Reference to a post in the support forum...

[Achae Eanstray]

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... =3&t=37732

You are locked up in a mine.. unable to even leave for "fresh air", no RP can't get your own food....and have to work picking ore until you are released. I assume if refuse to dig for ore you don't get released. Is this a char/player choice.. are other choices offered as an example a char which would prefer not to mine etc.? If not I have a couple more questions...

Question: How is this NOT punishing the player versus punishing the char.

Second question: How is this any different then the old jail cell at Trolls Bane that Vilarion finally tore a hole in so no one could be locked up in it anymore?

[Flux]

The new punishment system is being used because old punishments don't work. Locking someone up in a prison requires someone to keep track of all prisoners and let them out, and people forget to release people, especially when prisons were in player hands. A task based punishment which benefits the town is nothing comparable. This is them having to fulfil a task and then they are released. It is equivalent to giving a kid lines at school.

And what is an "ic punishment" that also doesn't punish the player? Lashings?

And finally, giving a punishment which the player also doesn't want to do is a good deterrant for things that aren't strictly against the rules (bad rp and power play). Like.. if players are insolent to a GM because of pure bad roleplay (The "lol what're you gonna do?" type players who laugh at demons and dragons in quests), they have to go mine, and they'll think about being such an uncooperative player in the future. Works a lot for players who are "power players" who have maxed skills and have no reprocussions for any of their actions - such chars can't walk around like that they have nothing to fear, because there's actually a reprocussion that applies to them for once.

It's an ideal solution that is ig rooted and isn't too much of a hassle for their players, unlike prisons, but will even make unfair and uncooperative players think again. If they want to play a char who is a rebel because it is "in the roleplay of the char" then they could quite easily make that char an outlaw, and then they wouldn't have to worry about being put in a mining camp.

On top of this, this system is brand new and it hasn't even had chance to flourish yet. You're naysaying something that hasn't even had a proper trial yet (and also has received no complaints from players!).

[Achae Eanstray]

Thank you Flux for this honest answer. On a positive side, it may deter the "repeat" criminals in game that disrupt the RP for everyone. Since this seems a mix of ig and ooc is there recourse if a player feels the punishment is in the wrong?

Edited to add:

You're naysaying something that hasn't even had a proper trial yet (and also has received no complaints from players!).

SOME players are hesitant to complain to GM's and dev's about any aspect of the VBU..that doesn't mean they haven't complained.

[Flux]

In Illarion, anything that happens to your char that involves the engine will have an impact on the player.

If your character's armour breaks, you could argue that this is a malus to the player, because he now has to spend x hours earning money from his own time to buy a new armour. Practically everything bad that happens to a character through the engine is shared by the player in terms of the time he must invest into the game.

In every element in Illarion, you will have to endure what your character has to endure, since you are always there controlling their actions. Illarion isn't a graphical chatroom, it's a game with an engine, and that has great benefits (like it being a proper playable game), but it comes with things that the player won't enjoy too, but that is part of cooperative gameplay.

Again, if a player feels their char "must" be a rebel due to their character concept, they can easily be an outlaw. And in Galmair the rules are more relaxed as to breaking crimes, for instance. Otherwise, if you are e.g. playing in Cadomyr, town of honour, and you break its laws and go against its code of honour, you knew you may have to be in a labour camp as soon as you put this "rebel" char into Cadomyr, like someone who roleplays a fighter knows his armour might break if he goes fighting in a dungeon. It's not hard to play a lawful char.

SOME players are hesitant to complain to GM's and dev's about any aspect of the VBU..that doesn't mean they haven't complained.

If a player is complaining amongst other players, and that never gets to staff ears, then they can never expect the problem to be addressed! And as a CM, if you personally have heard players complaining about aspects of the game, you should be bringing those to our attention in e.g. the IRC where we, as staff, can have a discussion on how to address the problem. However, in this case I assume it was just your own thoughts you wanted to share?

[Ufedhin]

Labour camps truely inspired, i love it! .Warms my heart to think of the those criminals labouring at the rock infront of them .

[Achae Eanstray]

Labour camps truely inspired, i love it! .Warms my heart to think of the those criminals labouring at the rock infront of them .

Thanks for your opinion and am glad some approve then.

[forty]

While I support criminal characters if they are good at their crime and don't get caught, I wholeheartedly support the labour camp system for criminals who do get caught, because this way it's fun to play a criminal. There is a risk involved of some imprisonment, which makes life of an outlaw a true gamble.
And from a Galmairian perspective, I love to see those filthy scumbags be put to work! Just hope I won't end up being one!

I definitely see Flux's point. I have a fighter character who is almost at the peak of his skills. It was not my first attempt, and I had to do a few rerolls and even attribute changes to get it right, but now i have a fighter I am happy with. On this character I can traverse pretty much the entire map with hardly anything phasing this guy. Having a live consequence is a good thing. Death already does not punish a character enough.

As far as player punishment vs character punishment, I really don't see the need for distinction. It's a distinction without a difference. Players ultimately and fully are responsible for their characters' actions. Characters do not have the mind of their own, no matter how romanticized and dramatically cool it may sound. Yes, sometimes it's easy to get lost in that flow, I sure know this for myself. But in the end, I have to admit. I control my character, and his decisions are mine, I write his story. So when we are punished, we are punished together.

I think that's fair.

[Dovakin Ken Kapsalot]

A true gamble would be permadeath.

'jus sayin.

[Jeisa]

I believe the mining punishment is not a player punishment at all. A player’s character is punished for that character’s actions. The player played that character’s actions out in game, but what happened in game is not something the player is punished for out of the game at all. The player’s character faces an unappealing set of circumstances as a punishment to give the character a reason to think twice about committing whatever he or she did to land himself or herself in there to begin with. Players can get up and go outside. Players can go talk to anyone they wish. Players do not go hungry. All the players have to do is roleplay the consequences of actions they chose to make their characters do, knowing full well the potential punishment for such actions. Even then, players do not have to necessarily sit there and have their characters mine. I’m sure you could roleplay your character trying to break out or stand up against the guard – albeit, then your character would face further punishment.

If you roleplay a criminal, you CAN commit a crime and get away with it – if you do it right. Being punished for committing a crime in game is not inevitable. If your character ends up being punished for a crime, however, it’s not because you, as a player, were not competent enough to roleplay a crime in such a way that your character could get away with it. If your character ends up being punished for a crime, it’s because your character wasn’t competent enough to commit the crime in such a way that your character could get away with it. You, as the player, allow your character to fail when your character’s personality would see him or her fail. If a player feels that he or she is being unfairly punished when his or her character is the one being punished in game, perhaps the player should rethink their choice of a character so that he or she may better enjoy his or her in game experience.

But then there’s also this little detail: That the character is not provided enough food in the mine to complete his or her task and cannot leave to attain food in order to complete said task is a small issue with the game which clearly needs to be resolved. It’s alright, though. The VBU was a huge undertaking. There are bound to be many little issues that need resolving because they were over-looked before the VBU’s release. I would just ask that players be patient while this issue is fixed in game. If a player’s character is stuck in the mines without enough food to accomplish the task, they can simply inform a GM or something of the sort, and I’m sure they’ll be helped out by a GM who can jump inside the guard and take pity on a starving convict.

[Hew Keenaxe]

I say lock up all them arseholes, make 'em pick at rocks till they rot...Ohh wait that will be me.. And give 'em lots of beer too "nough beer who cares if'n I ..er they ever get out

[forty]

Also a player is still free to play other characters when one is being in jail.

[Retlak]

I'll keep this short.

A system where chars are forced to do actions in punishment is, simply, fantastic. I am glad to see this as a result of a well thought-out jail system.

In previous times, locking up a char in a room where there were no chars to rp with, meant that the char is pretty useless, it wasn't an effective system since, as the above posters have mentioned, guards tend to either forget about the prisoners, or not care about releasing them anytime soon as it doesn't affect their own gameplay.

So as a result we have a system where the player and char have to work a little. The positive side of this is that YOU, as the player, determine when your release will be. At the same time it will make you/your char think twice, but at least you're gameplay isn't terminated for a long while.

I'd like to thank the staff for implementing this. I don't see what the problem is here. The player was only "punished" when they were unable to use their char in previous jail systems, now you have options available.

Matt

[Salathe]

On top of that, 400 ores isn't much. Players have mined thousands of thousands voluntarily =)

[Firefly]

Since this is entirely in response to an issue I dealt with personally in game yesterday, I will respond here. I will not be commenting on whether or not the labor camp is good, since Flux stated perfectly why it was implemented.

I am very much aware that the incident involving the character had some OOC issues, the main being that the player does not speak English, and the Queen treated it as a minor offense through the role play and punishment enacted. I consulted several staff members (devs, admins, and GMs) when devising the punishment so that it was not severe in the least.

The player in question isn't complaining about the penalty, he is only asking for assistance because the character does not have the required tools to complete the task. Since the initial post in the Support forum, the staff have been discussing how to change this for the future. We only went live with the VBU two months ago, and are still working out the kinks.

SOME players are hesitant to complain to GM's and dev's about any aspect of the VBU..that doesn't mean they haven't complained.

I have been, and will continue to be available to players to discuss in game issues (OOC via MSN) if a problem arises whenever I am online. I am not easily offended, have a fairly open mind, and I welcome speaking to any players who have concerns with my actions directly. If someone has an issue pertaining to me, I would very much like to know about it so that it can be dealt with as civilized human beings.