/want to. The setting, meaning the gems of pwnage and other powers of these chars, are something that can be considered separately and is actually the vastly more important issue.

As for shifting more authority to the players, this is still an ongoing process as you say and we will have to see where this takes us. My char never ruled more than a house with a couple fields before and I have no RL experience with being a figure of authority at all. Some players might do better than others at actually using what power they have, so we can expect some ups and downs on the way. Either way, time will tell whether this will work out as planned in a general manner. I expect this to have some positive impact, since I didn't see much of a problem with player run towns in the first place. I'd say the worst thing that can happen to the game is boredom and indifference. IC conflict occasionally spilling over into OOC is an indicator that people are emotionally invested in the game events. As long as we don't let those arguments get really ugly and drive players away, I don't see a problem.

Actually, just one year ago, Semtex and I tried to stir a conflict and the result was a lot of complains from the player's side. So, we stopped this again. It is not that we don't like conflicts but that most players prefer anything else in comparision to player versus player conflicts. Boring or not boring, but most want to be friends with everyone.
There must be reasons for this and I think I can identify at least two. As I mentioned before, the strong need for trade of magic gems, resources and crafting products between towns makes wars and even personal conflicts (partly due to the small player base) much less desirable from an IC point of view than they would be without that element. Another reason might be that our old characters have a history from before the VBU and going from friends to slaughtering each other in a war between towns they just arrived in, would have been a little too hard to believably pull off. Many are slowly creating more and more tension between the towns however and I think this cause for peace will be eliminated in a couple more in game years.

It might be very interesting to explore what other reasons there are for players to have given up on PvP conflicts, so we can work on lowering the barriers and form ideas to encourage a little more violence and more importantly other forms of competition, that is rooted in IC differences. The one Mantis task related to this, regarding magic gem drops from player kills during inter town wars is not nearly enough to turn the tide here and has raised concerns that it may create the wrong kind of conflict. Personally, I too find conflict for philosophical, ethical or religious reasons much more interesting than for material gain. I'd like to hear from GMs and players what exactly was complained about in the past, before or after the VBU, and what concerns and ideas others have regarding this issue. Please speak up. It can only help develop a better, more exciting game.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Teflon wrote:MC points

(...) Theoretically, it would be possible to play ten years without skilling any skill but then max the skill of your char with a single click.

Thanks to Teflon for describing the skill system! I see that many are confused because still think in terms of the old system. Many seem to think that MC points are bad and that they have to reduce them to be able to skill again. Wrong! See Teflon's description. But the quoted sentence is not 100% true, because I added a threshold for extreme cases so that the described effect (get all skill with one click) is not going to happen ;-).
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by rakust dorenstkzul »

Teflon wrote:Theoretically, it would be possible to play ten years without skilling any skill but then max the skill of your char with a single click.
Watch your back, Matt. I'm coming for you.
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Mephistopheles »

To elaborate on the mc points, while it seems better to lower your mc points to lowest possible (I'm assuming 0) then skill, it takes immense ammount of time to lower it that far, and on top of that you'll only get so many levels because your mc at the lowest point raises very fast. so say your at lv 60 in a single skill, you get lowest possible mc, you'll be at about 78ish before you start learning very slowly again. So in a way it's better than the old system because it rewards people for taking their time and roleplaying when they can instead of running off to skill then once they reach their daily cap either just idle or log off.

Honestly its a good system and don't think it needs any changes, props to Estralis for doing it. There is basically no possibility for abuse as well, it was a very well thought out system.
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Pugnacious »

Mephistopheles wrote:To elaborate on the mc points, while it seems better to lower your mc points to lowest possible (I'm assuming 0) then skill, it takes immense ammount of time to lower it that far, and on top of that you'll only get so many levels because your mc at the lowest point raises very fast. so say your at lv 60 in a single skill, you get lowest possible mc, you'll be at about 78ish before you start learning very slowly again. So in a way it's better than the old system because it rewards people for taking their time and roleplaying when they can instead of running off to skill then once they reach their daily cap either just idle or log off.

Honestly its a good system and don't think it needs any changes, props to Estralis for doing it. There is basically no possibility for abuse as well, it was a very well thought out system.
If I play one hour a day, just to skill, then play four hours on the weekend, it doesn't work so good.
I will quickly reach a point where my skill gain is very slow. Meaning my one hour gains me very little. So come the weekend, I have gained very little. If there was some lowering of points while logged off, My one hour times would be worthwhile and my character would then be able to show growth for my next RP weekend. For those that don't mind hours of endless grinding I'm sure it works fine.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Pugnacious wrote:I will quickly reach a point where my skill gain is very slow. Meaning my one hour gains me very little.
Sorry, but you did not understand what Teflon wrote: Your one hour is worth as much as any other hour. You do not reach a point of slow skillgain quickly. The system responds rather slowly to changes in player behaviour.

Again: There is no need to cool down your points. Because while you do, you learn absolutely nothing. You could as well skill! You can play in whatever way you want, just forget about these points. Only the invested time matters, not what you do during that time.
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Teflon »

Estralis Seborian wrote:Only the invested time matters, not what you do during that time.
Except of being afk and idling... ;)
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Teflon »

Velisai wrote:
The Don is a tool. Nothing else. It should help to keep the communication between GMs and players IG as much as possible.
The Don is also a character with a personality though and you and other GMs have played him that way, which is a good thing. (I've had players from other towns comment positively on the way the Don is being played too.) IC, he is a very powerful dwarf with considerable wealth, loyal employees and most importantly 2 of 7 extremely powerful magical artifacts. This isn't a tool, but somebody most people would be very careful not to piss off. And this is where GM rulers are becoming problematic. The main difference between a GM and a player controlled character is that huge difference in actual, raw power. No matter who ruled Troll's Bane, you could much more easily disagree with them on any kind of serious issue and openly work against them. The problem is not so much that they cannot be ghosted or killed, but that you know the outcome of any conflict with them will inevitably end in your character's ban from town, imprisonment or death. That your character will lose, no matter what effort you make or what kind of support you gather for the cause. I suspect this is a very important reason for the lack of in-town conflict we are experiencing.

So my point is, if the NPC leaders are only tools to avoid ooc communication, I'd rather have the ooc communication. If they are supposed to further in game events and create conflict or other exciting situations, then they should be played as much as the GMs can/want to. The setting, meaning the gems of pwnage and other powers of these chars, are something that can be considered separately and is actually the vastly more important issue.

As for shifting more authority to the players, this is still an ongoing process as you say and we will have to see where this takes us. My char never ruled more than a house with a couple fields before and I have no RL experience with being a figure of authority at all. Some players might do better than others at actually using what power they have, so we can expect some ups and downs on the way. Either way, time will tell whether this will work out as planned in a general manner. I expect this to have some positive impact, since I didn't see much of a problem with player run towns in the first place. I'd say the worst thing that can happen to the game is boredom and indifference. IC conflict occasionally spilling over into OOC is an indicator that people are emotionally invested in the game events. As long as we don't let those arguments get really ugly and drive players away, I don't see a problem.
My sentence was probably not very well formulated. At least it misses a connection to the rest of the text. Communication is not the only reason. As mentioned later in my post, safty is another reason and of course we also use them to stir things. However, I agree, he is definitely a powerful person but I think, he should not make the main part of your revolutionary plans if you want to rule Galmair. They focus should be on the chancellors, because they are the government. No one runs a riot against the Queen of UK or the president of Germany but against the government in each country. So, against the prime minster or the chancelor. No idea what detailed powers Queen and the German president have but in Austria, where we have a similar system to Germany, the president is head of the army, appoints the chancellor after a parlamentery election, has to approve every law and still, nobody really cares about him, because none of our presidents has ever used their power to full extent because there was no reason for it. Our president functions as a guardian and if the government does not go completely wired, there is no reason for our president to step in. That is my idea of the Don. So, if you want to rule in Galmair, your opponent are the chancellors and all other chars who want to become one but not really the Don. Anyone can bribe him. ;)

The Don is part of the setting and if you want to replace or remove him, than the whole thing is not an ordinary game issue anymore but it becomes mainly a quest and definitely an OOC-issue, because it will not be only my decision but also the devs have to agree. So, it is a queston of the game setting as mentioned above. From a Don standpoint, we can ignore and accept many things. This is really no problem. If someone comes complain about a chancellor decision, he could easly argue that everyone had the chance to vote against those chancellors and will also have the chance again but for now he will accept them because a deal is a deal. On the other hand, if citizens put enough gold on the table and the chancellors can not hold themselves in their position...well, times have changed. ;) I think, you got my point.

However, if the Don does not agree with chancellor's suggestions, it is mainly because they either do not fit to the game setting or are against our rules. For instance, I mean, I have really no problem to play the Don like a manipulated Théoden in LOTR if Moshran fellows would take over openly the town until he and the town are rescued, which would definitely happen at some point because other players would expect it and run against them. However, we both know that it cannot happen because the game setting does not allow that you remove other shrines and replace them with Moshran shrines and so on, regardless if there is a Don or not. In particular because towns have to be save places according to our setting and no place ran by Moshran fellows is a save place (at least in my understanding of a true Moshran fellow). They would rob a newbie rather than support the newbie. And if someone runs amok and harms the fun of everyone, we will not hesitate to set this person outside the wall. So, either you stay hidden or you become an outlaw if you want to show your fellowship openly. That was even the case in good old Bane when the Temple took over. Or has anyone ever seen a Moshran temple in Bane? None of them really admited their fellowship pubicly. The difference was that even "outlaws" were supported pre-vbu but the game-setting does not allow that anymore in that sence you are used to it: No depots or tools in the wild, etc. This allowed them to hid in Hellsbriar and so on.

Anyway, I want to stress the following again. The Don as character should not hinder you. If you go too far, he will even pock you first before you really see consequences, but as long as you are within the game setting and rules, he will just watch and help you were he can.
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Velisai
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Velisai »

@Teflon: I get your point and playing a chancellor, will do my best to roll with the situation as it is. I didn't even have plans for any chars I ever played to become supreme rulers of some town. I'm simply concerned that the very safety you speak of is (or at least is perceived to be) too much for many kinds of evil, ambitious, rutheless characters to deal with and becoming an outlaw is no fun at all, so most players avoid such roles. This is really in no way your fault or something you as a GM can change on your own. The NPC rulers are only a small part of the game setting responsible for this and some other parts I mentioned are much more problematic.



The problem with skillgain is simply that casual players feel it is too slow for them compared to very active players. Offline cooldown could help this situation, but it is not as simple as it sounds, since the active players would profit from it as well. Once you start trying to scale skillgain with activity it gets complicated very quickly and you could instead simply give every char a set amount of points/week to distribute via the actions they take. This is good for players with little online time, but at the same time encourages creating chars who are only played as long as they can skill and left offline for the rest of the week.

We had the same complaints about slow skillgain with the old system. There are no simple solutions for this issue that I ever heard of in any kind of game that has skills and grinding of any kind. The new system however is much more flexible and actually helps casual players and Illaddicts alike by giving them the chance to spend much more of their time on RP instead of grinding. Taking the example of 5 hours/week online time, pre VBU you'd have to spend at least 3 of your 5 hours grinding in a rythm of 1h grind, 1h RP or idle, if you wanted to maximize skillgain. Now you can get the same results with 20 min of skilling and spend the other 4 hours and 40 minutes doing whatever you want. Plus, there is no worrying about when to grind and when to RP anymore. Seriously, this is easily the best feature of the VBU.
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Skaalib Drurr
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Skaalib Drurr »

Very interesting thread. This is a really cool game I used to love playing but, sadly, sometimes life moves on. It has for me to the point where I couldn't contemplate playing this game properly anymore.

If anything I'd be discouraged by a skill system which encourages time ig above all else. Because I don't have that much time to play.

Can you just confirm this of the new system... characters X and y play for two years and the exact same play time. X constantly skills. Y spends only half the time skilling. They would both collect the same number of skillpoints? If so would X or y receive more learning from their next hour of skilling if they both then logged on and skilled for an hour?
Annabeth
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Annabeth »

Skaalib Drurr wrote:Very interesting thread. This is a really cool game I used to love playing but, sadly, sometimes life moves on. It has for me to the point where I couldn't contemplate playing this game properly anymore.

If anything I'd be discouraged by a skill system which encourages time ig above all else. Because I don't have that much time to play.

Can you just confirm this of the new system... characters X and y play for two years and the exact same play time. X constantly skills. Y spends only half the time skilling. They would both collect the same number of skillpoints? If so would X or y receive more learning from their next hour of skilling if they both then logged on and skilled for an hour?
Y would have lower MC which would result in higher skill gain, though X would catch up to this skillgain later when he is skilling as Y is on the other half of his time roleplaying.
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Mephistopheles »

I feel torn about the whole skill sys, because i completly understand the point of view from the casual players vs the hardcore dudes. And honestly isn't it like this with any mmo? This problem doesnt change, however since I know a good bit (not everything) about skilling and getting goodies in illa I feel its almost too easy. I also feel that some players simply want everything easy. Well it is too damn easy. Back when serinjah swords got tje job done instead of being useless crap, magic weapons were fairly rare. A single gold coin meant you were freakin rich.. well now nothing that is rare is really worth the rareness and everything can just be made by crafters. Levels come easy and stuff comes cheap. I hope the introduction of artifacts changes this and maybe even a second tier of levels that are even harder to get than the current ones... but yeah anyway I understand that some people want things to be lax but then we'll just end up having everyone walkig around with lv 100 equipment and all maxed out skills. So my suggestion is introduce some challenge whether that be a second tier or making the artifacts very hard to obtain, or both.
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Ufedhin
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Ufedhin »

As i have repeatedly said there is an element of players who want everything given to them on a silver platter ,they snivel and moan wanting power and everything else for no effort at all ,unfortunately they dont understand what they do and ruin it for those who do ,yet i wonder how many easy streeters will ever come to realise that they ruin the very thing they want with this attitude. Those who understand the fun of the effort,the sense of worth and the pleasure of a hard goal won are usually the characters of note .
They journey ,no matter what it is, is what adds worth to the goal once achieved ,even if you fail in your goal you will be far greater for haven taken the journey than the person who stayed behind sniveling.

Just a small ingame fact of mine ,my charater has been played for a number of real life years(3 or more i think) and i would say sometimes for far too long ,yet i have no maxed skills in fighting ,why? because i dont need them, Rp makes them secondary.One day in a few more years he might achieve this goal and when he does he will celebrate it, but on the way he will grow far greater than the mastery of the skill.

Casual players should understand they cant have the raw skills of those who have worked at the coal face to achieve them ,that will and should alway require ingame time to achieve.My point is they are secondary to good ROLE PLAYING and that you all have maxed power from the begining!
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Alytys Lamar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Alytys Lamar »

Casual players should understand they cant have the raw skills of those who have worked at the coal face to achieve them ,that will and should alway require ingame time to achieve.My point is they are secondary to good ROLE PLAYING and that you all have maxed power from the begining!


I agree heartily to this. For me Illarion never was and never will be a grinding game -and I would never complain about to have to less skill :P. There are some easy ways to get some coins to have a little outcome -
To play Illarion you have the freedom to achieve goals in make you a master in a skill - or just do Role Play. There is not even the need to whine about skillgain and "all is so complicated" :D
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

I think Illarion combines role play and engine play fairly equally otherwise it would simply be a text based game and we could just roleplay skills that our characters haven't actually earned.

I think of casual players as the players that have short bursts of time to play - an hour or so here and there. If those players want to advance their characters in engine play it becomes difficult rather quickly. To log into a game with the sole purpose of doing nothing but resetting your character's ability to learn is weird and boring so people with only a casual ability to play will probably find something else to do during that short leisure time. After some changes to my character build and playing around with the MC system, I'm finally starting to get the hang of things but I really wouldn't call it easy. It was almost impossible for my character to leave town at all before I made those adjustments and when my MC hit 12 million I almost gave up completely. It struck me as extremely boring, frustrating and slightly psychotic to log into a game for so many hours but do nothing and I still have a long way to go before my character even approaches the level of competence she had before the update.

Pre-VBU it was possible to play a non-fighter character and that was a big part of the appeal for a lot of people. In this post-VBU game a character really needs some ability of self-defense or the scope of the game is rather limited. The engine play is far more important in this version of the game than it was before the VBU. There are some great gamers out there who would enrich the roleplay atmosphere but who have only a casual ability to log in. I don't think they should be sacrificed.
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Kugar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kugar »

Edit: Nevermind - I got my answer. Plus my question didn't really apply to the original topic, much.
Teflon
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Teflon »

Kamilar wrote: I think of casual players as the players that have short bursts of time to play - an hour or so here and there. If those players want to advance their characters in engine play it becomes difficult rather quickly. To log into a game with the sole purpose of doing nothing but resetting your character's ability to learn is weird and boring so people with only a casual ability to play will probably find something else to do during that short leisure time. [...]
That sounds to me as there is still an issue with understanding our new skill-system. Since any skill-progress depends on how much time you spend IG regardless what action you do (skilling, talking, walking), yes, casual players will have a problem skilling their chars because they play less than others. However, it is a waste of time if you try to reset your character's ability to learn. You do not need to spend any second on that. It will not help you because not the action itself will increase your skills but only your active time IG!

Again, please do not waste your time by trying to reset your character's ability to learn!

Probably, someone should post somewhere the time you need to spend IG in order to max one skill of your character.
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