Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Velisai
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Velisai »

Lia wrote:Dennoch bin ich die Möglichkeit das es vereinzelten Spielern die Möglichkeit gewehrt werden sollten einen MagierLEHRER zu spielen.
Wenn das Erlernen der Magie von einem spielergesteuerten Lehrer gegenüber dem NPC-Lernystem keine technischen Vorteile wie Zeitersparnis mit sich bringt, dann bleibt nur der Vorteil dass zwei Spieler das RP einer Lehrer-Schüler Beziehung genießen können. Was spricht dafür das zu begrenzen?

Was das alte Lehrsystem erst zu einer Quelle der Frustration gemacht hat, war dass Spieler stets OOC auf die Gunst anderer angewiesen waren, damit sie die Rolle einnehmen durften, die sie wollten. Wir haben auch kein Komitee, das entscheidet wer Alchemielehrer spielen darf, Schwertmeister, Medicos oder Zwiebelbauern. Wieso sollte die Magie da eine Ausnahme sein?

Was wir haben sind Regeln, die beschreiben welche Verhaltensweisen in dieser Community unerwünscht sind. Diese sollten für alle gleich sein, egal was für Charaktere wir spielen.
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Lia
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Lia »

Velisai wrote: Was wir haben sind Regeln, die beschreiben welche Verhaltensweisen in dieser Community unerwünscht sind. Diese sollten für alle gleich sein, egal was für Charaktere wir spielen.
Worauf willst du hinaus? Das man keinen Spieler bevorzugen sollte? Das wirst du wohl nirgends finden.
Auch wenn Illarion die beste Community hat welche ich bisher durch meine Erfahrung auf diversen Servern sammeln konnte, und hier die Warscheinlichkeit das man negativ einander gegenüber tritt deutlich geringer ist, wirst du hier immer jemand finden der Spieler A Spieler X vorzieht weil sie sich gut verstehen.

Das einzige was ich mit 95% tiger Sicherheit behaupten würde ist das kein Spieler auf seinen Charakter reduziert wird.
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Velisai
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Velisai »

Ich will mit diesem Satz auf folgendes hinaus:
Wir sollten davon ausgehen dass sich Spieler, die sich während ihrer eigenen Magieausbildung so weit in die Community eingefügt haben, dass es keinen Anlass gab sie wegen irgendwelchen Regelverletzungen vom Spiel auszuschließen, durchaus in der Lage sind sich auch als Spieler von Magielehrern weiter vernünftig zu verhalten. Wenn das im Einzelfall mal nicht so ist, dann kann ein uneinsichtiger Spieler, der das Spielerlehrsystem missbraucht, immernoch verbannt werden wie alle anderen die irgend ein anderes Feature des Spiels missbrauchen. So weit zu OOC.

IC sind auch richtig miese Lehrer kein Problem, das über irgendwelche IC/OOC Mischmaschmechanismen wie ein Komitee aus GM Chars gelöst werden müsste. Das lässt sich auch einfach komplett IC regeln, solange es die Wahl gibt den Lehrer zu wechseln.
EnderDDT
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by EnderDDT »

I know I am a bit late getting to this conversation, but let me try to get this straight (and please correct me if I am wrong, I only know what the forums and archives and other research can tell me). Most everyone is basing their idea of the future somewhat upon what was true in the past, so I'm going to try to put together what everyone is talking about as best as I can. Once that is done, mabie the future can become more clear.

There were no formal priests of any kind, so far as mechanics go, but there were some people who roll-played priests (with various levels of success). The only ideas people have from the past are things that happened as part of RP and things from outside sources.

Mages used runes that were combined together to get effects that had some aspects of all the runes that were added together. The system itself was sometimes elaborate or confusing due to the non-standardized nature of it (runes sometimes had multiple possible effects and not all combinations did anything). Casters could be interrupted, but they could also stun an opponent. They had a minimum stat requirement and all their ability was based off of int (stat for skills), will (stat for damage/effect), and Ess (stat for mana pool /recovery); so this set of stat requirements meant that mages were very rarely very good at fighting or gatherer/crafting because their stat points were used elsewhere. The one partial exception was the warior-mage, who took the bare minimum stats to become a mage and put the rest into their physical attributes. This gave them absurd power because they could both fight and cast spells (not to mention use potions), this compared to others who could only fight or cast. They might not have been as good at either, but the combination meant a lot. The major downsides for mages were the long and difficult learing curve, the stat splitting, the reliance on mana, and the long and difficult learning curve. Seriously, from everything I have read the learning curve was long and difficult in every aspect. You had to learn the spell runes from a teacher (more on the teaching system later), and then level up like half a dozen skills or more (hard to tell an exact number), all these skills were hard to raise, and you still needed to learn the other normal skills as well if you wanted to make money or fight. Mages could be countered by others raising one skill (spell resistance), but this was rarely done because casters were so often binary; most players either seemed to have no real problem with them (the "casters die easy if you rush them" sentiment) or were completely overwhelmed (the "please nerf them" sentiment) but seemingly never in between by any non-mage player.

A lot of discussion has been made about the teaching system because it was "problematic" at times. You had to find a teacher, who had to be on when you were, who had to not stop playing before you had finished your course, restrictions on how fast you were taught (were these RP restrictions or coded? no way to tell) meant that it took a minimum of a few months to learn, and interactions (both IC and OOC) sometimes put a complete halt on training. A lot of players outright quit the game because it was too hard to find teachers, keep teachers, or not run afoul of some interaction (very often the accusation was made that this was OOC interactions that went sour, not IC; and often it was said that this favor/avoidance happened at the start) and be punished by being heald back. Even someone who liked the system admits that it took THREE YEARS to learn all the runes. That's right, three entire RL years. The players who saw this as a chalenge to prove themselves remained and are thankful for how the difficulty proved themselves. The rest: they mostly gave up and often left the game. The obviously negative impact of this (on retention, if nothing else) is what led to the idea of NPC teachers.

Concerning druids(or alchemists), they make potions made mostly out of gatherable or findable items (with bottles and gem dust added in). This has the advantage in that, in the moment of need, they are only limited by what they carry, and so could theoretically last nearly forever. The potions can do everything from healing, to stat boosters, to mana recovery, to transformation (not sure what this actually does), to temporarily using other languages, to "mana bombs" (seemingly drains mana? I think), to unstoppable damage bombs; so druids were pretty powerful even without the other abilities that they might have had. I read somewhere about looking at stats and summoning animals, though I'm not sure if those were only talked about or actually implemented. The combination of "essences" within plants seemed like it should be pretty confusing, especially with how many combinations of how many things there were, far more than the runic system, but this was never really something people complained about. Apparently there was enough sharing of information or something else to keep it from being a problem. The main disadvantage was that it took lots of time or money to gather the materials, so they payed for their strength of "instant spam" with "advanced preparation". Druids/alchemists also were highly favored because they didn't have any requirements to become one (either stat or RP hoops to jump through); and going from average to good at it only required one stat (per), something fighters and possibly crafters (haven't done as much research there) could use anyway. One secondary aspect of them that gives something of a comparative disadvantage was that anyone with the right connections and enough coin could buy their way into having all the power of a druid at their disposal without having to become an actual druid (just buy the potions off of one). That said, if you are talking about Pre-VBU with two sufficently ready characters that are using only their own strengths, it seems like a pure alchemist would beat a pure mage every time. Mana-bombs+ stat potions+ damage bombs+ healing potions+ extra free stat points= one dead mage. In fact the extra stat points pre-vbu made them better at absolutely everything they focused on than a mage could possibly hope to be. Not sure about their post-VBU stat-necessities (as it will be after their eventual update), but it seems to still be pretty low comparatively.

So is this correct? Did I miss anything? It is hard to tell what's what just from archives and such, so I won't be upset if I got some things completely wrong.
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Jupiter
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Jupiter »

I read somewhere about looking at stats and summoning animals,
Stat reading yes; summoning no.
Druids/alchemists also were highly favored because they didn't have any requirements to become one (either stat or RP hoops to jump through); and going from average to good at it only required one stat (per),
There was indeed no requirement. Attributes had no role at all, also not pereception.
it seems like a pure alchemist would beat a pure mage every time.
No.
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Ufedhin
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Ufedhin »

EnderDDT wrote:Concerning druids(or alchemists), they make potions made mostly out of gatherable or findable items (with bottles and gem dust added in). This has the advantage in that, in the moment of need, they are only limited by what they carry, and so could theoretically last nearly forever. The potions can do everything from healing, to stat boosters, to mana recovery, to transformation (not sure what this actually does), to temporarily using other languages, to "mana bombs" (seemingly drains mana? I think), to unstoppable damage bombs; so druids were pretty powerful even without the other abilities that they might have had. I read somewhere about looking at stats and summoning animals, though I'm not sure if those were only talked about or actually implemented. The combination of "essences" within plants seemed like it should be pretty confusing, especially with how many combinations of how many things there were, far more than the runic system, but this was never really something people complained about. Apparently there was enough sharing of information or something else to keep it from being a problem. The main disadvantage was that it took lots of time or money to gather the materials, so they payed for their strength of "instant spam" with "advanced preparation". Druids/alchemists also were highly favored because they didn't have any requirements to become one (either stat or RP hoops to jump through); and going from average to good at it only required one stat (per), something fighters and possibly crafters (haven't done as much research there) could use anyway. One secondary aspect of them that gives something of a comparative disadvantage was that anyone with the right connections and enough coin could buy their way into having all the power of a druid at their disposal without having to become an actual druid (just buy the potions off of one). That said, if you are talking about Pre-VBU with two sufficently ready characters that are using only their own strengths, it seems like a pure alchemist would beat a pure mage every time. Mana-bombs+ stat potions+ damage bombs+ healing potions+ extra free stat points= one dead mage. In fact the extra stat points pre-vbu made them better at absolutely everything they focused on than a mage could possibly hope to be. Not sure about their post-VBU stat-necessities (as it will be after their eventual update), but it seems to still be pretty low comparatively.
Please do play an alchemist before commenting ,as this is in no way helpful or acurate.
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Velisai
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Velisai »

Pre VBU, even non fighting mages were pretty powerful if they had all the runes and at least mediocre skill. This was mainly due to the paralyze spell. If the mage managed to paralyze you, which took about 1-2 secs to cast, you were dead.
Mages had following abilities: heal, AoE heal, damage (also AoE versions which were never used except for the pretty visuals), paralyze, poison, depoison, put up temporary walls and flames (serious damage if you stand in one), short range teleportation, casting portals to many map locations, repelling chars and monsters with wind gusts (often even through impassable terrain), moving items remotely, summoning animals, monsters and undead, giving runes to other chars
Not quite sure if I didn't forget something, as I never played a mage and it's been a while since anyone did.

Fighters with the right stats, skills and quick, dual wielded weapons could kill any non-fighter mage easily if they were close enough and got the first strike in, as being hit constantly at a rate of 2 or more hits/sec made it impossible to cast anything. A mage who could dodge very well, had better chances to survive, but if the fighter used amethyst gemmed daggers or comparably fast weapons, it would still be near impossible to dodge often enough in a row to cast something.

The magic resistance skill was one of the hardest to raise and useless in PvP with low mage attributes. It was also capped, relatively to the sum of Intelligence, Essence & Willpower. My own char had a sum of 25 points in those attributes and couldn't skill up past 50% without drinking lots of attribute raisers. This means, that only chars with good mage attributes (and hence, mediocre to bad fighting attributes) could ever hope to withstand the spells of a decent mage with a gemmed wand.

Alchemy has been far too complicated (and caused hand pains from all the drag & dropping) to be fun for the vast majority of players, but was wildly overpowered in the sense that if you took the time and effort to prepare, you'd become nearly unstoppable. A fact known to few at the time, due to the low number of advanced alchemist chars. As mentioned, there were no stat requirements at all. The ruby potion effects stacked up to at least 25 points in any attribute, which could make your char a demigod for about 20 minutes with some preparation effort of maybe 2 hours plus the rare herbs needed(which were not too easy to find), if he/she also had fighting skills and some magic resistance. Bombs were powerful as far as damage goes, but it took time to use them, as you had to take them into a hand slot, activate, then throw by drag and drop (chance to miss is not negligible). Using bombs also meant that you can't hold weapon or shield while you bomb things. A bombing alchemist would lose to a half decent mage every time, unless the mage lags out or just fumbles up massively.
Transformation means taking the appearance of another race (or a monster pre VBU) btw. We also used to have the ability to repair non-magical items (very important to keep your hard earned magic gems working for you all the time and indefinitely pre VBU, as they couldn't be removed from items), reduce skill cap (skill gain has been reworked since, so just forget about this), and some other, more obscure things in the past.

The alchemy system we have now is simplified, the potion effects do not stack anymore and we do not have the ability to view all sorts of stats and variables of any char or monster. Bombs have been seriously nerfed. It is also still unfinished and will be expanded in a not yet clearly specified way. The attribute requirement is at least 30 points total in Intelligence, Essence and Perception, so it is still viable to combine alchemy and fighting, but not with maxed fighting attributes anymore.


I hope that helps understand where we're coming from and some of the issues that will have to be avoided in the future.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Thanks a lot for the summaries from your experience! I am not going to write down mine, but for all those who did not join the game in 2002 like me, there were several methods to learn magic in the past, before the teacher drama started:

-Buy a rune books from Eliza (or was is Sam) for 250 copper coins. Use it to learn a specific rune
-Read a book in the library to learn a random rune
-Use a staff with one of several magic stones and donate an item to a NPC (including items that could not be obtained in any way...) to get a specific rune
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GolfLima
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by GolfLima »

Estralis Seborian wrote:-Buy a rune books from Eliza (or was is Sam) for 250 copper coins. Use it to learn a specific rune
:arrow: 250 copper coins - realy cheap to buy a rune
Estralis Seborian wrote:-Read a book in the library to learn a random rune
:arrow: reading books - i remember i have to read a lot to increase the reading skill ... may be my char has changed from crafter to mage if he had this chance

==> seems it was much easier to become a mage at the beginning of illarion before the teacher system was implemented
EnderDDT
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by EnderDDT »

So a basic question that I don't think has actually been answered yet, what exactly are the GMs and developers looking for in terms of basic expectations for how magic and other things will work (before other things are added in)? Afterall, it doesn't do a lot of good to make suggestions if those in charge have already decided on something completely different.

For instance if the GMs/developers are looking for a system where each character picks one form of magic (so that essentially there are 3 classes, though each of these would be divided into those more focused on the magic itself vs other things like fighting) than I would suggest removing the entry restriction but placing a restriction on some of the more powerful spells. This would allow for hedgewizard types, as opposed to just pure "mages"; Dabblers, as opposed to true alchemists/druids; and Palidins, as opposed to Priests. Converseley if the goal is to have four "classes" (with fighters being one and the magic using classes being seperated) than the clearest solution (that I can think of) would be to leave in the stat restriction but have the stat releveled (in terms of the use of magic) so that 10 counts as a "one" in the stat, 11 counts as 2, 12 counts as 3, etc. (which would require a rebalancing of magic, but that's not so hard). This would make it so that, while someone could technically cross class by making a battlemage with only the most basic stats for wichever magic class, they would be severely handicapped compared to someone who really dove into it.

Personally I like the first because it includes more possibilities for characters and, more importantly, insures that every character has some use for every stat. If certain stats have absolutely no use for characters than we will end up with a lot of really dumb essanceless fighters (as in, literally mentally retarded and their light burns so dimly that the gods have more regard for some animals); this despite the fact that very few people will actually play the characters as though they have the mental abilities their stats indicate. While there are significant downsides to dropping the physical stats, aside from the use of magic there doesn't seem to be such obvious and easily noticeable downsides to dropping the mental stats.

So, that said, what ideas do the GMs/Developers have? (not being a GM/developer myself, I tend to wonder)
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Jupiter
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Jupiter »

No mixing of magic classes. That's probably something most people don't want. Including myself.
toonnee
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by toonnee »

Nargun priests should have only one ability.

ลุ้นไปกับเกมส์บาคาร่าออนไลน์ เสมือนเล่นจริงที่คาสิโน สมัครเลยวันนี้ รับฟรีโปรโมชั่นมากมายและเงินรางวัลหลายล้านบาท สมัคร บาคาร่าออนไลน์
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Jupiter
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Jupiter »

Random event?
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Estralis Seborian »

To grave dig old threads? :-P
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Re: Illarion Magic Systems/Illarions Magiesysteme

Post by Morbius »

Maybe they want to...





...discuss (thread) necromancy?
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