Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

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Achae Eanstray
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Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Finally the day we have looked forward to.. or some of us, since the VBU. We are starting the beginning stages of a magic discussion.

Balancing all three systems i.e. alchemy, mage and priesthood so they work well in the game with no clashes will be a concerted effort but, except for alchemy which has already established itself in game, it has begun for the other two. It has been decided not to include bard magic now, possibly never though who knows for the future.

Only ideas have been roughed out by the dev's for now, nothing concrete or laid out in stone so now is the time to post your own ideas. Priest magic and mage magic shouldn't clash but should compliment each other, the priest magic concentrating on the younger gods, mage on elements.

Endlich ist der Tag, auf den sich so viele seit dem Beginn des VBUs gefreut haben. Wir beginnen mit den grundsätzlichen Diskussionen über Magie.

Es wird gemeinsame Anstrengungen erfordern, alle drei Systeme - Alchemie, Magie und Priester - aufeinader abzustimmen, so dass es zu keinen Konflikten kommt. Mit Ausnahme der Alchemie, welche bereits im Spiel ist, beginnt es nun für die anderen beiden. Es wurde beschlossen, keine Bardenmagie einzubeziehen - mögleicherweise nie, aber wer weiß schon, was die Zukunft bringen wird.

Bisher wurden nur grobe Ideen von den Entwicklern entwickelt. Nichts Konkretes oder in Stein Gemeißeltes. Daher ist es nun an euch, eure Ideen mitzuteilen. Das Priester- und Magiersystem sollten nicht kollidieren, sondern einander bereichern. Priester werden sich auf die jungen Götter beziehen, Magier auf die Elemente.

(Thanks Merung for the translation!)
Ranwyln
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Ranwyln »

I think to have no clashes will be pretty hard, but depends on how complicated the priest/mage magic will be and i have no idea if it will be near to the old magic system or something completely new (and i have to admit i dont have a clue about the old magic system).

just as a small brainstorming:

Priest magic sorted in trees like miracles able to do per God/ess: as an example Malachin will be more "war" miracles, Oldra more healing and so on.

or to keep it simple for the start a set of several support spells (healing, maybe some kind of blessings to increase attributes, but that will clash with alchemists than, or maybe blessings casts on items to increase the damage against some special kind of monsters or on tools to make them more usefull (Oldras Blessed Threshing Flail to increase output of grains and things like that (than you dont need gemmed tools maybe) would there be some kind of necromancy (white/black) dunno.

Mages Elemental: Earth,Air,Fire,Water maybe fifth element Ether (Arcane). A set of Offensive spells and maybe a few shields (but not too powerful a mage in melee should have a lot of problems) healing should be priest and alchemist thing. Could be sorted in trees for each Element too with a own set of spells (maybe even include resistances for each elemtal ingame than, like we have now with vulnerabilities in special kind of weapon vs armour : for example clay golem get harmed more by water spells but laughs about air ones and so on) could even work with making it harder to learn the opposite element liek you mastered water it will be harder to learn fire than or something like that.

maybe add a crafting aspect to both like blessed weapons/tools and magic weapons will need a mage/priest than (fire mage for fire weapons and so on ).


That are just a few ideas i have in mind thinking bout magic/priests, there is much more but its a start.
Cheers PO Ranwlyn (and i hope what i wrote is understandable)
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Mephistopheles »

I like Ranwyln's idea of mages being set into different elements. each element would have its own spells. Fire being most offensive, earth being most defensive and so on, however where would Necros fall into? "ether" or "arcane"? We don't want to discount evil mages which generally gravitate toward necromancy. I still hope to revive some evil guy rp. Perhaps a set a normal mage spells and then blood mage spells. There are even some chars that use blood magic that aren't considered entirely evil, so thats just a thought.

As to priest magic, as much as we would like to have each priests being able to have different abilities per the god they worship I think it would be much harder to implement than a simple universal priest system, as it would a universal magic system instead of having mages and blood mages set apart.
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Djironnyma
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Djironnyma »

Just as a side note: Blood magic, necromancy, witches, shamanism or such things where never own magic systems/spells, neigther in the lore nor in the enginge of illarion. In the lore of illarion they are different technicals/philosophical schools/ethic views but not really a other kind of magic. E.g. a mage , witch, bloodmage, necro all cast a fireball with a different style but ind the end / for the system it stays ever a fireball (or a gfx of a fireball and a damage done to the goal :D).
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GolfLima
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by GolfLima »

Magier:
* die Idee Magie mit den Elementen zu verbinden halte ich für sehr gut (( Handwerker sind auch an ihr Handwerk gebunden ))
* außerdem kann ein Magier ja durchaus nacheinander die verschiedenen "Elemente" erlernen
* es wäre durchaus interessant bestimmte Gegenstände (Waffen, Rüstungen, Schilde) von Magiern "veredeln" zu lassen ((z.B. Feuerschwert, mag. Dolch u.ä.) - danit hätten Magier auch eine Einnahmequelle aus ihrem eigenen Bereich
* analog Fernkämpfern sollte das Zaubern eine gewisse Zeit in Anspruch nehmen
* KEINE Heilmagie für Magier

Priester:
+ da man als Priester i.a. einem bestimmten Gott dient sollte ein Teil der "Priestermagie" auch an diesem Gott ausgerichtet sein
+ erbitten / erflehen von Wundern (?) - (( sollte vielleicht auch weiterhin an GM gebunden sein ))
+ Priester könnten Heilmagie" wirken
+ "Segen der Gottheit" - je nach Gott abhängige zeitlich beschränkte Veränderung von Attributen

Druiden / Alchemie
- dienen im Moment nur als Lieferanten von Heil- & Attributstränken
- gehört für mich eher ins Handwerks- als ins Magiesystem - jedenfalls so wie es im Moment ist
- falls sie weiterhin dem Magiesystem zugeordnet werden - sollte auch für Sie überlegt werden was man Ihnen als "Besonderheit" angedeihen lassen kann, damit es einen grund gibt ein Druide zu sein

allgemein:
# die "Spezialisierung" / das Anbinden an Elemente bzw. Götter vervielfacht die Arbeit wahrscheinlich im Gegensatz zu "unspezifischer" Magie / allgemeinen Priestertum
# eine vollständige Trennung dürfte sehr schwierig umzusetzen sein (( z.B. Heilen ))

(( if someone can translate it - please be so kind and do it, thanks ))

(( vielleicht wäre es möglich von Zeit zu Zeit eine Zusammenfassung der Diskussion in DEU & ENG "einzufügen" da ich vermute die Diskussion wird nur auf ENG geführt werden, was doch einen gewissen Teil ausschließt ))
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Falyame
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Falyame »

I like all ideas too so far. Tut mir leid, wenn ich nur auf englisch schreibe. Ich will niemanden ausschließen, jedoch bin ich ein wenig faul es zu übersetzen. Ich denke auch es werden genug andere und bessere Ideen kommen, wodurch es für mich überflüssig wird, mein Text zu übersetzen.

Im not familar with informatic stuff. I don´t know what is possible for developping illarion and the magic system but here I want to add an idea.

What if you have to specialize yourself for one or two elements (as a mage) and one or two paths (as a priest) in which you are more powerfull than in the other elements/ paths?
E.G. You are a mage you choose the elements fire and earth as your focus. You are more powerfull in these elements (make more damage, whatever, have no idea). But the opposite elements water and air are much weaker. And you have offensive and defensive spells.
So a mage can´t be an "all-rounder" which can´t make him TOO powerfull (maybe, I don´t know how the magic system was on Gobaith). That´s the disadvantage of this idea. But in other fantasy games there are magic-systems nearly similar to this idea. But I don´t want to say that you should copy from other fantasy games ^^. I think that is not the point of this Roleplay Game.

I havent seen yet "evil guys" in illarion. So it would be attractive to those who want to be a priest of moshran, or maybe nargun or ronagan. EDIT: Cherga =/= Necromancy.

And the idea for the priest spells: All priests have basic spells regardless their path. And when you choose one god or goddess you gain the spells given to you by the god/ goddess you have chosen which are different from the other paths.
E.G. Your basic priest spells are "heal, regeneration, bless, some mass blessings/ healings etc", also some offensive spells like "fear, paralize, etc". Additional to your basic spells you gain some spells by your chosen god/ goddess, also regarding to your spell level.
E.G. Oldra: Raise dead ally, A special blessing ....
Ronagan: Invisible, Open a locked door ....
Moshran: Raise a beast, Rage....(no blood magic, as Djironnyma just explained, there is no blood magic and necromancy)
Sirani: Charm a monster, Sleep....

These spells are really powerfull but I dont know how much powerfull will be the mage spells. Maybe these special spells can be set on timer so you are not able to use them every minute. Maybe once per IG- day.

For the alchemy: They will overlapp with some spells for sure. But its not that bad I think. Healing potions and other potions are really helpfull because they can be used by every character by brewing them on their own or just buying them. When Alchemy is not a handcraft but a magic system an alchemist could received some speciall abillities like "immunity to some elements" or he can eat berries, flowers and other stuff from the woods which gave them temporary advantages ...
Also my question: Just keep the alchemy system "just" as alchemy or will there be differences between druids and proffessional alchemists?
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Mr.Oldie »

i think i may be able include all different "magic styles" and still able to explain using game mechanics. Including that into lore would be upto GMs, but am fairly sure ill able to convince you as long as there is a viable way for the game mechanics to make it work.
Give me sometime am working on an explanation of elaborate magic system. :)
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Jupiter
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Jupiter »

Alchemy is not included because there is already more or less a plan for it and there will be only very few cases where it might get in conflict with the other two systems because of the way we approach the "add-on" to the alchemy system.
Also my question: Just keep the alchemy system "just" as alchemy or will there be differences between druids and proffessional alchemists?
That will be up to you. The basic idea is that you will be able to choose a limited amount of abilities from a give set. It is very likely that we will have rules like "If you want C you need A and B", but otherwise you a free to select as you think it fits your character.

However, that topic shouldn't be on alchemy stuff but our poor mages and priests who have nothing at the moment. ;) You'll be informed on the alchemy thingy when it is ready to be made public.
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Katharina Brightrim
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Katharina Brightrim »

Ich denke, wie GolfLima, dass Priester die Heilfähigkeiten bekommen sollten, während die Magier eher auf Veränderungs/Schadens-zabuer gehen sollten. Priester sollten dann natürlich auch rp-mäßig in Zukunft Zeremonien oder so leiten.
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Djironnyma »

Please try to give your opinions reason and as further animation i would give you follow questions to think about:

What advantage/disadvantage should a “caster” have?
What role/use should the “caster” have in a group? / How does a group profit from being heterogenic and not only high end knights and archers?
How you make the class interesting? What kind of spells/ability is each class able to do (there will be no class which is just damage dealer or just healer or similar, cause that would be very boring to play)?
What different the classes from each other?
Ranwyln
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Ranwyln »

Advantage of a caster in my opinion is you are ranged, you prolly have a interesting way of roleplay, and hm its Magic. Disadvantage if someone gets near you, you are mince like archers too, maybe only make magic possible for casters not clad in metal armour (maybe priests can have that like a Malachin priest in heavy armour so more like a paladine or so ) or only cloth allowed and than some protective spells.

Role of a caster:
Mage in my eyes have the same as a archer + maybe some sort of crowd controling (paralyze, sleep spell and so on) and a priest more a support class with heal/blessings and so on.

How to make it interesting: Hm its Magic or dealing with divine powers, thats intersting already i think ( and they prolly get some nice graphic effects no one else has) . And a figher well what he does? Damage nothing else so why should that be boring or a pure crafter. I really dont want to see any caster class running around healing itself up and doing damage like hell, that would be just overpowered. If casters will have the ability to bless/enchant items that would be unique, no other class is able to do it both (Fighting/Crafting) with only one profession.

So from classic roleplaying it would be fighters holding the monsters, archers/mages doing range damage and priests doing the healing making the others stronger.
I think the main focus should be to make it a playable class thats not too powerful or too weak. The rest will come from the roleplay. I dont have any idea what is possible with the Illa Engine, you could even put summon spells into it and so on. From the possibilities mages/priests will already be the most interesting class in a roleplay cause they fit perfect in a fantasy setting.

And the main difference between most of the players at the moment are maybe stats and the roleplay, we dont have "Fix" classes in my eyes.
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Mr.Oldie »

Could someone give me the old list of spells that were available Pre-VBU.
Just want to see the type of spells that were used to help with my suggestions.
A whole list please. :)

And i know Its VBU version we are trying for something new and unrelated. i just want to know about the old spells thats all.
PM me if you dont want to put it up here :)
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Ranwyln »

Just got another idea bout the elements it could be:

Fire , Earth , Air , Water , Ether(enchanting), Light (heals, blessings) and Dark (drain, necromancy) (to add magic trees to priests) each one with an own set of spells.

just some ideas for spells

Fire : Firebolt (single damage + damage over time), Fireball (area damage+ damage over time), Fireshield (protection, harms the melee attacker too), summon elemental (small fire elemental that helps for a bit of time)

Water : Icebolt (single damage + maybe slowing), Cone of cold (area damage, maybe slowing the enemy), Frostshield (protection for some damage if broken it shatters and does some damage), summon elemental (same as in fire)

Air : Lightning Bolt (single damage + maybe small stun), Thunderstorm (area damage + maybe stunning), blast of air (protective spell that pushs the enemy away,and /or deflects missiles), summon elemental (same as in fire)

Earth :Mud Bolt (single damage + maybe blind), Earthquake (area damage + maybe slow (tripping), Wall of Stone (protective needs to be beaten down or bypassed), summon elemental (same as in fire)

Light: Light (no need for a torch ;) ), Heal (heals some damage), Bless (increases shorttime a few or all attributes, or increases armour and damage a bit), Turn Undead (does some damage to Undeads), Sunburst (light explosion that does some damage (more to undead ?) + maybe blind)

Dark: Darkness (night effect in an area ), Life Drain (as the name says), Curse (decreases shorttime a few or all attributes, or decreases armour and damage done a bit), summon undead (what the name says ;), Black Hole (darkness in a bigger area that does some damage (drains life) + maybe paralyzed in fear + could heal undeads ;) )

Ether: smaller enchants for weapons/armours/tools (with a temporary effect) and at a higher level maybe permanent effects (like firesword, Magical Serinjah and so on)


to go on with the ideas about the system fire cant learn water and only a bit air/earth and same with the other elements, dark cant learn light and maybe Ether for everyone. And adding maybe a small miracle to each god (once per ig day) and a medium miracle (once per ig week) and maybe even a bigger miracle (once per ig month),maybe adding resources to be needed to do a miracle, which wonders would fit i only got an idea about a few ones like
Oldra: Small: Increase Fertility (a field blessed like that grows faster with a better output for a period of time)
Medium: Create Food (random food summoned out of nothing)
Big: Ressurect (complete heal after crossed or getting back to life at the place where you are crossed)

Adron: Small: Water to Wine/Beer ( as the name says )
Medium: Divine Festivities (music + everyone in an area gets drunk ? )
Big: The Nymph (a male/female dancer summoned that dances ?)

others i will have to think more about :)
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Kyre »

Just to be clear, there is blood magic, witches and necromancy in game however not in the engine, the same as there were/still are a few druids roleplayed. This thread from my understanding is more on the engine mechanics and not the roleplay hence my ideas/wishes for the engine.

To separate mage and priest magic because I think alchemy is already pretty separate and fairly complete i.e. different from the other two where it doesn't need discussion.

1. Healing: Both the others like alchemy can heal just in different ways. Alchemy with it's potions, I'd like mages to be able to heal individually to help with the roleplay of group hunts, and priests to heal the group, on a larger scale then mages.

2. The roleplay of illusion adds an exciting and creative element to the game that has been removed in the VBU, if not removed...severely limited. I'd like to see this creativity allowed to return by adding an element to all three systems. Alchemy can possibly turn a char into an animal with the illusion that char is not them but an animal. Mage illusions of fire and movement, priest illusions of the god worshiped. This one simple engine based design can add tremendous creativity to a roleplay game, with set and definite rules of it's use it can be fun.

3. If possible, I'd like to see some travel added to the systems, some innovation besides the use of teleporters. In the past mages used portals however some variation to encompass all three systems would be a pleasant surprise and could help greatly in those instances there is a group activity.

In summary, I see achemists as more "earth/nature" oriented. Mages not limited to the "fighter" status alone but different from the others in the individuality, priests more group oriented, more powerful then mages in their spells and ability but dependent on the number of followers and the god they worship.
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Raelith
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Raelith »

As some people know, I came up with some stuff some time ago that I thought I might as well share.

I had the stuff up on google drive so i'll just share the links but unfortunately, in the process, GD decided to take my epic formatting, spit on it and throw it out of the window.

If you look at the document then just understand that the spells are only there as examples. It would be up to the devs and interested players to decide on the final spell list and such.

I will be very selfish and say that my main motivations for this system are:
A) The implementation of hotkeys as seen in the pic above the HP bar (Don't mock my L337 artistic skills) as something like this would be beneficial with regards to a possible port to mobile devices such as android tablets.
B) A mix between teacher and NPC taught spells as the NPC teacher would allow the player to learn the basic "necessary" spells without having to be a player for months beforehand but the player teacher would be able to teach the "optional" spells and if a player wished to learn these then they would have to learn to interact with others.

This would not strictly be "FORCED RP" as the spells would NOT be necessary in order to play a mage through to max level but they allow for some nice bonuses such as portals and a temporary magic shield (examples)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B80t6S ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B80t6S ... sp=sharing
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Uhuru »

A caster should have good range, probably determined by the wand s/he carries and his/her ability. Sure don’t see a caster as being very strong physically, preferably standing in back in a group and it would be super great if they could cast over our heads. Although, the down-side to that would be the monster mages could cast over our heads as well. So let’s think on that one. I definitely don’t want to see classes made where only one can heal and no other, Djironnyma is right, that would be boring and would, quite frankly, tick off our current casters. I would think levels of performance for such tasks. The thread was speaking to Mage and Priest, I will continue on with those.

I see a mage as a primary damage dealer and the priest as secondary. So the mage can kick some serious arse and the priest can do some damage, but nothing like a mage. I see the priest as a primary healer, and the mage as a secondary healer. So a priest can completely heal one or even an entire group of characters, where a mage can only partially heal any character and possibly not do any group healing. The “normal” spells should be basic to both mage and priest, such as healing and portals. Perhaps a few others, maybe a fireball, but not sure priests will want those.

Priests should be out gathering followers and something should be in place to encourage them to do so. I do like the idea someone had to base the strength of the spells on how many followers someone has. I’m just not sure how to accommodate people that go inactive. Would they still count as followers? And what would constitute a follower? Just signing up all your friends in game or actually having to commit to and be giving items to the priest they follow, listening to sermons? How would this even be possible to track or know? Almost feels similar to the town ranks if we make it too complicated. This also has the added drawback of how large the player base is in our game, making it difficult to acquire many followers for too many different priests at any given time.

Some suggestions on priest magic, in addition to “normal” magic spells… some special spells…
(luck below refers to a temporary better ability to find something when gathering.)

Nargùn - God of Chaos, toss rocks or something around like a whirlwind, turn people into frogs (or cows, temporarily), turn rocks into fake gold coins, bless someone with luck (any race)

Elara - Goddess of Wisdom and Knowledge, conjuring parchment, ability to silence people and a whole crowd (cannot learn if talking), able to draw a lighting bolt from the sky for immediate justice, bless lizards with luck

Adron - God of Festivities and Wine, filling wine bottles, conjure grapes, replenish all grapes on the vine within a certain range, and bless elves with luck

Oldra - Goddess of Life and Fertility, planting crops without seed, conjuring lambs (baby sheep), protection over a group of women (male in circle would cancel spell, excepting priest or monster), bless halfling with luck

Cherga - Goddess of Spirits and the Underworld, temporarily turn someone’s hair gray, bless lizard with luck

Malachín - God of Battle and Hunting, blowing of war horn will bring hunted animals close or send them fleeing (not sure which is preferred), protects his followers with a blessing while hunting together, bless elves with luck

Irmorom - God of Trade and Craftsmanship, turn iron into gold (limited use, conjure hammers, replenishes all stones in a mine, bless a tool so it doesn’t rot so fast during use), ability to bless a dwarf with good luck.

Sirani - Goddess of Love and Pleasure, presence protects her followers, ability to add a protection to that presence blessing when danger approaches, conjure flowers (easy to find herbs), bless humans with luck

Zhambra - God of Friendship and Loyalty, ability to remove cursed shield, strengthen a weak shield (repair), produce a clap of thunder to get the attention of a large rowdy crowd, and bless orc with luck

Ronagan - God of Thieves and Shadows, as Ranwyln said, (I like that) invisibility for self and others (single and group), able to stop someone from running from a thief (stun?), conjure bread, bless human with luck

Moshran - God of Blood and Bones, repair of slashing weapons, conjure skeletons and orcs, large area spell of fire, bless everyone with bad luck, bless orc with luck

I’ve given much thought to the ability for resurrection. This is a powerful magic. If all priests don’t have this ability, then I fear all followers will follow the one god that grants this magic, as it will be highly desirable. We could break this out so a priest can only revive one species as I have done with the blessing of luck or just give all priests the ability to resurrect everyone or not give any priests this ability at all. Either way, using such a magic should take a very large amount of mana and physical energy, completely draining the priest I would think. My personal preference is that this magic not be included in the priest magic.

In our lore, Cherga supposedly doesn’t care much for the living, so why would she resurrect people and send them back? It isn’t logical.

In terms of working in a group… my character… PO basically, prefers working in groups. Too hard to stay alive otherwise. And, I admit, I miss my healer. Miss my little witch spitting out fireballs too. Spider hunting just isn’t the same without the huge walls of fire. Casters add so much to how a group can hunt that most fighters aren’t even aware of how it could be. A perfect fighting unit now, someone in each light, medium, heavy armor; someone using each different weapon type, and a caster, at least one, but hoping for two or three. Yes, this is a large group. But not horribly huge, maybe six to eight. Imagine what they could take on! Put the warriors up holding the monsters and the range with bows, letting the casters spit fire or whatever and one healing. UNSTOPPABLE! Pfft, six undead black dragons? No big deal.
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Jupiter
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Jupiter »

Nargun priests should have only one ability: Perform a random ability from the abilities other priests have :P
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Raelith
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Raelith »

I disagree that spells such as portals and heals should be made available to all as each "type" of magic is fundamentally different.
Here is a breakdown and a few examples of what i "personally" think magic is:

Arcane (Mages): Is basically manipulating the arcane and elements. This would be used for portals, damaging spells etc.

Divine (Priests): This is a God-Given magic and would be used for heals, resurrecting fallen comrades, inspiring comrades (buffs). It is basically survival magic.

Nature (Druids): This is basically being "one with nature". This is where animal empathy (charming) would come into play as well as things such as spells that use the earth and water to assist you (Entangling Roots, Farming, Fishing etc).

Blood (Necromancer): The spells themselves are weak as hell but it is the "effects" of spells where this magic somes into play. This would be your summoning, life leech and debuff spells (such as lowering your strength).


With a good magic system in place you could also use it to introduce some "abilities" to current classes.


Note: I'm not saying that the other types of magic should be implemented, those were just examples.
Maybe the druids of the game are quite content NOT having magic.
Maybe the general player base is happy WITHOUT having Blood Magic otherwise you may see a return of nefarious groups such as The Temple which would bring conflict into the game when the players don't WANT any conflict.
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Uhuru »

Raelith, I see where you are headed with this and like the basic concepts. However, if you define each class differently and confine spells, like healing and portals to one or another class, we may end up with issues in game. I do believe every caster will want the ability to heal in some form as well as use portals. These two things are especially important in the game. Outside of that, I think we can be as creative as we wish.
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Raelith
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Raelith »

I can understand that but i do feel that an "everything for everyone" concept would harm the potential for diversity.

Instead of the aforementioned spells being available to all, why not make them available to all in a non-magical way for example:

Portal Books: Created by mages. Can be sold/gifted to other players or even sold by "mage NPCs" and can be used by all. Illarion already had these pre-VBU

Bandages: A working item for something that already gets RPed ingame. Could be used on other players so your typical non-mage nurse could still do so.

In my idea, I did already put a small to medium heal in for mages as theoretically speaking it could be described as healing broken bones/sealing wounds.
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Raelith »

Also...
Don't forget that healing is also available in the form of potions and if you do happen to let everyone and their pet cat start healing then you would potentially be taking food out of the mouths of your resident potions masters whatever their background.
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Ranwyln »

I think it shouldnt be a problem when healing is limited to only priests, mages can use potions like warriors and archers too and i really dont want to see a class that is able to do everything on its own.. (healing, fighting) thats prolly impossible to balance especially for people that want to do player vs player from time to time too.

Maybe it would be possible to instead add a spell for mages that only can be cast on themselves that increases Constitution like hell for a short moment giving em a lot of regeneration (i like the idea of spells only be able to cast on the player itself).

And i think i dont want a group of 5-8 players able to beat 6 or more black dragons for several reasons:

Ingame Events will have to end up with fairly overpowered monsters that kill everything (not giving new ones the chance to take part), or the enemy will always just be blown away with ease.

Are we supposed to be normal people in the game or the one and only glorious Heroes , cause i think we are less or more "normal" and a Black Dragon or a Son of the Mountains should always be a special really dangerous enemy.
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Djironnyma
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Djironnyma »

Ranwyln wrote:I think it shouldnt be a problem when healing is limited to only priests, mages can use potions like warriors and archers too and i really dont want to see a class that is able to do everything on its own.. (healing, fighting) thats prolly impossible to balance especially for people that want to do player vs player from time to time too.
The question what kind of spells/ability’s a class have, has not much to do with the question how strong the class is in (pvp) fight. The ability to cast damage and support (including healing) spellls means not to be an immortal killing machine. Dont tend to believe the mages were OP in the past cause the variety/amount of their spells, they were OP cause the spells where to strong and the casting speed to fast (and cause no warrior ever give a sh*t about willpower ;) ).

To be serious they just had 5 spells that matter, range-damage, portal, teleportation, paralyse and healing. It’s more or less decide that there will be neither a paralyse spell (to much frustration/op in general) nor a teleportation spell (to many map glitches). So a mage would be reduced to “need no portal books” (which are cheap and easy to get/use anyway) and cause range-damage, same function as a archer, other gfx, uses Mana potions instead of arrows. But the archer is a far better melee fighter / far better in defence and fare better to craft/earn money.

The answer to give a mage class a value can’t be to give his damage more different Graphics or increase the damage until its OP again. The answer also cannot be to share all valuable casting effects exclusive to our 3 casting classes like alchemists=support/ability raise, priests=healing, mage=damage. We should more discuss about the way how a caster create his spells/magic and who gets how the benefit.

E.g.:
  • Alchemist (alchemy1) brew potions advantage: store-able, trade-able, use able by anyone even if the alchemist isn’t around
    disadvantage: needing resources and time to brew

    Mage cast spells advantage: fast (in opposite to other spell classes not to an arrow) and direct
    disadvantage: limited by mana, just single goals (enemy’s/friends), no Long time effects

    Priest make prayers advantage: Long time and area/group effects, more powerful with bigger amount of followers
    disadvantage: long "casting" time, no direct goals
Ranwyln wrote:Are we supposed to be normal people in the game or the one and only glorious Heroes , cause i think we are less or more "normal" and a Black Dragon or a Son of the Mountains should always be a special really dangerous enemy.
No single char should be able to kill high end enemy’s, no matter what class he have. But one of the ideas of illarion is to reward cooperation between chars/players. Furthermore a group of different “classes” should ever be stronger as a group just created from one or two classes. This is to give every class worth and to make the game less boring. A good mixed group of chars with the right tactic and skills should ever be able to handle any monster on the map / in dungeon’s. Monsters are created to be killed by players not the other way around.
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Mephistopheles »

Heres what I think:

Mages/bloodmages/warlocks(whatever, they do the same stuff engine-wise as Dji said) all damaging types,drain spells, lightning, fire, ice.
no buffs or debuffs as these should be reserved for priests and alchemists.
Summoning (going by creature levs and caster levs, a novice lv 10-50 could summon low level, 1-3 creatures, while a master could summon a single level 7 creature at high mana cost, nothing higher than lv 7. the summoned creature(s) would then attack ((hopefully don't know if its possible to script)) the targeted player or creature, and summoned creatures do not drop loot and have a chance to wander from the caster and disappear).
Defensive spells minor barrier, greater barrier, at mastery with proper stats greater barrier would have protective measure of a lv 80 armor with no weapon type weakness (possibly future effects of certain items might go through a mages barrier) and only able to cast on self.
Minor/medium heals single, can only heal self or single target.
Portal (not the teleportation where one can abuse the map)
Slow field, an area where things moving through it move slower.

I would add enchanting but I believe that is already being discussed. So there it is, plain and simple a good universal start to a mage concept, I don't know if its possible for all those things to actually be scripted.
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Evie »

Ranwyln wrote:I think it shouldnt be a problem when healing is limited to only priests, mages can use potions like warriors and archers too and i really dont want to see a class that is able to do everything on its own.. (healing, fighting) thats prolly impossible to balance especially for people that want to do player vs player from time to time too. ........
I am not sure if my mage was the norm or not for the old system however, she always carried potions mana and healing. Mages could heal and fight yes, but they had huge limitations. Such as casting being blocked/aborted when hit during casting and only being able to cast if mana available. Careful timing could allow them to cast a spell while being hit, but multiple targets made that impossible. Traditional mages were never super hero's alone. I believe the only class even close to that was battlemages. Mages are weak in body stats .. strength, con, agility, ... fighting in the vbu system is even rougher than on the old client.. so I don't see the ability to cast a healing spell on themselves or their chosen tank/ meat shield making them a nonstop-able fighting machine. I look it more as a balancing of abilities and a chance to actual survive instead of living totally intown or at the cross. As Djironnyma said mages work best in a group setting.

I would like to see the new system similar to the old in that mages can cast under attack if the timing is right ((not sure how this would work in the current client or if possible)). Mages are not front line fighters and wil never be as strong as when they are with others/melee that hold the monsters. The same would be true of a priest.

I sure hope my thoughts make sense.. i apologize if not,, its way too early and I am far sleep deprived :D.
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Ranwyln »

Have to agree to Dji in the things he wrote. Maybe it would be possible to add materials to spells. So e.g.

Fireball without materials: Casttime two seconds, low damage, some mana

Fireball with material (maybe a cut Ruby or something complete new): Casttime one second, low damage, less mana

would be possible to add a spell/skill to prepare gems to store some magic too than

it would drain some coins for gems like the repair costs of melees or arrows for archers, and a mage will think twice which spell to cast in a specific situation

with some sort of enchanting they would have a craft to earn money too and maybe it would be possible to make items like the books with spells on it (like scroll of fireball, only readable once with xx Int )

I Fear a mage/priest will be reduced always to a few spells and the rest will be more rp/fun things like light, faerie fire, maybe polymorph and so on.
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Tinuva Geogroda »

Ranwyln wrote: I Fear a mage/priest will be reduced always to a few spells and the rest will be more rp/fun things like light, faerie fire, maybe polymorph and so on.
Those things are just as important as fighting spells or healing.
We play a RP-enforce game, not a gladiator arena match :P
All 'useless' spells for 'normal' MMO's should get the same attention here.
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Jupiter »

Tinuva Geogroda wrote:All 'useless' spells for 'normal' MMO's should get the same attention here.
Yep.
Coolness and showig off are very important in my eyes! :P
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Ranwyln »

Same to me (even if i prolly will never play a caster ;) )
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Uhuru »

Ranwyln wrote:Have to agree to Dji in the things he wrote. Maybe it would be possible to add materials to spells. So e.g.

Fireball without materials: Casttime two seconds, low damage, some mana

Fireball with material (maybe a cut Ruby or something complete new): Casttime one second, low damage, less mana

would be possible to add a spell/skill to prepare gems to store some magic too than

it would drain some coins for gems like the repair costs of melees or arrows for archers, and a mage will think twice which spell to cast in a specific situation

with some sort of enchanting they would have a craft to earn money too and maybe it would be possible to make items like the books with spells on it (like scroll of fireball, only readable once with xx Int )

I Fear a mage/priest will be reduced always to a few spells and the rest will be more rp/fun things like light, faerie fire, maybe polymorph and so on.
I do like where you are heading with this as long as we keep in mind that casters aren't powerful strong. A few gemstones is one thing, but no way could they carry gold ingots for instance. And if you start talking the need to carry around different colored gemstones for different spells, it may start becoming a burden. Please just keep in mind their strength limitations. Thanks.
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