Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

Moderator: Gamemasters

What is your opinion on the high score lists? // Was ist deine Meinung zu den Bestenlisten?

Poll ended at Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:40 pm

Do not change them at all. // Sie sollen gar nicht geändert werden.
14
29%
Remove them, completely. // Sie sollen komplett entfernt werden.
19
40%
Allow players to hide their characters' names on the lists. // Spielern erlauben, die Namen ihrer Charaktere zu verbergen.
11
23%
Change some but not all (Elaborate which ones). // Einige ändern aber nicht alle (Erläutere welche).
4
8%
 
Total votes: 48

User avatar
Achae Eanstray
Posts: 4300
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:03 am
Location: A field of dandelions
Contact:

Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Feel free to add comments about the lists below // Du kannst Kommentare zu den Listen einfach unten posten.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IMPORTANT POINT WITH THIS POLL:
No matter the outcome, the implementation of the outcome is likely not happening instantly, for the lack of website developers. Thank you for your opinion. // Unabhängig vom Ausgang wird die Implementierung, mangels genügend Web-Entwickler, wahrscheinlich nicht sofort geschehen. Danke für deine Meinung.
User avatar
Achae Eanstray
Posts: 4300
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:03 am
Location: A field of dandelions
Contact:

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Achae Eanstray »

I have only heard comments about Gold Rush and think that could easily mix in game and oocly elements.

I don't mind the other lists i.e. my chars can elect simply not to click on red stones, not to dig for treasure, not to pay coin to fight in the arena. The gold is harder NOT to participate in and some were unwittingly placed on the list before they knew there would be a list.

Therefore I would like to 1. either remove the gold list or 2. hide certain chars from getting on it...I don't care which.
Teflon
Posts: 938
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:53 pm

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Teflon »

How do you mean hidding? Do you mean that no one can see who you are but you are still on the list or that your are completely removed from the list?
User avatar
Salathe
Posts: 1741
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 3:42 am
Location: the magical land of narnia!
Contact:

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Salathe »

I voted change some but not all

I do like gold rush, but I believe it should only show faction high scores and not individual player high scores. Though... If it was done this way, it might have an unintended effect on new player faction choice... But at the same time, showing individual scores + faction scores will have the same effect.

High scores makes sense for arena master, since it is by nature competition based and supports an ingame scoreboard.

Illariontrotter is good content for new players. It provides some easy rewards to help get them started, and gives them some simple goals out in the wild. The highscore aspect doesnt cause any harm imo, at worst it causes people to compete and run out into the wilderness, something I think that is severely lacking from this game atm.

King of the shovel is great, gives more incentive to get together for some group play. Though, I have some concerns about how it adds up scores. To me there only seems to be two ways to collect treasure scores. First, only the person who digs the map recieves a point, and the rest do not. And the other method is the way it does so now, that everyone who participates receives a point. I'll break down my thoughts on each method

Only the digger receiving a score
-More accurately shows the total # of maps dug up.
-More prestige moving up the list
-May cause issues of who digs
-May cause people to drop groups and simply solo maps

Entire group receiving a score
-Promotes people to hunt in groups to receive a higher score on the list.
-Overall more group play and friendly environment.
-Inaccurately identifies how many maps were actually dug up.
-Can be abused to skew your factions score by bringing a massive group to complete maps that really only need 2-3 people.

In the end, I sort of think each option is fine. But I do believe a modifier should be added for the difficulty of maps. I haven't yet participated in this, so correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me that a map gives you 1 point regardless if it's a giant map or a small map. Points should be skewed.

Small map - 1 point
Average map - 3 points
Big map - 6 points
Large map - 10 points

This will more accurately show the accomplishment of the players for king of the shovel.

On the topic of whether or players should hide themselves, I don't believe they should able to hide themselves. But if this feature is added, their scores should still count towards the faction total.
Fooser
Posts: 4725
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:25 pm

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Fooser »

No need to change ... changing would require work to accomplish .. basically nothing.
User avatar
Jeisa
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:17 am

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Jeisa »

I voted to remove them completely, but if they do end up staying, I think that players should at least be allowed to hide their characters' names on the lists. I think the high scores kind of cheapen the game, making it more about numbers and ranks than the roleplay... or if one would like to argue about that, it undeniably could give a newcomer that impression - which is horrible, in my opinion.
User avatar
Tyan Masines
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Tyan Masines »

^
That was basically what I posted on the fist Highscores topic, just in German. So signed, and it's what I voted as well here.
User avatar
forty
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:37 pm
Location: Sleeping in a cart by Galmair Palace.

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by forty »

I am 100% with Jeisa and Tyan here.
User avatar
Vilarion
Developer
Posts: 2008
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Vilarion »

If you repeat your votes in text form, that is not helpful because it holds no additional weight. :P
You can, however, provide additional arguments.
User avatar
forty
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:37 pm
Location: Sleeping in a cart by Galmair Palace.

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by forty »

Additional arguments:

There are currently approximately 1234 games on the internet right now, in which you can compete in kills, gold, points, and any other various score.
An enforced roleplaying game supposedly focuses on storyline and plot, rather than on numerical achievement. Which, as Fooser pointed out, is no problem, because it doesn't affect roleplay. Except it totally does. It affects my roleplay by making me desire to accumulate these points and make it onto the high score tables, which means instead of having conversation with someone I would otherwise enjoy, I am frantically running around making gold, touching stones, or fighting monsters. I know it's my choice to do so, but the presense of high scores stimulates the competitive streak in me as a player, which is, honestly, unfair. Everyone likes to see their town succeed on the scores, and now I am split between making points or roleplaying.

Additional argument is players who have characters in three different towns. How do they choose which character to achieve high scores on? Does it mean the game promotes one "Main" character and other "secondary" characters? Should you gain points to the town your Main character is in and forsaken significance of the other characters? If I gain points on all three characters, then the town division becomes meaningless, as all three towns will benefit from my account's achievements. To make a difference in town score competition, I have to designate a Main Character. Why suggest to players to make these kinds of choices?
User avatar
TiaSarah
Posts: 969
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:05 am
Location: Corn country USA
Contact:

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by TiaSarah »

I will agree with forty on this one, not because I am one of the players driven to compete by the scores, but because I am the one wanting to have the conversation being avoided. There was one day that between two characters, who live in two different towns, I was told a dozen times "I'm sorry, I have a lot of work to do... No time to chat." After which, I watched some of the chars going back and forth to the mine, in and out of the workshop, or whispering to every NPC in the marketplace before dashing off again. I have even been told "Sorry, I need to make (x) gold before I go to sleep tonight, I can't talk." I understand that chars, like RL people, do get busy from time to time with orders to fill. But to simply be working so you can boost yourself on a scoreboard kind of defeats the purpose of an RPG. I have reached the point where I will look at the online list and debate getting IG based on the chars I know will RP and the ones I know are always too busy to talk.

That being said, I don't necessarily believe all of the scores are demon spawns that need to be sent back to the bowels of Hellsbriar. I agree with the suggestions of simply changing gold rush to be separated by faction only. It makes sense that the cities would compete to be wealthier than the others, especially Galmair. I don't understand the necessity of king of the shovel at all. And while the Illariontrotter does encourage more exploration, I'm not sure why it needs to be publicly displayed. Arena master, I am on the fence about. I think it encourages PGing more than anything, but in a RL setting, I can see how the great fighters and their rulers would want to shout their victories to the masses.

All in all, I think the scores are simply disenchanting to me. I joined Illarion because it was focused on RP and not points and levels. Perhaps I'm still mourning the loss of my colored bars for skills. Either way, if I wanted a game focused on scores and levels, I would have stayed with some of the more commercial games I've played.
User avatar
Nitram
Developer
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 am
Contact:

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Nitram »

You know that this large and very nice written text does not effect the poll what so ever. :D

Also you know that you do not attracked new players with roleplay in case there are so little players in the game that they do not meet anyone to roleplay with? So we put in highscores for additional motivation and tasks what new and old players could do. So the old players don't get bored and drop out of the game and the new player don't get bored and drop out of the game. This way a new player who does not meet anyone to roleplay finds some fancy colored stone, gets some gold and recognises that there is a highscores with exactly those stones! And "hey I can get on this highscore!!" and for the next hour or so he has something to do, stays in the game and increases the chance to find someone to roleplay with.

Sure those highscores are something many games have, but they are because they work. They cause players to compete and to keep their character in the game. And for the current state of the game this is really all that matter. We have to keep the players ingame, else no roleplay will happen, the player count will keep dropping, Illarion will die.

That is just about it.

Nitram
User avatar
forty
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:37 pm
Location: Sleeping in a cart by Galmair Palace.

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by forty »

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that according to statistics, you guys did something correctly and successfully right THERE.
Just do the same today. Whatever you were doing.
Attachments
stats.jpg
stats.jpg (99.55 KiB) Viewed 8635 times
User avatar
Nikolaus
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:01 pm
Location: Steiermark

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Nikolaus »

forty wrote:Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that according to statistics, you guys did something correctly and successfully right THERE.
Just do the same today. Whatever you were doing.
No, just no.
User avatar
Nitram
Developer
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 am
Contact:

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Nitram »

What you don't see at this chart. Two years before we had >600 active players. The area you are pointing at is but a minor stall at the free falling player count at this time. This stall was caused by us disabling the question challenge that was required to enter the game.

Nitram
Fooser
Posts: 4725
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:25 pm

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Fooser »

forty wrote:Additional arguments:

There are currently approximately 1234 games on the internet right now, in which you can compete in kills, gold, points, and any other various score.
An enforced roleplaying game supposedly focuses on storyline and plot, rather than on numerical achievement. Which, as Fooser pointed out, is no problem, because it doesn't affect roleplay. Except it totally does. It affects my roleplay by making me desire to accumulate these points and make it onto the high score tables, which means instead of having conversation with someone I would otherwise enjoy, I am frantically running around making gold, touching stones, or fighting monsters. I know it's my choice to do so, but the presense of high scores stimulates the competitive streak in me as a player, which is, honestly, unfair. Everyone likes to see their town succeed on the scores, and now I am split between making points or roleplaying.

Additional argument is players who have characters in three different towns. How do they choose which character to achieve high scores on? Does it mean the game promotes one "Main" character and other "secondary" characters? Should you gain points to the town your Main character is in and forsaken significance of the other characters? If I gain points on all three characters, then the town division becomes meaningless, as all three towns will benefit from my account's achievements. To make a difference in town score competition, I have to designate a Main Character. Why suggest to players to make these kinds of choices?
Those are both basically the same argument: It's Nitram's and Vil's responsibility to stop you from metagaming and not yours.
User avatar
Qeewee
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Qeewee »

Kinda seems like everyone wants the same thing? Scores attract players, keeping people busy with things to do when there is no rp. I think certain people will always remain competetive and pg instead of rping when rp then finally does come, but I believe most of them will finally succumb to the magic of rp seeing they joined this game in the first place.

I mean.. Goal besides rp = more active players + more players are likely to stick around = playerbase slowly rising = even if the percentages stay the same, it will still result in more roleplayers sticking about town ready to , well, rp

I do understand the point of view that this will attract pgers and that its bad and discourages rp, but the playerbase being so low, perhaps bringing in any kind of people to this game ( obviously certain exceptions) is what we need to get a larger playerbase with a more constant flow of roleplay where you dont have to sit up all night waiting for people to log on?
User avatar
Tyan Masines
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Tyan Masines »

Counter statement:

These Highscores will attract no new players, and will not keep people ig.

Furthermore, I know a few Hardcore RP players who were quite annoyed by the Highscores, and have not yet logged in. Since VBU, playerbase is decreasing, and this will not stop it from doing so.


I guess a good middle-ground would be to remove the Gold Highscore, and leaving the rest untouched? So far, "change nothing" is clearly losing, even more so since the last three points kind of add up. :)
User avatar
Nikolaus
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:01 pm
Location: Steiermark

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Nikolaus »

Tyan Masines wrote:Counter statement:

These Highscores will attract no new players, and will not keep people ig.

Furthermore, I know a few Hardcore RP players who were quite annoyed by the Highscores, and have not yet logged in. Since VBU, playerbase is decreasing, and this will not stop it from doing so.


I guess a good middle-ground would be to remove the Gold Highscore, and leaving the rest untouched? So far, "change nothing" is clearly losing, even more so since the last three points kind of add up. :)
We still have around 100 active players, same as before the VBU.
User avatar
Leena
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 9:15 pm
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Leena »

As a new player to this wonderfull world - I have to agree with keeping the high scores posting - the npc tasks kept me busy untill I started to meet so many friends - and a few foe's. It is the rp that keeps me coming back every day. I like the high scores - except the gold rush - a new player likes to see his/her name on the monthlies as on so many other things they can never compete with the long time players. The king of the shovel does encourage rp - we new players can not do them on our own. Leena
Fooser
Posts: 4725
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:25 pm

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Fooser »

So the arguments against seem to boil down to:
1- I need to be protected from other peoples metagaming
2- I need to be protected from my own metagaming
3- I'm pretentious and won't partake in anything with a scores list

and perhaps the only one with validity:
4- It gives the wrong impression to new people

which currently has no evidence
User avatar
rakust dorenstkzul
Posts: 2300
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:47 pm
Location: In the heart of every smiling child

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by rakust dorenstkzul »

I voted for removal, but i can see some arguments here changing my mind.

The main reason i voted for removal was so i could suggest better integration into the game world. For instance, how would my character know that Galmair is the poorest city? How would that work into Roleplay? It doesn't really provide anything. But if say.. The Proctor gave out tax info or something, this would filter down into the game world in a believable way. similarly with the maps, Perhaps One of the NPCS in the Hemp Necktie gave out statistics there?

I like the idea. But it could be implemented better.
User avatar
forty
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:37 pm
Location: Sleeping in a cart by Galmair Palace.

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by forty »

Fooser wrote:Those are both basically the same argument: It's Nitram's and Vil's responsibility to stop you from metagaming and not yours.
Hey, since it appears you're just trolling me, here is some personal insight. 8) Not sure about anybody else, can't talk for anyone but myself, but I play games to relax, and not to enter some sort of school of pseudo-moral self police. I am not saying it is anyone's responsibility to not metagame, but am saying that it's pointless to encourage a player towards metagaming by providing reasonable incentive for it. All my argument is based on is pointlessness of an attempt to encourage highscore based motivation. If I am running around the land discovering explorer stones, sure, I show up online, but I am nowhere near roleplaying hot-spots. So I make entirely no impact on another player staying ingame.

Is "players online" statistic more important than "quality time spent ingame" factor? Is the number of connected clients - a measurement of the game's success?
User avatar
Nitram
Developer
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 am
Contact:

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Nitram »

forty wrote:Is the number of connected clients - a measurement of the game's success?
Yes.
User avatar
forty
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:37 pm
Location: Sleeping in a cart by Galmair Palace.

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by forty »

Nitram wrote:
forty wrote:Is the number of connected clients - a measurement of the game's success?
Yes.
Would you be able to explain why it is better to have a large busy game with more players, but where only some of players roleplay, than a smaller less busy game with fewer players, but where everyone roleplays? Is the vision of the project no longer to create unique roleplaying environment, but rather, to create a popular product?
User avatar
Nitram
Developer
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 am
Contact:

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Nitram »

The vision was always to create a popular product within our limits. Why else would we create something like this?

And more players are better, because among those players will be those who find out or know that they like to roleplay. And if they don't, they'll leave again or we kick them. We got GMs for that.
On the other hand. If we don't try to make this game playable, motivating and enjoyable for a larger player base, I'll don't get more players. We stick with those we have. The player count will decline and in the end noone is left. That doesn't sound nice. :D

So yes in general the main target has to be to attracted and keep new players. Because without players, there is no roleplay. It can't ever be the sole target that the few players we got are happy. Sure thats important too, but if new players don't find their way into the game... it won't last for long.

So what ever you think about Illarion, the vision, the developments: It all comes down to one thing: Keep old and new players in the game to give them a chance to meet and interact.

Nitram
User avatar
forty
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:37 pm
Location: Sleeping in a cart by Galmair Palace.

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by forty »

How about a "rabble rouser" High Score. Record amount of lasting conversations that occured with your character while consuming alcohol. I'd rock that one.
Or "hospitality" high score. How many guests have logged out in your house to sleep.
Or "socialite" high score that counts how many characters gave you a #i.

Some social high scores?
Alessaina
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 5:22 am
Location: Kansas City, Missouri

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by Alessaina »

forty wrote:How about a "rabble rouser" High Score. Record amount of lasting conversations that occured with your character while consuming alcohol. I'd rock that one.
Or "hospitality" high score. How many guests have logged out in your house to sleep.
Or "socialite" high score that counts how many characters gave you a #i.

Some social high scores?
Agreed ^
User avatar
forty
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:37 pm
Location: Sleeping in a cart by Galmair Palace.

Re: Poll: High Score // Umfrage: Bestenlisten

Post by forty »

THAT was fast. Okay. My ice towards high scores is starting to melt.
Post Reply