Illarion Open Source Initiative

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Vilarion
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Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Vilarion »

Dear players,

in about three weeks, on October 5th, the Illarion Society will decide whether to release scripts and maps under an open source license or not.

Maps describe where items and tiles are placed in our world. Scripts define all game behaviour, from opening doors to fighting system, NPCs, monsters and complex quests.
Those contents (and also the server in the future) will probably be released under GNU AGPL v3.

There are certain benefits to an open source approach and over the years the lead developers have come to the conclusion, that it is the only valid approach to run a free project and ensure its continued existence.
  • Even regular players can contribute to development. Yes, that is right. Ever saw one of those annoying spelling mistakes and had no means to just go ahead and fix it? Well, when the scripts are open source, we will release some simple instructions how you can do just that! Found a glitch in a map? Just fix it! It is that simple.
  • Getting into development is so much easier. By far! For their development work our scripters use their own local server, which runs in a virtual machine on their PC at home! When maps and scripts are open source, we can freely distribute this server! Every potential developer, or every player just for the the heck of it, can download it and connect to it with the client. Simply edit an NPC at home, or add your own? No Problem! Just place a bridge over that annoying river? Anytime! And those changes can immediately be tested and experienced. From there it is just a small step to offer them to the game.
  • Trained professionals are reluctant to help out in a non-free project if they are not otherwise connected to it. They usually (with a few exceptions), create proprietary software at work, so they would like to see voluntary work not to be hidden in some vault somewhere.
  • Closed source does not offer any security/secrecy at all. We have no means to check whether a contributer is trustworthy. We cannot make them sign NDAs with hefty fines and we cannot really get to know them, since we work with people from all over the world whom we will never meet. So when somebody asks to contribute we just give them access. Closed source either merely offers an illusion of security or even stalls development in these kinds of projects. Projects died because the administrators were afraid to give anyone access.
These changes, if accepted, will influence the future of Illarion. These are exciting times!
I will be happy to answer any questions you have regarding this subject.

So long and have fun playing,
Vilarion

----------------------------------

Liebe Spieler,

in etwa drei Wochen, am 5. Oktober, wird der Illarion e. V. darüber entscheiden ob Skripte und Karten unter einer Open-Source Lizenz veröffentlicht werden sollen.

Karten beschreiben wo und wie in unserer Welt Felder und Gegenstände platziert werden. Skripte definieren jegliches Verhalten des Spiels, angefangen beim Öffnen von Türen bis zum Kampfsystem, NPCs, Monstern und komplexen Quests. Diese Inhalte (und auch der Server in Zukunft) werden vermutlich unter der GNU AGPL v3 veröffentlicht werden.

Es gibt einige Vorteile, die der Open-Source-Ansatz mit sich bringt und über die Jahre sind die leitenden Entwickler zu dem Schluss gekommen, dass dies der einzige taugliche Ansatz ist, ein solches freies Projekt zu betreiben und den Fortbestand zu gewährleisten.
  • Sogar normale Spieler können etwas zur Entwicklung beitragen. Ja, das ist korrekt. Habt ihr jemals einen dieser nervigen Rechtschreibfehler gesehen und hattet keine Möglichkeit ihn einfach zu beheben? Nun, wenn die Skripte Open-Source sind, dann werden wir eine einfache Anleitung veröffentlichen wie ihr genau das machen könnt. Ihr findet einen Fehler in einer Karte? Behebt ihn einfach! Es ist so einfach.
  • Der Einstieg für neue Entwickler wird einfacher. Um ein Vielfaches! Unsere Skripter benutzen zum Entwickeln einen eigenen lokalen Server, der in einer virtuellen Maschine läuft, auf dem Rechner zuhause! Sind Karten und Skripte Open-Source, so können wir diesen Server frei verteilen! Jeder potenzielle Entwicker, jeder Spieler, und sei es nur zum Spaß, kann ihn herunterladen und sich mit dem Client dorthin verbinden. Einfach mal zuhause einen NPC ändern, oder einen eigenen hinzufügen? Kein Problem! Mal eine Brücke über einen störenden Fluss setzen? Jederzeit! Und diese Änderungen können sofort selber ausprobiert und erfahren werden. Von dort aus ist es nur noch ein kleiner Schritt sie auch dem Spiel anzubieten.
  • Profis zögern im Allgemeinen einem nicht-freien Projekt zu helfen wenn sie ihm nicht anderweitig verbunden sind. Sie schreiben für gewöhnlich (mit ein paar Ausnahmen) nicht-freie Software für ihre Firma und möchten ihre freiwillige Arbeit dann nicht auch in irgendwelchen Bunkern verschwinden sehen.
  • Nicht-freie Software bietet keinerlei Sicherheit noch Geheimhaltung. Wir haben keine Mittel und Wege festzustellen ob jemand der etwas beitragen möchte vertrauenswürdig ist. Wir können niemanden zwingen ein NDA mit saftigen Geldstrafen zu unterzeichnen und wir können diese Personen nicht wirklich kennenlernen, da wir mit Leuten aus der ganzen Welt zusammenarbeiten, die wir nie treffen werden. Wenn also jemand etwas beisteuern will geben wir ihm einfach Zugriff. Nicht-öffentliche Quellcodes bieten also nur eine Illusion von Sicherheit oder lähmen sogar die Entwicklung in derartigen Projekten. Projekte sind eingegangen, weil die Administratoren Angst hatten irgendwem Zugriff zu geben.
Diese Änderungen werden, wenn sie vorgenommen werden, die Zukunft von Illarion beeinflussen. Dies sind spannende Zeiten!
Gerne beantworte ich alle Fragen die ihr zu dem Thema habt.

Bis dann und viel Spaß beim Spielen,
Vilarion
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Azuros
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Azuros »

Just for clarification, I have a few questions:

If it were open source, you said anyone can make fixes and changes, but I'm assuming there's still some screening process. Is this correct?

If for example, a player decided to fix a spelling mistake, how easy would the process be to correct it? It seems to (uninformed!) me like it might be time consuming to search through what I imagine must be quite a lot of scripts.

For bigger changes such as edits to the map or entirely new scripts, what extra screening, if any, would submissions have to go through?

Lastly, is there any worry that releasing the scripts to the public might result in meta gaming, with players having access to exact formulas for stats/skills/etc.?


Though obviously I don't know much on the matter, it seems to me like this would be a good idea to promote growth of the game. This gives players who want certain development the ability to take it into their own hands. If someone had the coding ability or the will/time to learn, and they thought "Illa really needs a magic system!" but all the devs were busy with their own thing, there is the option to come up with something yourself and submit it.
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Vilarion
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Vilarion »

Yes, there will still be screening. However, we can see the diff of what was done. So for a spelling mistake we just have to look at one line and then merely accept the change. Finding the place in the code will be part of the mentioned instructions. Most of the time it will be an NPC which is really easy to find. But even if not, we will give you the tools to find the location of a given phrase in the source, so that you can do it as quickly as we could.

The concern about meta-gaming has been addressed before. That is what I was talking about in the security/secrecy section. Meta-gaming is possible just the same now, because you can easily get the code or have someone get it for you. It is just as easy as downloading it. So in regard to meta-gaming possibilities nothing really changes, but it is still not allowed.
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Nikolaus
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Nikolaus »

Scroll down for english post.

Meiner Meinung nacht hat diese Veröffentlichung aber nicht nur Vorteile.

Die positiven Effekte wurden dargestellt, nun möchte ich ein paar der, meiner Meinung nach, negativen aufzählen.


- Wir bieten damit ein Lösungshandbuch an. Die, die es benutzen, haben Vorteile gegenüber denen, die es nicht benutzen.

- Wir zerstören Spielspaß. Die Versuchung die Scripte zu Rate zu ziehen um ein gewisses Rästel zu lösen ist immer gegeben. Man ist zwar selbst schuld, wenn man dies tut, doch sehe ich keinen Grund dies zu fördern.

-Meiner Erfahrung nach kommen die meisten Entwickler zum Entwickeln von Illarion, weil sie vorher das Spiel gespielt haben. Denn auch jetzt bekommt jeder sofort die Möglichkeit zu helfen wenn er das will.

-Es demotiviert Content Entwickler. Die Motivation Rätsel oder Ähnliches einzubauen sinkt, da sie ja leicht durch Kontrolle der Scripte gelöst werden können. Die Weitergabe von Informationen unter Spielern wäre zwar auch in dieser Richtung, findet aber nicht so häufig statt.

- Wir animieren zum Regelbruch. Das Mischen von OOC und IG ist verboten. Doch ist dies äußerst schwierig wenn man jedes Script kennt, ich merke es selbst. Sehe ich zum Beispiel diverse NPC ingame kann ich mich oft daran erinnern wie genau die Quest abläuft und welche Belohnungen es etwa gibt, das ist durchaus störend.


Nikolaus ~ Nalcaryos

//


I my opinion they are some negative effects too.


-We offer an answer book. Those that use it have benefits.

-We destroy gaming experience. The temptation do look into the scripts for information always is there. Yes, its your own fault if you do that, but I think we don't have to encourage this behavior.

-In my experience most developers start developing because they play Illarion and don't suddenly appear.

-It demotivates content developers. The Motivation to script riddles or things like that might drop if you know that anybody can easily see all the solutions.

-We animate to break the rules. Mixing IG and OOC is forbidden, but its very difficult not to do that if you have knowledge of all scripts.

Nikolaus~Nalcaryos
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Mephistopheles
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Mephistopheles »

I also believe this is true, but perhaps we can have limited data? like maybe a list of items and a list of Monster lvs, but not all maps and were to find such and such. Despite the frustration of not knowing and having a hard time finding out certain ig things, like where to obain certain items or how to gain a particular skill, I like finding it out ig and sharing my knowledge with other players or even keeping some knowledge to myself =P. why would we need ig researchers if everybody knows everything??? that hurts roleplay badly
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Jupiter
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Jupiter »

I'll put it short:

There are information in the scripts (and the maps) I don't want to be publicly accessable (e.g. riddles, quests, secrets, formulas of fighting).
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by martin »

@Formulas for fighting:
Why should they be kept secret?

I can understand that riddles etc. might be a problem (however, once solved they leak anyway and those who can read sourcecode are welcomed anyway...), but honestly, I don't think that too many people who can't read/view/... it now will do that in the future.

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Jupiter
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Jupiter »

martin,

That is one point I strongly disagree with. When I started scripting, it was rather easy to understand the scripts. Not in details and more then often I failed to understand the "technical side" of it, but I got the basic ideas and all the big things. Most of the stuff is probably quite readable. There is a huge difference between getting one or two information from a script and to understand it completely or even being able to do stuff on your own.

The it leaks now already, too, thing: Well, yes, sure. But we don't want those leaks. Why opening watergate then? We would actually start to encourage this behaviour. We would permit it. Soem say then: "No, we do not permit it! It would be still using oocly knowledge ig and therefore it is not allowed." But let's be honest, that is a strange view. We make the information publicly accessable but we expect them not to be used ingame?
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by martin »

Can you name me one, just a single, example for a case that you fear?
Maybe I just lack understanding of what we're talking about.

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Jupiter
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Jupiter »

Simple example: Imagine a riddle master. He gives you one question a day or something like this. And there is a huge pool of possible questions (hundreds). You answer right, you get a reward. You answer wrong, you get nothing. Imagine further that those questions are kinda difficult, so no 3+3 = 6 questions. Of course, you can aks ooc for the answers. However, that is something we do not approve. Yet, it can happen. But mind the huge pool of questions. It is very likely that just a few pople got that question already once and know the answer. So maybe you cannot ask those persons because you dont know them or they are one of those fine people telling you that they won't tell ig sercets (a behaviour we are certainly fond of).

If there is easy access to the scripts this whole thing is useless. It is no real riddle master, but a "look it in the scripts up"-master. And let's be honest. To look up something like this in the scripts (find the right answer to a question) is in no way difficult. If it is difficult to see that in the script, the script is an unreadable mess and should be deleted. The whole point of the riddle maste would be gone.

I think that example shows the flaws. You don't need to be able to actually read and understand code to find this out. You cannot actually think that :D There will be something in the code like:
Question = {}
Question[1] = {question = "what is 3+3?", answer="Six",wrongAnswer1="Seven",wrongAnswer2="Nine",wrongAnswer3="23454324"}

And now tell me that you need to be abel to code to get what the right answer is! You don't need to know why there are those funny brackets to get the answer. And by the way, I always wanted to have a riddle master of this kind ingame one day. But I really wouldn't bother to write it when I know that the code is open source.
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pharse
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by pharse »

May I add something:

There are thousands of games out there with cheat codes and full walkthroughs available. Yet dedicated players try to solve everything on their own first and only use these help texts if they get stuck. And to be honest: every game designer publishes games exactly for those dedicated players who appreciate the game and its content and who enjoy the game and have fun solving riddles - not for those who grab the first cheat code and try to break the game as fast as possible.

I also would not mind to actually provide real walkthroughs, so everyone could look this up without the hassle of reading the scripts.

Best example probably: alchemy. It can be real fun to try different ingredients to produce the perfect potions. However once you have worked a lot with it and you might quit for some months and then start playing again. Maybe you don't remember everything correctly anymore, then it would be very helpful to access all those recipes somewhere so you don't have to find this out again on your own. Otherwise the player might be annoyed. However with a walkthrough the player can just look it up and focus again on roleplay.
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Djironnyma »

pharse wrote:May I add something:

There are thousands of games out there with cheat codes ...
How many of them are multiplayer games? :D

I think the problem isn’t that a player could destroy his own fun - if he don’t like to FOIG but read in some Code who cares? - But we have to discuss how that will influence players which like to find out IG, will they feel such easy way as unfair? Will they feel the pressure to do it the same way because it’s possible faster? I think it is a valid point that that showing ooc solutions for IG problems can destroy players fun, even if they don’t use them. Just imagine how a player will feel who did FOIG a hard problem/quest but is treated like he just read it in the code?
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pharse
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by pharse »

Just imagine how a player will feel who did FOIG a hard problem/quest but is treated like he just read it in the code?
Well, if you want to brag about how cool and smart you are because you just solved that riddle, well, this won't work anymore then, there you are right. However the dedicated players I mentioned usually do this just for their own fun. Illarion is a game recommended for mature players - they certainly don't need such appreciation from random strangers in the internet.

Furthermore, quests with a static solution are usually single player quests, so Illarion has also a single player part.

Best is we try to keep the single player separate from the multiplayer part and use mainly dynamic systems for the multiplayer quests (of course possible for the single player quests too!), e.g. a lever quest where the correct combination is dynamically chosen. Or even better: quests that change by the players' interaction.

Anyway you are of course right, we have to consider how this single player / multiplayer mix up could be realized without destroying the fun of (a lot of) players. They should not feel treated unfairly, so maybe the available information should not grant a huge advantage if exploited (i.e. quest rewards should be reasonable).
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Mephistopheles »

I really don't like this idea of complete information... I would think that a map, a list of items, and monster lvs (not stats or loot, just lvs for those who need to figure out what to train on) would be quite enough. fighting formulas, loot, riddles... please don't release all this cus that would really hurt illa bad. just wouldn't be the same like that.
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Achae Eanstray »

I don't know much about scripting nor open source and will never bother to look at it however I believe our players are honest, won't use it where not intended and it may be good if we can trade with others and use their open source. There is a wealth of information that is open source.
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Fooser »

Will we finally figure out what rings do?
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Annabeth »

As someone studying to be able to script games on my own, open source would be something I'd love to see later on when I'd be more capable of understanding it, even if just to see how this game I love so much is built.
On the other side, I see how people could abuse it to "cheat" at certain aspects of the game. As much as this game is intended for mature players, that description does not always match the player base, so it would definitely be abused.
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Vilarion
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Vilarion »

Scripts and maps are now publicly available.

Skripte und Karten sind jetzt öffentlich verfügbar.
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by arrchayx »

Why split, i still dont understand whats is going on with that pre-compiled packages...
First thing: compiled graphics files... What precompiled packages ? I know program is a compiled code, i know package can be tar,zip,rar but compiled package ? And graphics there ? You say im downloading these packages to the client, so where are these downloaded packages then ?
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by Kira »

arrchayx wrote:Why split, i still dont understand whats is going on with that pre-compiled packages...
First thing: compiled graphics files... What precompiled packages ? I know program is a compiled code, i know package can be tar,zip,rar but compiled package ? And graphics there ? You say im downloading these packages to the client, so where are these downloaded packages then ?
To keep the forum cleaner your questions were moved to a different topic. Now there is a section specifically for questions like yours:

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... =1&t=39953

Please continue with your questions over there instead.
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Re: Illarion Open Source Initiative

Post by arrchayx »

Oh, okay, thanks :)
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