The State of Illarion from a crotchety old player. Again.

[Fooser]

There are no people coming because WE do not want them to. They don't come because we don't promote Illarion in any way right now. We'll start doing so once the game is in a playable state. We'll talk about this topic again then.

So are you saying that this game has been in an unplayable state for the past 13 years, Nitram?

They promoted Illarion a decent amount prior to the VBU, so apparently someone thought it was playable enough to promote. He's obviously talking about post-VBU.

All of this is not about THE players again THE devs.
In my own opinion, if Illarion shall improve we all should be working together, and very importantly we should not forget that there are persons (humans) sitting behind a PC-screen.

This. A million times this. Thank you for your post.

You end your 20 paragraphs of trying to bludgeon the devs by seconding that?

I haven't the slightest idea what your grievance with the forums is. The forum isn't overmoderated or undermoderated, it's fine how it is. The game isn't full of 15 year old boys anymore, there simply isn't a need to moderate that much.

The map: When you know where you're going it's pretty remarkable how quickly you can walk to certain places. You also have to remember that there are now two speeds (walk + run) when there was only one (walk) before. The problem isn't that the map is too big, it's that you can't do much roleplay in any of it because there is a full blanket of mobs on every inch of it.

[Dovakin Ken Kapsalot]

I was just going to babysit this a while, but I want to say;

Aegohl just said most of the things I find wrong about the dysfunctional community in his colourful post. I don't always agree with him, but when I do its because he steps up and....does that.

[Aegohl]

My first post was edited, which goes to show that even I'm not free of moderation. =D I'll leave that as it may be.

This will be my last word and then I'll go off back from whence I came:

The reality of my opinion on what is a proper moderation strategy will not find popular support but it comes from being a GM or moderator at many places over the years, whether it was running tabletop games since I was a pre-teen, GMing here or being part of the various player-helper groups I was in prior to being a GM here and later leading the GM staff along with Arien, being on the staff of multiple UO shards, and running guilds at various MMO's. This also is inspired by the advice of other people who run communities. So it isn't coming from nowhere.

The reality of the matter is that the only way to have a happy, healthy, helpful community is to regularly pluck the bad apples before they spoil the bunch.

At Illarion we've (and I say "we" not because I'm involved with Illarion on any level anymore, but because I was as much guilty of it in my time multiple times) made the mistake of being chummy with our players. And it's okay to be friendly and cordial, but it's not okay to ever back down from doing your job because you feel sorry for a player. And it's, frankly, even worse when another GM reverses the ban that a former GM puts on a player because it (wrongly) gives the impression that the first GM was wrong in his decision and rarely if ever does the player change. My ban of Konstantin was reversed by other GM's several times over and he was rebanned time and time again. My ban of Thalados (for stealing GM tools) was undone only for him to then hack a GM's account. And clearly Rakust hasn't finished being disruptive.

In rare cases I've given out temp bans to players that I believed were acting on bad judgement or temporary anger or any number of things (the original poster included. and honestly, it wasn't with any sort of joy that I even temp banned a player who has been around Illarion longer than I have), but that's different. It's the one benefit we have of how "chummy" GM's are with players here, that we could and they can make those calls about who's causing trouble because they're jerks and who's just having a bad day.

I've never ever banned someone for speaking their mind no matter how vehemently I've disagreed with them or even how much they unfairly criticize the staff, the game, or myself. Do you expect you'd get that same treatment at the forums for WoW or GW2? Try them.

Attached below is a heavily edited, forum-appropriate version of what I said to answer Rakust's question:

<insult redacted>. You got banned because of your constant forum trolling and then when you were asked to remove an avatar because it, in fact, belonged to me, you went <profanity> and caused more trouble. Even then because I was told you weren't trouble ingame I asked that you were only banned on the forums. I regret that decision and I regret that you <redacted>.

You know what's hilarious? One of your friends then heard your side of the story (the side that doesn't include the fact that you were warned multiple times, had a record and multiple dots, and repeatedly acting out when warned <redacted>) and IMed me a laundry list of complaints and when I explained the reality went "oh yeah, well, he is a forum troll and gets out of hand" and apologized to me. <profanity>

The fact that you're still whining about this long after I've gone... amazing. <insult redacted>

[Flux]

I think that an old staff attitude of "The staff are infallible, what we said goes, we can make no mistake and everything we've done is right and perfect" was actually revolting.

It's not hard for a bunch of people with all the power to sit and refuse to admit they're wrong, and make mental gymnastics to justify their actions when things aren't what they seem. I think the measured responses from the staff nowadays are infinitely better than what it used to be like. All I have to do is look at my own player threads on the internal boards to see how many false assumptions the staff made against me as a player to know that the mentality was just wrong back then.

Konstantine's ban was NEVER reversed, we just don't assume guilty until proven innocent! We didn't have proof that his sockpuppets were him, so we didn't ban him. We aren't going to ban every person just because someone suspects they're Konrad (Which, by the way, I have seen some ridiculous allogations before. People like to immediately assume the worst of the POs of chars who do things that disturb their own chars).

And banning someone for speaking their mind and criticising the staff is just weak. We are above that. If someone posts stuff about me, I couldn't give less of a shit; it's part of the job description. If someone has a genuine complaint then I'm of the firm belief that censorship is the worst possible action. It happened in the past and it made the staff look both controlling, and ultimately /wrong/. If you delete a thread or lock it without even saying a word, I read that as a kid having their hands on their ears shouting, "SHUT UP, SHUT UP, SHUT UP" at the truth. If something needs discussing and a player has a good reason, it SHOULD be discussed, not have someone clamp it because we don't like what they say.

If a staff member has a viewpoint on how illa should work, he should be able to reason his point. There is no reason you would have to lock something, since as a GM you are in possession of far more knowledge than the player a lot of the time. You can simply tell them your thoroughly reasoned argument as to why they are probably wrong, because you've actually made all those considerations for a long time longer than it took them to throw together a post in General.

As for Rakust, he posts joke posts. I think anyone who bans someone for a bit of light humour is just.. entirely controlling. Rakust has never done anything malicious on this forum as far as I've seen, and he's a good player ingame, and I think it's unfair of you to single him out like he's some bad egg.

Since I became a GM, the way I have always played my part on internal threads is by giving solely logical, reasoned responses, not clouded by emotions, not afraid to admit that a mistake has been made, and the boards have been nothing comparable to the absolutely ridiculous antics that occured in 2006-2007. I can't remember a time in the past 4 years that we've had one of these threads where someone is perma banned for apparently no reason and half the community vehemently argues with the staff. The staff have got a fair outlook on this game now.

[Aegohl]

I called Rakust out? I only came here because I heard Rakust was talking about me behind my back.

And I specifically said that I've never banned anyone for their opinion. Your reading retention is questionable. Frankly, I don't even know who you are. Obviously you have an opinion about how I did things. I don't have any examples to draw an opinion about you, so I'm a bit at a loss.

Also, bear in mind I wasn't on the staff when Rakust was banned to my memory. I still had access to the staff forums on some level, if I recall. You might feel comfortable calling me out for banning Rakust because I'm not on the staff, but Estralis did so based on my complaint.

As for Rakust, he posts joke posts. I think anyone who bans someone for a bit of light humour is just.. entirely controlling. Rakust has never done anything malicious on this forum as far as I've seen, and he's a good player ingame, and I think it's unfair of you to single him out like he's some bad egg.

Quoted from one of Rakust's friends from an IM to me after he was banned:

I am deeply sorry how long this reply took to be written, but I have just now realized the importance and necessity that the banning of Rakust was to this community. I understand that he was, for lack of a better word, a troll, but he was and is a very good friend.

[Flux]

I made that response to your post, not how I feel you GMed. I liked your GM reign. I am speaking directly to the contents of your post, not what I think of you as a person.

That comment about WoW and GW2 moderators? This isn't GW2. We don't have a billion players. Perhaps it's semantics, but by saying "Try them", it really seems like you're saying their way is better. The kind where a player doesn't get a chance. The kind where you try to remove evidence of people disagreeing with you instead of giving them a reasoned response. A kind of moderation that is based on emotion and not reason for a small community like this. I can't stand behind that view.

As for Rakust, I just looked it up, and his forum ban got redacted because of his contribution to ingame content, as an apology. In the times I've been on the forum, I've only ever seen mild jokey pokes at people, I've never seen something like what you e.g. just posted that got removed by CMs (A direct personal flame).

[Aegohl]

I made that response to your post, not how I feel you GMed. I liked your GM reign. I am speaking directly to the contents of your post, not what I think of you as a person.

Thank you, first of all, for explaining that before I continue.

That comment about WoW and GW2 moderators? This isn't GW2. We don't have a billion players. Perhaps it's semantics, but by saying "Try them", it really seems like you're saying their way is better. The kind where a player doesn't get a chance. The kind where you try to remove evidence of people disagreeing with you instead of giving them a reasoned response. A kind of moderation that is based on emotion and not reason for a small community like this. I can't stand behind that view.

I'm not suggesting that they're better. I'm suggesting that they're acting in the interest of professionalism. I don't think Illarion is or should be a professional outfit, but that a lack of professionalism is a double-edged sword. Things are more laid back here, sure, but also sometimes the GMs' good intentions are taken advantage of.

As for Rakust, I just looked it up, and his forum ban got redacted because of his contribution to ingame content, as an apology. In the times I've been on the forum, I've only ever seen mild jokey pokes at people, I've never seen something like what you e.g. just posted that got removed by CMs (A direct personal flame).

Granted.

I think I recall what you mean by the 2006-2007 era and I was rather vocal against how the staff acted at that time as well. However, that is not what I'm suggesting. To clarify, these are the three points I feel are necessary for making a good community:

1. Leniency on good community members, even when they have a bad day.
2. Clarity of purpose and rules.
3. No leniency on those who break the rules because they feel they don't apply to them.

Generally speaking I prefer not making mistakes to admitting to mistakes later, but it's arguable on whether that's possible.

The problem in the 2006-2007 era wasn't that they tried to punish too hard. They had players who didn't break rules but broke the spirit of the rules and so they didn't want to ban them so they came up with creative punishments other than banning. This is the opposite of what I believe a staff must do. I don't know if my "GM Constitution" is still used or in it's original form or even still in the GM forum, but a lot of the mistakes of that time were inspirations of what I wrote there. If you find it and it's unedited you'll see it's so.

For the record, I have no complaints about the current staff. I'm too detached from Illarion to have formed an opinion. But I can honestly say I agree with the CM's decision to moderate me earlier and I can agree with most of your points.

Hell, maybe Rakust has grown up some. I wouldn't know better.

[Flux]

I really did like yours and Mesha's era. As I said, when I said "no threads like that in 4 years", I did mean 4, since the start of your most recent team's reign. Your stance on the "creative punishment" was one of the best thing that ever happened in illa, and I really respected the decision from you, and from Mesha too. I really don't want to come across as not liking your style of moderation, because it really did pave the way for a better place. The forums are chilled now, people are friendly, and the ingame atmosphere is nice.

And I do, personally, believe that Rakust has changed, even if he did have that little stab at you there. I think if Rakust is the worst we have to show for our community then it must be a pretty damned awesome community.

As for the not making mistakes: indeed - I totally agree. That's why I stressed the importance of innocent until proven guilty. Which is why we can't just ban every player that someone thinks is Konrad.

[rakust dorenstkzul]

At least i got a response. Keep acting holier-than, Aegohl.

[Flux]

Rakust, Jesus, you're really not helping yourself here.

[rakust dorenstkzul]

Yeah, alright. That wasn't the most tactful response, but i just woke up. So all the cylinders weren't firing.

I apologise to Aegohl for it. In these situations. It's important to be polite, civil and most of all, patient.

[Aegohl]

Honestly, I've been gone a long time and maybe things have changed in my absence and it's very possible that back then you didn't see things the way I saw them. I appreciate your apology, and I was being honest that the first thing I did when you entered my radar then is ask Estralis and other staffers if you were a good player and they all said that ingame you weren't any trouble at all and you were a good rper and I said that I felt you crossed a line but I didn't want you banned from the game.

I've always admitted to being a hothead but because I know that about me I didn't make my staff decisions alone, ever. I do believe to some degree that players have a responsibility of being nice to their staffers and I certainly wouldn't allow insults to the GM's who worked with me or on my team. Healthy criticism was always welcome. While there were things I enjoyed about GMing, most of it was unappreciated or unnoticed work and I can get angry when called into question about it because I feel that I did a good job.

In the end, I honestly felt you were out of control back then and I wasn't alone in that sentiment and attempts to reel you in were met with less-than-stellar replies. I trust what Flux says that that isn't the case since and I appreciate that you put work into Illarion to earn your way back. Anyone who has put work into Illarion is likely to realize that the work is either fantastically fun (because the vast majority of players are really great people and genuinely thankful), just plain unfun (because no one notices your work), or absolutely disastrous to your social and physical well-being (because you bump into the small segment of the community that is unappreciative or have to do the unfun part of the job and ban someone).

[Salathe]

I apologise to Aegohl for it

I appreciate your apology

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQj7q5Z8_mM

[Dovakin Ken Kapsalot]

Honestly, I've been gone a long time and maybe things have changed in my absence and it's very possible that back then you didn't see things the way I saw them.

This is something I realized myself pretty recently, and I'm really pretty ashamed of my own actions when some of the GM's seemed to go off the the deep end at points. That didn't condone some of the overmoderation problems, but it did compound them, and that's not cool, sorry.

I've always admitted to being a hothead but because I know that about me I didn't make my staff decisions alone, ever. I do believe to some degree that players have a responsibility of being nice to their staffers and I certainly wouldn't allow insults to the GM's who worked with me or on my team. Healthy criticism was always welcome. While there were things I enjoyed about GMing, most of it was unappreciated or unnoticed work and I can get angry when called into question about it because I feel that I did a good job.

I miss when we was friends ;.;

[Achae Eanstray]

My opinion? You are all great.. especially those that get ig to play *stares at Mitch*

[Tyan Masines]

Yeah Mitch, although you probably don't remember (and can't look up because the thread is gone *grml*), you once said. 'Sad, but since we leave around the same time, maybe we'll return around the same time.' Well, I'm back.

[Flux]

My earliest memory of Mitch was a leaving thread entitled:

"And you all thought I was going to get belligerent"

[Dovakin Ken Kapsalot]

If Mitch came back it'd personally help my decision whether or not to stay with a nice big swing towards 'stay'.

But he probably won't come back

And then I'll be even sadder

[Athian]

This train seems to have derailed some time ago...Nothing constructive occurring in here as far as i can see. You're all welcome to continue the small talk in the Off-topic forum but do keep the hostilities down to a simmer.

Shut down
Ath