High Scores / Bestenlisten

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Post by Vilarion » Sat May 25, 2013 1:53 am

High Scores / Bestenlisten

Dear Illarionites,

it is now possible to get an overview of exceptional characters in certain categories. For this purpose we added high scores. You can find them in the general section of our website. More categories will follow in the future.

Have fun and enjoy playing!
Vilarion

--------------------------

Liebe Illarioniten,

es ist nun möglich sich einen Überblick über herausragende Charaktere in einzelnen Kategorien zu verschaffen. Dazu wurden die Bestenlisten erstellt. Ihr könnt diese in der allgemeinen Sektion der Homepage finden. Weitere Kategorien werden in Zukunft folgen.

Viel Spaß und fröhliches Spielen wünscht

Vilarion

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Post by Damien » Sat May 25, 2013 10:26 am

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Ich halte eine solche Bestenliste für sehr unbedacht, was das Gold angeht.
Arena-bestenlisten sind okay, hat keiner was gegen.
Aber das mit dem Gold zeigt ja nicht wie die Spieler dazu gekommen sind, mit wem sie wie gehandelt haben undsoweiter. Und auch nicht wie lange und wie oft sie spielen. Da heisst es ganz schnell wieder "GM-Favouritism" und Ähnliches. Sowas verursacht keine Kameradschaft im Spiel, sondern Neid und Missgunst unter allen weniger reifen Spielern.
Halte ich für sehr schädlich für die Community, die im Moment eh ziemlich klein ist.

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Post by Tyan Masines » Sat May 25, 2013 10:31 am

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Zugegeben, die Gold Bestenliste macht mir auch Probleme. Ich finde, es ist auch ein ungerechtfertigter Einblick in mein Depot - klar 'mixt' hier natürlich keiner ooc und ic, aber jetzt kann ich trotzdem nicht mehr so tun, als wäre ich arm. ;) Nur ein Beispiel.

Stimme also Damien zu. Weiteres wichtiges Argument: Bestenliste fällt direkt ins Auge. Und an oberster Stelle steht Gold. Das impliziert, dass es in Illarion darum geht, am meisten Gold zu haben. Das ist nicht der Sinn des Spiels. (Zumindest nicht für die Mehrheit. ^^)


Bestenlisten an sich sind nett, aber andere Kategorien wären schön. Arena ist so eine, zum Beispiel, oder Anzahl gehobener Schätze/Menge des 'gespendeten' Geldes/Steuern, solche eher abstrakteren Dinge. Ist technisch natürlich schwerer umzusetzen, da ist Gold einfacher.

edit: Anzahl der Emotes wäre cool, wenn sowas überhaupt geht. Eben Sachen, die darauf abzielen, was im Spiel 'gewünscht' ist. Damit alte Spieler nicht bevorteiligt werdern, kann man die Liste ja jeden RL Monat zurücksetzen.

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Post by Jupiter » Sat May 25, 2013 11:19 am

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Es sollte möglich sein, sich aus der Liste rauszunehmen. Etwa über eine Einstellung im Account. Dann steht dort halt beim Namen ???.

Wenn ich einen reichen Char hätte, der sich aber als armer Bettler ausgibt, würde ich nicht wollen, dass die Spieler sehen können, dass er in wirklichkeit reich ist. OOC-IG-Mixing ist verboten, aber in gewisserweise fordert diese Liste sowas heraus.

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Post by Tyan Masines » Sat May 25, 2013 11:53 am

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Direktes Mischen ist verboten - Indirektes Mischen kann man nie ganz verhindern. Wir haben alle nur ein Gehirn und das verarbeitet Eindrücke des Charakters, wie des Spielers gleichermaßen. ;)

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Post by GolfLima » Sat May 25, 2013 2:00 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Das mit der "Reichtumsliste (Münzen)" sehe ich als schwierig an,

da ich öfter Dinge kaufe bzw. verkaufe / mit dem Teleporter reise,
heißt der Geldbetrag den ich als Münzen habe ändert sich laufend.

Solange es aber keine Vermischung ooc / ig gibt ist es nicht so tragisch

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Post by Fooser » Sat May 25, 2013 2:08 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Kind of looks like Cadomyr is awesome

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Post by rakust dorenstkzul » Sat May 25, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

The city of gold is the poorest city

How embarrasing

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Post by S'rrt » Sat May 25, 2013 3:01 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

I'm not sure I appreciate a character's amount of wealth being publicly visible, no matter how OOC. Arena scores I have no problem with.

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Post by Salathe » Sat May 25, 2013 3:43 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Yea when it comes to gold, I'm not so sure about listing players names and exact amounts of gold. Perhaps only listing the faction? Or at most only listing character names without amounts. As others have said, it sort of gives the wrong impression of the game. The arena list will be fun to have when that feature is refined and available for all faction though!

Some ideas for the list
-Taxes donated
-Treasure dug
-Items crafted
-Dragons slain
-Drow Slain
-Quests completed

Though, im not sure how easy any of those are. But very cool feature, I'm interested to see where this goes in the future =)
rakust dorenstkzul wrote:The city of gold is the poorest city
Well, unfortunately the Don has done everything in his power to hinder trade and galmair's growth of wealth.

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Post by Semtex » Sat May 25, 2013 4:52 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

rakust dorenstkzul wrote:The city of gold is the poorest city

How embarrasing
Actually laughed out loud.

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Post by Fooser » Sat May 25, 2013 5:05 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

High scores are cool, even the gold one. It isnt really their job to shield us from everything that might be used to metagame in any way. It should also be noted gold =/= wealth.

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Post by Banduk » Sat May 25, 2013 5:30 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

:evil:
Danke für die meiner Meinung nach unausgegorene Liste des Goldes der Chars.

Wir werden zumindest eins erreichen:
1. Aus Galmair werden noch mehr PO verschwinden, denen es auch um IG Geld geht.
2. Galmair wird noch mehr ein in sich abgeschlossenes RP Gebiet.
3. Ich überleg mir, ob ich Banduk weiter spiele.
Alles ganz klar gewollt

PO Banduk

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Post by GolfLima » Sat May 25, 2013 6:02 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

:arrow: Schade, ich werde Banduk vermissen - aber ich kann es verstehen

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Post by Jupiter » Sat May 25, 2013 6:21 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Banduk wrote:Alles ganz klar gewollt
Nein. Mag sein, dass dir das nicht gefällt, aber deswegen zu unterstellen, dass die Idee war, dich dazu zubewegen mit Banduk nicht mehr zu spielen, ist bißchen überzogen, nicht? ;)

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Post by Anne Roy » Sat May 25, 2013 7:11 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Frankly, introducing High Scores to Illarion is a dreadful idea.

This is a roleplaying game. It is a collaborative storytelling experience, and that is what sets it apart from the other games that there are so many of. Illarion has been about telling a story for a long time, and it is why I was drawn to it. It is why I stayed, unlike many other RPGs I tried and left. Illarion is (or used to be) about characters and their stories, their lives, their actions. We had colors for skills for that very reason, to focus on the characters. Not their skills, their attributes, their possessions.

With the VBU... quests, ranks, numerical skills, and now high scores, I feel like Illarion is losing that. The purpose of the game is no longer to tell a story, but to have the 'best' character, the 'richest' character, the most 'powerful' character. It has become competitive, something Illarion has never been meant to be. There is no 'winning' or 'losing' Illarion, and there should not be "high scores".

I am not saying there cannot be In-Character clamor for wealth and power. Look at the various gold rushes of history, IC competition is a realistic part of the life experience. It is when someone cannot distinguish IC competitiveness from OOC that there is a serious issue. I do not care if my character is the most rich, or powerful. She wishes she were more of both, but from an OOC standpoint it does not matter to me. Wealth is only a plot tool, not a goal to be achieved.

Adding a page, calling it 'High Scores', and filling it with the amount of gold in people's depots. This places the players whose characters have achieved the most gold on a pedestal, saying they are somehow better than characters with less gold, and that is a ridiculous notion. I am against rating characters in any way from 'best' to 'worst', and the removal of profile ratings was a good step in the right direction. Characters are characters, fictional imitations of people, and ranking people from best to worst is never a good idea.

Illarion is about roleplay, not about winning. I hope people aren't forgetting that.

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Post by Damien » Sat May 25, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

+1
Very well said.

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Post by Miriam » Sat May 25, 2013 7:52 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

This is a roleplaying game.

Illarion has been about telling a story for a long time
, and it is why I was drawn to it. It is why I stayed, unlike many other RPGs I tried and left. Illarion is (or used to be) about characters and their stories. Not their skills, their attributes, their possessions.

With the VBU... , I feel like Illarion is losing that. It has become competitive, something Illarion has never been meant to be.

I am against rating characters in any way.
Illarion is about roleplay, not about winning. I hope people aren't forgetting that.
(( I took the sentences I like the most and coloured them. Source: Anne Roy's post above ))

I completey agree.
Anne has explained very nicely what Illa always meant for me, but what I couldn't express in the right way. Thanks a lot, Anne Roy! :)
For me it was about roleplaying as character the way I liked, not about competition, not about fitting into factions (or not) or collecting digial wealth or rank points.

The positive thing about thoses hightscores is that they really look (graphically) nice. :D
I heard the hightscore is meant to attract new players and create goals for playing, but maybe focusing on presenting in-game goals and in-game rewards would be more helpfull. :? ( Aswell as a descripton of the towns on the homepage, maybe?)

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Post by Fooser » Sat May 25, 2013 7:59 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Putting in "scores" doesn't hinder anything described above. People keep implying that these practical changes are going to turn Illarion into a game full of PKers and 5 year olds .. the same was said when the account system was removed and when skills were represented by numbers instead of colors. But the problem is .. that's never materialized. And it won't after this either.

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Post by Damien » Sat May 25, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Things like:
- who has mined the most gold nuggets
- who is ranked highest in arenas
and other stuff like that, are of course unproblematic.

But "who carries the most gold" well, that's pure competitional nonsense. Some of the chars on the list have guild treasury stored, for example. No single player can beat a score gathered by a group. It will get people pissed if it has not already.

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Post by Miriam » Sat May 25, 2013 8:34 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

@ Fooser

Hey Fooser :),
Maybe we missunderstood eachother.
I did not mean to say the game is turning out full of PKers or 5 year olds. I never intend to give any hint in that direction.
I just meant to say that there *is* more cometition than on the old day on gobaith.

Me personally, I do not play for comepetion. That's my problem. And I don't like it at all, because in this kind of competition as presented on the highscorelist I'll always be a looser.
I understand that some players like competion, or others are not botherd by it at all.
But for me knowing I'll always be no low level of the hightscores, is an odd feeling, like I'm doing something wrong by doing what I like to do.

All of this has to do with my attitude toward roleplaying and how the game mecanisms changed, but not with new player coming to illarion or not.

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Post by GolfLima » Sat May 25, 2013 8:38 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

sogenannte "Bestenlisten" finde ich nicht allgemein schlecht.

wie Damien geschrieben hat wären Bestenlisten zu
* wer ist der beste Kämpfer in der Arena
* wer hat am meisten von xy "gesammelt"
* wer ist der beste Handwerker ("Olympiaden" o.ä.)
schon interessant und wahrscheinlich recht unproblematisch (bis auf die Umsetzung vielleicht)

-> eine "Liste der Reichen" halte ich auch eher für kontraproduktiv

vielleicht sollten wir gemeinsam überlegen was für solche "Bestenlisten" in Betracht kommt, und was davon umsetzbar ist

:arrow: mir ist das RP immer noch wichtiger als wieviel Münzen mein Char. gerade hat

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Post by Rincewind » Sat May 25, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

I have no idea why cadomyrians or runewickers should care about highscores in coins. I would rather like to see a wealth high score in Galmair-IG.

I like the arenamaster. You should challenge people with more arenapoints than you and ask a gm to reward the winner of the duel.

Did anyone saw such rocks with red paint on it yet?

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Post by Lillian » Sat May 25, 2013 8:46 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Rincewind wrote:Did anyone saw such rocks with red paint on it yet?
No one, since it hasn't been released yet. Vilarion spoiled a little when he added the high score for it :D

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Post by Fooser » Sat May 25, 2013 9:09 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Miriam wrote:@ Fooser

Hey Fooser :),
Maybe we missunderstood eachother.
I did not mean to say the game is turning out full of PKers or 5 year olds. I never intend to give any hint in that direction.
I just meant to say that there *is* more cometition than on the old day on gobaith.

Me personally, I do not play for comepetion. That's my problem. And I don't like it at all, because in this kind of competition as presented on the highscorelist I'll always be a looser.
I understand that some players like competion, or others are not botherd by it at all.
But for me knowing I'll always be no low level of the hightscores, is an odd feeling, like I'm doing something wrong by doing what I like to do.

All of this has to do with my attitude toward roleplaying and how the game mecanisms changed, but not with new player coming to illarion or not.
It's only a bother if you let it bother you. I assume most people, like you, won't care much about being highest on the list. But if it motivates anyone to stay IG longer, especially in slow time zones, what harm is that?

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Post by Salathe » Sat May 25, 2013 9:12 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Fooser does bring up a point. While I don't necessarily support the gold high score, it is a cool feature that wont really hurt the game in a significant way.

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Post by Banduk » Sat May 25, 2013 9:31 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Rechtsfrage
Highscores betrachte ich als persönliche Daten. Da diese einfach einer realen Person zugeordnet werden können, muss die Person gemäß geltenden Recht explizit einer Veröffentlichung zustimmen.

Ich habe keine Zustimmung gegeben.

Ich erwarte, dass innerhalb von drei (3) Tagen alle meine Chars aus den Listen verschwinden.

PO Banduk

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Post by Nitram » Sat May 25, 2013 9:37 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Mach dich nicht lächerlich Banduk. Die Daten sind den Charakteren zugeordnet. Die Zuordnung zu dir als Person ist, so sie von dir Persönlich nicht veröffentlicht wurde, nicht bekannt.

Die Charaktere sind Eigentum des Illarion e.V. und wir dürfen damit machen was wir wollen. Wenn wir Statistiken zu unseren Charakteren veröffentlichen wollen, dann dürfen wir das auch.

Nitram

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Post by GolfLima » Sat May 25, 2013 9:39 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

@ PO Banduk

ist das nicht ein wenig über das Ziel hinausgeschossen?

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Post by Tyan Masines » Sat May 25, 2013 10:03 pm

Re: High Scores / Bestenlisten

Können wir das bitte nicht in eine pseudojuristische Diskussion ausarten lassen? Ich denke, es wurden genügend 'echte' Argumente vorgebracht, für und gegen die ganze Sache. ^^

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