Current Game Thoughts

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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

The only choices I have in options are:

Illarion Client
easyNPC
easyQuest
Map Editor

with a drop down allowing - release or development

I had client and editor set to "release" and NPC and Quest set to "development" because along the lines someone told me that would be the best setting. For sure I see no button that allows me to toggle my text box to stay always active unless that setting exists somewhere inside the game.
Fooser
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Fooser »

I think you have to log in to see the options button.

It took me a while to find the options :oops:
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

Thanks Fooser! I found the second set of options. That's a lot of options. :shock:
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Estralis Seborian »

If you want a bigger chat box, click on that little "book" icon right next to the chat box :-).
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Nitram
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Nitram »

The chat box is a thing of preference...
It can operate in two modes.

First (default) one is that is deactivates after every single line you typed automatically.
Second one is that it keeps active after you typed a line and can be disabled by "sending" a empty line.
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

The text box takes some getting used to, I guess. In all honesty though, of all the buggy, quirky things in Gobaith Illarion, the text box was not one of them. That was, at least in my view, actually the best and most magical feature of the game and needed no improvement. That feature is now a bit worse than what we had in the old version in my opinion.

I discovered making the chat box larger by accident. It covered half of my screen and required more ooc to get it back to it's usual smaller amount of covering the screen. :x

Being able to move the text box and the map might be nice. We can move around the inventory windows but the chat and map windows seem to be fixed. With them overlaying the map, sometimes they're in the way and with character navigation being so difficult it's no small matter at times to view some parts of the screen. The screen format seems to be loosely following the UO model and in UO those things can be moved and customized to serve the convenience of the player.

I did log in again last night onto an empty server and tried out some of the newbie crafting quests. Crafting is indeed much easier than in the old system so that's a huge relief. There is still the behind the screen swearing and agony of trying to land in the right tile to accomplish the crafting task but once you finally arrive, the rest is much nicer than in the old version. Resource gathering might prove a hindrance since you can only gather what you can carry. I didn't try it in enough depth to be absolutely certain, but even just the newbie tasks made me long for a donkey.

Just one newbie girl's opinion ...
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

Some additional thoughts ...

I love that the crafting tutorial is now part of the game proper instead of in Noobia. That gets players into the game more quickly and allows them access to the basic crafting tools as part of their starter kit. Excellent.

I also love, love, love that the game icon is in the task bar now.
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Llama
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Llama »

Wow. Lot's of old people here...

I've been wanting to play again, but there's always something which stops me. And I finally figured out what it is.

The game is too "big".

Before you could log in, there's a single town (mostly), and a bunch of players I know. There are very obvious 'hot spots' which everyone goes to and there's guaranteed to be someone there. You want to roleplay a bit ? Go to Eliza's, or the workshop. Want to kill stuff? Go to the graveyard. And the characters/players you meet today? Pretty much going to be there tomorrow.

It's ironic and sad that the wonderful map and the 'let's explore' is diluting the players.

I mean I've played this game for years. It's always the idea of continuing a story with people you know are going to be there.

There are other complaints that I have - but this is the big one.

So in my opinion - if you want to get more people back - you need to create very limited hotspots and reduce the need to leave - so for instance:

1. Block off the three towns and toss everyone in the inn. Find a quest or something
2. One workshop with all the items you need and a depot
3. Any raw material areas have a depot really close nearby
4. Less 'wandering monsters' and more 'dungeon areas'.
5. Easier way to travel between 'hotspots'

This idea would mean that any players are going to bump into each other, and stay next to each other. If I have to run between a mine and the town every time I have a load of stuff, I'm not going to have time to roleplay much. 'Engine Boredom' (as I'm going to call it) leads to roleplay opportunity.

My two cents.
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Quinasa »

I'd like to see a world map again.

I like a lot of things Ufedhin brings up. I especially can't stand how the game gets dark and then light randomly, making it look like nighttime for an hour and then daytime for five minutes, then nighttime again. I much preferred the rain/fog and day/night in the previous client to the current day/night/toomuchcloudcover cycles.

I must say, though, that I'm quite content with the three towns. I like the GM involvement, but I don't like the rarity of GMs actually logging in as the faction leaders. I miss control being in the hands of the players, but only because there seemed to be much more going on before. When there are people online, whether GMs or not, it's fun to log in and RP. It's fun to make things happen, rather than just sit around waiting for things to happen.
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

So I've been playing around for several days trying out all kinds of things. Many of the problems with Gobaith Illarion have been packed up and brought here in the move and mixed in some special post-VBU problems.

First and foremost, is the dependence on a player economy. For example, I can't buy the gear I need because it's only craftable by player characters and NPCs don't sell them. In theory, this is a nice idea. Make crafters important, support player interaction. I get it. I really do. Here's the problem though. A player economy depends on players being present. I think the idea of players supporting the economy should be tabled until the player base can support it.

The same goes for monsters which I have not tried yet, only researched. From what I've been reading in the forums, a high level warrior has to seek out high level monsters to learn anything but those require a group of warriors if you want to actually manage it. It's a great concept, but it's time has not arrived and in the meantime there isn't much of interest to do for a single player.

Illarion should be playable as a single-player game because for vast stretches of time, that's what it is.
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Mephistopheles »

You can solo many monsters now, there are still some you should not though, it is certainly possible to solo monsters for training to 100, before it was very unlikely basically because monsters regenerated faster than players and hit like gods. Now if you are well equipped (which isn't very hard because merinium and elements are so much easier to obtain making things too damn cheap :wink: ) have the proper stats, and have good skills (70+) you can start fighting some level 7 monsters. However you need to watch out for monsters that are good against your armor type and lv 9 monsters (black dragon skeleton, Son of the mountains, and Merinium golem) oh and don't try to fight a lich.. we all know how that goes. From lvs 90-100 you'll need to fight level 8 monsters those of which you do need to be careful of and are sometimes hard to find. It IS possible to solo these monsters however it is risky and there are times when you will get ghosted.
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

I appreciate the response Meph but it really underscores my point. I need high level gear which isn't for sale by NPCs at any price and can only be bought from a player if you can find one. And I need level 8 monsters which I'm scared of as a newbie without gear. :lol:
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by GolfLima »

@Kamilar:

if you need equipment can only made by players ... use the trading board to ask
1) for the equipment or
2) for an experianced smith/carpenter/....
May be you will find one ... or she/he send you a dove to meet ig.

(( i know a lot of experianced multi crafter - sure they can help you ))
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Salathe »

This game needs to be a fun game even if their aren't people online. Or even if you can't find other to play with. Goals need to be available at all times. I really want to spend time in my mornings before work leveling up my puncture so that the day I return I can use pole arms. But, my MC is through the roof and I learn at the slowest rate imaginable. I have no interest in afking and have no one to RP with in these early hours, so I don't log in. I know for a fact this has been a similar issue for a handful of people during and before the VBU and that they stopped playing as much as they'd like. I dont care that some people think this ruins the game and is unfair to those who prefer to rp alot and skill up a little. I'd rather we have 20 people ingame PGing their asses off than only 5 people in game roleplaying.

I also think the dev team needs to stop tweaking and reworking existing systems. Does crafting and gathering really need to be reworked? Are they really so broken that it's actually ruining players experience rather than being a hinderance in some cases? Is months of planning and testing and discussing really more valuable than adding new things to the game? I'd be very happy to see the team leave imbalances imbalanced and focus on introducing new features/activities. Since the day I started playing and maxed smithing in 2 days without moving more than 5 tiles til the day I became inactive did this game have imbalances in every activity I participated in. I dont think it's worth making everything just perfect, I dont think it will attract new players, nor do I think it will retain them. What I do think will attract and retain players is filling the world with more goals and things to do.

Make gems perform unique effects and become viable to gather in the wild.
-I dont care if one gem is way better than the rest, and that gem can be farmed in some are that isnt difficult. I dont care if the town im in got skunked with the lame gems, Work on these problems as they come and let the players run around in game trying to horde them.

Add magic.
-I dont care if its just a pseudo magic system that is identical to archery but has a magic skin. I dont care if it absolutely stomps on warriors.Adjust modifers and add spells a few at a time while players are all scrambling to learn magic and gather mage related gear.

Add a magic based crafting skill.
-Who cares if the only materials are elements and this takes 5000000 years to max. There will be select players who are able to get there and provide for the masses.

Add unique and powerful items that players gain in the wild.
-I dont care if they are rare and difficult to find and casual players cant participate in this. Being to adjust it so their are easy minor rewards to be had while select groups begin spending hours upon hours scouring dungeons to find what monsters drop what great items.

Add daily quests that are really difficult but give out ridiculous rewards.
-Same as above, even if these are so hard that only a few people can complete them, they'll show up every day to try and get that one quest that only requires you collect 100 resources from every town in 30 mins to receive 100 gold.

Add some active abilities to combat.
-Even if its 2 skills for each weapon class and one weapon class is immensely better than others. People will scramble around dueling and trying things out for a while until it gets patched.

Add some form of customizable paperdolling (have on a strong helmet but show it as a hat, similar to transmog in WoW).
-Who cares if people will start running around in dresses when they are in reality draped in heavy armor, majority will use this to create visually pleasing outfits.

Adding new things is great for the game! Often when I see suggestions for new things the response is "Well... if... but...". And I feel the additions have been few and far between. Even when gems were added and it was clear getting a really high level gem would take years, and even that this effect was simple and bland. It was compelling for a couple of months. I remember people regularly coming around to trade these even though their is a large consensus that this is far too simple and uninteresting.

Crafting/fighting has changed over a dozen times, and we still arent happy with where its at, so lets leave it be and focus on introducing new aspects to the game! it's been a 1 1/2 years since the VBU was initially introduced and the only real additions to the gamplay has been, gems, arenas, markers, maybe the addition of lvl requirements as this required people to go out and skill up. None of these are too major IMO but thats fine if such things can come regularly and be added onto instead of just tweaked over and over.

As for the discussion on NPC/GM run towns. I think GM run towns are a great idea, but to ask that sort of commitment to be successful is simply unreasonable considering how low our player base is. Not sure where to go but players should absolutely be more influential than the GMs.
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

@ GolfLima

I have RP reasons for not using the trading board right now.
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Mephistopheles »

Salathe wrote:This game needs to be a fun game even if their aren't people online. Or even if you can't find other to play with. Goals need to be available at all times. I really want to spend time in my mornings before work leveling up my puncture so that the day I return I can use pole arms. But, my MC is through the roof and I learn at the slowest rate imaginable. I have no interest in afking and have no one to RP with in these early hours, so I don't log in. I know for a fact this has been a similar issue for a handful of people during and before the VBU and that they stopped playing as much as they'd like. I dont care that some people think this ruins the game and is unfair to those who prefer to rp alot and skill up a little. I'd rather we have 20 people ingame PGing their asses off than only 5 people in game roleplaying.

I also think the dev team needs to stop tweaking and reworking existing systems. Does crafting and gathering really need to be reworked? Are they really so broken that it's actually ruining players experience rather than being a hinderance in some cases? Is months of planning and testing and discussing really more valuable than adding new things to the game? I'd be very happy to see the team leave imbalances imbalanced and focus on introducing new features/activities. Since the day I started playing and maxed smithing in 2 days without moving more than 5 tiles til the day I became inactive did this game have imbalances in every activity I participated in. I dont think it's worth making everything just perfect, I dont think it will attract new players, nor do I think it will retain them. What I do think will attract and retain players is filling the world with more goals and things to do.

Make gems perform unique effects and become viable to gather in the wild.
-I dont care if one gem is way better than the rest, and that gem can be farmed in some are that isnt difficult. I dont care if the town im in got skunked with the lame gems, Work on these problems as they come and let the players run around in game trying to horde them.

Add magic.
-I dont care if its just a pseudo magic system that is identical to archery but has a magic skin. I dont care if it absolutely stomps on warriors.Adjust modifers and add spells a few at a time while players are all scrambling to learn magic and gather mage related gear.

Add a magic based crafting skill.
-Who cares if the only materials are elements and this takes 5000000 years to max. There will be select players who are able to get there and provide for the masses.

Add unique and powerful items that players gain in the wild.
-I dont care if they are rare and difficult to find and casual players cant participate in this. Being to adjust it so their are easy minor rewards to be had while select groups begin spending hours upon hours scouring dungeons to find what monsters drop what great items.

Add daily quests that are really difficult but give out ridiculous rewards.
-Same as above, even if these are so hard that only a few people can complete them, they'll show up every day to try and get that one quest that only requires you collect 100 resources from every town in 30 mins to receive 100 gold.

Add some active abilities to combat.
-Even if its 2 skills for each weapon class and one weapon class is immensely better than others. People will scramble around dueling and trying things out for a while until it gets patched.

Add some form of customizable paperdolling (have on a strong helmet but show it as a hat, similar to transmog in WoW).
-Who cares if people will start running around in dresses when they are in reality draped in heavy armor, majority will use this to create visually pleasing outfits.

Adding new things is great for the game! Often when I see suggestions for new things the response is "Well... if... but...". And I feel the additions have been few and far between. Even when gems were added and it was clear getting a really high level gem would take years, and even that this effect was simple and bland. It was compelling for a couple of months. I remember people regularly coming around to trade these even though their is a large consensus that this is far too simple and uninteresting.

Crafting/fighting has changed over a dozen times, and we still arent happy with where its at, so lets leave it be and focus on introducing new aspects to the game! it's been a 1 1/2 years since the VBU was initially introduced and the only real additions to the gamplay has been, gems, arenas, markers, maybe the addition of lvl requirements as this required people to go out and skill up. None of these are too major IMO but thats fine if such things can come regularly and be added onto instead of just tweaked over and over.

As for the discussion on NPC/GM run towns. I think GM run towns are a great idea, but to ask that sort of commitment to be successful is simply unreasonable considering how low our player base is. Not sure where to go but players should absolutely be more influential than the GMs.
+1
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

Salathe wrote:This game needs to be a fun game even if their aren't people online. Or even if you can't find other to play with. Goals need to be available at all times. I really want to spend time in my mornings before work leveling up my puncture so that the day I return I can use pole arms. But, my MC is through the roof and I learn at the slowest rate imaginable.
I'm missing something here. In the old client, after logout your ability to train a skill regenerated over many hours. Is this no longer the case?
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Annabeth »

Kamilar wrote:
Salathe wrote:This game needs to be a fun game even if their aren't people online. Or even if you can't find other to play with. Goals need to be available at all times. I really want to spend time in my mornings before work leveling up my puncture so that the day I return I can use pole arms. But, my MC is through the roof and I learn at the slowest rate imaginable.
I'm missing something here. In the old client, after logout your ability to train a skill regenerated over many hours. Is this no longer the case?
Now you have to be in game AND active to regenerate your skill learning capability. If you go inactive (idle for 5 minutes I think it was) you stop regenerating until you make an action again, be it talking, emoting, moving or opening a bag. Though now there is also no cap that stops you from learning completely like there was before.
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Salathe
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Salathe »

I just wanted to note that in my previous post, I'm not saying those specific suggestions are what this game needs, I'm just trying to convey the point that adding in new features whether they are perfect or not, is what this game needs. Not constant rebalancing and reworking existing features. And when there is a good idea, from experience with this game, it seems that simply adding something imbalanced really stirs up the player count (in a good way). Imbalances/inequalities can be fleshed out bit by bit over time. And I really want to keep stressed that making this an engaging game to play for when no one is around is a key to success of all MMOs and we should follow that. Big quests and stories are necessary, but I'd like to see us meet that base line.
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

Annabeth wrote:
Kamilar wrote:
Salathe wrote:This game needs to be a fun game even if their aren't people online. Or even if you can't find other to play with. Goals need to be available at all times. I really want to spend time in my mornings before work leveling up my puncture so that the day I return I can use pole arms. But, my MC is through the roof and I learn at the slowest rate imaginable.
I'm missing something here. In the old client, after logout your ability to train a skill regenerated over many hours. Is this no longer the case?
Now you have to be in game AND active to regenerate your skill learning capability. If you go inactive (idle for 5 minutes I think it was) you stop regenerating until you make an action again, be it talking, emoting, moving or opening a bag. Though now there is also no cap that stops you from learning completely like there was before.

And we have a winner for the worst feature of the game.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Estralis Seborian »

In summary: In whatever way you play, you get the same amount of skill over time. So, if you spend ten hours ingame and skill ten minutes or four hours for skilling, in the end, you will get the same skill out of it. The more actions you do over time, the less you learn from each action; but you do more actions than someone else.

This system was designed to give you all freedom you need for your characters; you do not have to idle to learn (what was a weird concept) but you can play on and on and on. No worries about caps or MC points, just play! If you decide to chat for an hour, you lose nothing because your learning success per action will increase slightly.

It is absolutely not necessary to idle for hours before you start skilling. During those hours, you could as well skill and have the same skillgain over time. However, again, you can idle or just talk to other characters, do some exploring,... whatever you like! The only constraint: If you have very limited material for crafting, you might want to focus on that craft or drop it entirely because every type of action counts to the same pool.

If you have any questions, PM me or check this out: https://github.com/Illarion-eV/Illarion ... /learn.lua

Edit: If you consider this a bad concept, you can have the old cap back :-P
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Salathe
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Salathe »

Estralis Seborian wrote:In summary: In whatever way you play, you get the same amount of skill over time. So, if you spend ten hours ingame and skill ten minutes or four hours for skilling, in the end, you will get the same skill out of it. The more actions you do over time, the less you learn from each action; but you do more actions than someone else.
The correct comparison, I believe, would be to look at total played time since you began that character. With my MC pushing 100,000 (or whatever ridiculous number it was when I became inactive) I learn at some ridiculously slow rate where it takes me hours to get my puncture to lvl up, and I'm only around lvl 50. Sure, my total logged time of 1,000+ hours may balance out to giving the same amount of skill over time. But for the hour I would like to spend in the morning leveling up, it does not all equal what someone else may spend their hour doing. It may be nice in theory, but not the best in all cases, and I definitely think building MC performing actions for skills you have maxed makes it even more detrimental.

I'd prefer a system where we have a base skill gain. In no cases does the base skill gain drop, but if you are roleplaying for a long time, it can increase.
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Jupiter »

Salathe wrote:I'd prefer a system where we have a base skill gain. In no cases does the base skill gain drop, but if you are roleplaying for a long time, it can increase.
We do have that. Your skill gain reaches never zero. There is a bottom border. So you basically want to increase that border, right?
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

Oh yeah, now I'm confused. I'm going to send you a PM later Estralis ... you know, when I'm done idling. :lol:

Edit: PM sent
Estralis Seborian wrote:Edit: If you consider this a bad concept, you can have the old cap back :-P
Yes, please? :?
Last edited by Kamilar on Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Quinasa »

Jupiter wrote:
Salathe wrote:I'd prefer a system where we have a base skill gain. In no cases does the base skill gain drop, but if you are roleplaying for a long time, it can increase.
We do have that. Your skill gain reaches never zero. There is a bottom border. So you basically want to increase that border, right?
I think what he meant is that he would like to see gain skill always at the same rate, but if you spend time doing other things (rp, exploring, not idling) the rate at which you learn can become faster. Rather than the current way in which the amount of skill you earn goes down over time of doing a skill learning action and MC can only be reset by doing non-skilling actions.
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Mephistopheles »

On the learning system, if you guys want "easier levels" then keep it as is, once you get used to it, you can max a skill in about a month or little more (if you're really into it, if not about 3 months) if you want to spend 2 years making your char maxed out then sure lets bring the cap back. I don't care too much I wish some things were a little harder, skilling being one. But know you'll be shooting yourself in the foot if you want to gain skill like before.
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

Estralis explained it and sadly I still don't understand. I'm just trying to figure out how this supports the casual gamer. I can't see a system where skill gain goes continuously down over time no matter what you do as a good idea. It seems to me that this supports more idling than before. Or maybe it supports not logging in at all? If it's pointless for Salathe to log in for an hour a day, what have we gained?
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Jupiter
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Jupiter »

Kamilar wrote:I can't see a system where skill gain goes continuously down over time no matter what you do as a good idea.
The skill gain goes only down if you skill ;)

Every action you learn from increases your MC points.
The higher the points, the less you learn (so MC = bad).
The MC points are what goes continuously down no matter what you do
Of course, if you do action you learn from, your mc increase more than they are lowered in that time.

However, one thing is worth to be considered:
If you haven't played since some weeks, but now you want again, and you want to skill a bit and you don't because you pushed the MC very high when you were still active, that might be frustrating and make you stop your comeback.
A certain lowering of the MC points while being offline might help in those cases. Of course, the questions are to what rate and if there should be a bottom border for mc reducing while being offline. The latter is important in my eyes.
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Kamilar
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Kamilar »

Jupiter wrote:
Kamilar wrote:I can't see a system where skill gain goes continuously down over time no matter what you do as a good idea.
The skill gain goes only down if you skill ;)
:lol: I meant that there is no way to reduce a high MC once a player raises it to a ridiculous level.

I get the idea that there should be a balance between skilling and roleplaying but that's not where Illarion's at currently. In the old system (which was admittedly weird) you could spend some down time walking back from the spawn to sell your loot and check for RP possibilities. No RP? Ok, back to the spawn. Still no RP? Ok, logout and try fresh tomorrow. At least with the lack of RP in the old system, there was a reason to log in for skillgain.

In the new version (if I understand it) you visit the spawn for the skillgain, return to town to check for RP and then logout if there's no RP because you don't want to grind anymore. Tomorrow you still have the same high MC and have to look for RP all over again or - and this scenario is much more likely due to the small size of the player base - conduct random non-skill actions. So we have an empty server with a small handful of characters opening and closing bags? :?
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Current Game Thoughts

Post by Estralis Seborian »

What Jupiter wrote is not the complete story: the more MC points you have, the more you lose over time. Hence, if you do not change your behaviour drastically, you end up with a constant value, not an ever increasing.

The old system promoted ideling or logging out because you could not skill anymore once you hit the cap. The new rewards online time. So, yes, staying ingame or at least logging in and playing is the best way to skill.
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