Crafting prices and Economy

[Leon Demelii]

So, I'm having trouble finding fair prices for my crafting. I am looking for any advice on this from GM's or developers if they can shed some light on the subject. Also to help other players who may be having the same problem. The biggest thing is that pricing should be very reasonable and not screw up the economy like it did previously in the old client. The big problem I've found is simply:

Nobody wants to pay for anything ever. Fact.

That alone, can easily mess up the economy because some players will reduce prices so much that others cannot compete and it's completely unreasonable. I've come up with a few things I think should be brought into consideration when pricing items you've made:

1. Amount of coin for all materials
2. Skill level of the character
3. Quality of final product
4. The amount of time put into the craft itself
5. Simply the fact you can create the item when others cannot. (This goes for more difficult and higher level items)

Now I know that the game gives you the items worth when you hover over it...but I'm confused as to what that actually means. When I look at a badly made ruby ring it says 42 silver. When I hover over a perfect ruby ring it still says 42 silver. This leads me to believe that the "worth" is dependent on - The item and what was used to make it. Not the quality at all. It's also hard to go by the merchant's prices because the items you recieve are of average quality. So obviously a player that can make better quality items would have a higher price. That just leaves the question on how much to raise it, without being ridiculously low or high.

Of course some characters would rather trade materials and that seems like the best way to go honestly. Both parties get a better deal that way. However, if someone was to simply bring my character the materials needed, I'd still charge them something for the fact I -can- make the item. Labor shouldn't be free You do have to keep fed, no?

Which brings me to cooking and baking. That must be the toughest craft to calculate. The simple fact that a cook can feed themselves, makes it possible for them to charge the bare minimal and think it's okay because the character is basically breaking even aside from a few tools.

I don't mean to give anyone more work, but I think everyone is a bit lost on how to price crafting out. I don't expect a full list on how much things should be, that would be ridiculous. Perhaps just a bit of an idea of how to go about it. I think if the players are left to it, the game's economy will fall once again. I don't want to be the one to ruin goldsmithing prices and set the bar so others can unreasonably compete just to make a sale. I know others feel the same exact way about their crafts.

[Salathe]

I'm a little drunk so i'm going to address some points you made about worth and wait until tmw to make a real response.

Worth is the amount that NPCs charge for that item.

NPCs "typically" charge 1/10 of item worth to player who sell that item.

For smithing, I have not found that people dont want to pay for anything. It may just be for goldsmithing that people are stingy due to unknown benefits of using these items. Though I've paid grim almost 10-12 gold for his items so far. As a rule of thumb, I typically charge around 2.5/10 of worth for my items. I've been raising this price and people are still buying.

Having NPCs pay players differntly based on quality, or having worth change based on quality, is most likely going to be far too much work to implement.

[Leon Demelii]

I'm a little drunk so i'm going to address some points you made about worth and wait until tmw to make a real response.

Will do. LOL

Note and edit: I might be a bit drunkish too at the moment. Bottoms up!

[Hrothgar]

First of all it depend on the Category and the need of Skill,
For easy Items, Tools in special i want mostly lesser money than the NPCs like 25%(low- Medium quality for noobs), -50% (normal), 100%-150% (Perfect, [when you need THEM you should have enough money]), also it is important of which quality the item is and who wants to buy it.
i will make much better prices to Noobs who just enter the game than to some Master Smith who can make Money in no time.

Armor and Weapons, are some different thing
Here i want for Normal quality slightly lesser than the NPCs but for higher quality even more than them. Especialy for items with Rare Components like Pure elements. People dont need new armor or weapons every 3 hours like tools so they should invest more in them.
You dont have to start with the best of the best in the beginning, its an RPG, so you have to rise step by steps, this means also
start with lower quality Armor, or an easy sword befor you get a magic one.

Also Another Improtant thing is how the buyer Acts, is he nice and Friendly or even a friend of my char he will get much easier a discount than someone who just run at me and Yell that he wants a new Armor without even telling me his name, greets me or something like this. Craftmans are no NPCs you can Roleplay with them, talk, haggle, and sometimes even cheat on them.

You can make money very easy and quick even with harmless and Easy jobs like Fishing, and you just need it for Teleporters, Tribute and Items, so these should cost something. As more Money spread around the world, as higher the prices should go.
Why do you want to spare 20 silver when you have more than 50 Gold and can make 10 more every hour? You have to spend a part of them to the citys anyway?

[Leomar]

There is a simple way to solve this problem. Make your charakter go to the leader of the city and tell him or her about that fact. Ask if you are allowed to form crafting guilds. In case you are allowed to do so set some prices with the crafting guild. Enforce the prices of the crafting guilds later on.

Prices are going to be on a better level and there are going to be organisations for crafters.

[themonk]

Its all about tax evasion!

[wolfsword]

I'd pay with my blood for bowls and plates.

[Leon Demelii]

There is a simple way to solve this problem. Make your charakter go to the leader of the city and tell him or her about that fact. Ask if you are allowed to form crafting guilds. In case you are allowed to do so set some prices with the crafting guild. Enforce the prices of the crafting guilds later on.

Prices are going to be on a better level and there are going to be organisations for crafters.

That really doesn't answer my first post at all, I'm fully aware how to create a guild. . Here is why:

I am lost as to how to figure out prices fairly

I refuse to believe that if we just make up random prices that everything will simply work out. Again, I don't expect a full list or anything. I'm just looking for an idea on how to price out my items. Anyone can just say "Oh I think I'll sell it for this."

If left up to the players, the economy WILL FALL again. I am not the only PO that thinks this. I've talked to many others and they completely agree.

[Fooser]

Pricing?

Look at the range NPC's sell for (a lot) and buy for (not so much) then price it in between, I usually tend to go more towards the lower end, at least for starters, and then inch it up if the commodity is in high demand.

[Achae Eanstray]

Sounds like making a crafter guild now may work? As far as pricing, so far my character hasn't sold anything except to the NPC's.

[Leon Demelii]

If someone can give me a number on how many qualities there are (Example being: Awful, bad, average, good ect.) I can answer my own question and figure it out so the economy isn't ruined.

[Flux]

8.

[Leon Demelii]

Thank you! Equation of pricing is on the way!

[Jupiter]

8.

10. Not 8.
But players won't make items worse than "normal".

[Flux]

8.

10. Not 8.
But players won't make items worse than "normal".

Actually, surely 9, since qualities <0-99 are "incomplete".

I just thought "9-1" for 900, 800 etc. down to 100 but stupidly forgot that they're inclusive, so I should've said 9.

[Jupiter]

Actually, surely 9, since qualities <0-99 are "incomplete".

That's not the case anymore. "horrible" is the new "incomplete"

[Flux]

That's amazing.

[Leon Demelii]

8.

10. Not 8.
But players won't make items worse than "normal".

Thank you.

[forty]

Sigh... nobody in this thread is a business major I guess. Education time.

Economy, real or game one, does not get ruined or depend on any of the reasons listed here. It's not about static sheets of prices, not about crafting guild laws, and definitely not about item quality, since that pretty much does nothing at all.
Economy gets ruined by absense of proper money sinks and overflow of items, which do not decay. There is nothing wrong with putting economy into player hands, it makes it pointless otherwise, might as well cancel currency and switch to barter trade..

Secondly, a bunch of people being rich does not mean the economy is broken. It's broken if people are not trading. So, availability of all crafter's items from hunting by warriors/mages/whatever would shoot economy in the knee.

This brings us to the topic in question. Prices - how do you figure them out?

Economy revolves around a very simple concept we will explore: it is the primary pillar upon which all trade stands.
The buzzwords are: supply and demand.
What is your product worth? Whatever the buyer is willing to pay. It doesn't have anything to do with npc merchants. It's already obvious they are ripping you off. It does however depend on Leon's point 5. Being able to produce a desirable item.
If you are charging so much that a buyer considers going hunting risking their life for the item, or mastering the trade themselves so they dont have to deal with you in the future, then you are charging too much.

That's all there is to it. The price is whatever you agree on. Depends on who is more desperate - the buyer or the seller. Exactly how it works in real life.

[Hew Keenaxe]

Mrs economy major,
It ain't about how much you can get, it is about why i would sell.
On one of my better nights, when I made over ten gold, I also made other deals based solely on RP.
I may have lost or won, but neither mattered, it was RP. Global economics do not play a role here. This is Illarion. We make our own economic RP model.

[forty]

Well, then the entire topic is pointless, aint it?
Sell for whatever gets you the good roleplay, how about that? Hew has the right idea!

[Hew Keenaxe]

Of course I do ! I am Hew!

[Estralis Seborian]

Please keep in mind that Illarion is not an economy simulation. It is a game, actually a roleplaying game. While we added a lot of conceptions to the game to maintain a certain stability and other neat things are on their way, we will never have a real "player market" that stabilises itself by the laws of supply and demand on a global scale.

We are, by the way, a little beyond the conception of money sinks for we are more into value sinks and purchasing power sinks ("Kaufkraftsenken"). Like, if you buy a sword from a NPC, it is a money sink but it is only a value sink if the sword is "worth" less than the money. This is really tricky!

All in all, we show you the NPC price of every item, so you know your limit; no one will buy from you if you charge more than the NPC (unless you really screw them or have good arguments ). If you sell at less than what the NPC pays (5%-10% of the NPC price), well, your bad. Everything in between is up to you and I doubt anyone will buy an unsound wooden club for a lot of money while you might be able to charge a lot more for a perfect fire sword of uber doom.

[GolfLima]

Im Moment scheint es wieder in Richtung Absenkung der Preise zu gehen und die "Ökonomie" wieder dem Ende entgegen zustreben.
--> Und wir schaffen es "erstaunlicherweise" selber diesen Weg entlang zu rennen.

bei dem was ich teilweise an Preisangeboten gesehen habe muß man entweder wieder zum "Alleskönner" werden um überhaupt ein paar Münzen zu verdienen ( dafür hat man dann keine Zeit für RP ) oder man wird zum Kämpfer - & das obwohl die Voraussetzungen für Handwerker / Händler (nicht Kämpfer) nach dem VBU wirklich gut sind / waren - schade das wir uns das selber kaputt machen

[Tyan Masines]

Ist das Spiel von Angebot und Nachfrage, sind wir nicht selber, glaub ich. Ich bin Kämpfer und versuche momentan, ein Handwerk zu lernen, mit allen damit verbundeten Schwierigkeiten (Stats), da mir Looten auf Dauer eben nicht ausreicht... durch die Einführung von vielen puren Elementen dürften einige Missstände langsam 'herauswachsen'.

Wir haben ja momentan auch noch immer einen Markt, der total überladen ist: Viele Spieler haben wertvolle Gegenstände aus Gobaith mitgebracht, mehr als für sich allein, was jene kompensierte, die keine mitgenommen hatten. Ist zumindest meine Erfahrung gewesen. Mit der Zeit (Neue Spieler & Durchwechseln der Chars) wird das 'System' erst richtig zum Vorschein kommen.



Schmieden ist einfach überladen, das war es immer. Und dennoch waren Schmiede immer mit bei den Reichsten. Gibt es da denn wirklich so einen großen Missstand? Für Schneiderwaren sehe ich Leute durchaus die selben Preise, wie die Händler nehmen, oder sogar mehr (Qualität) bezahlen, weil man sie nicht an jeder Ecke bekommt. Noch ein Malus beim Schmieden: Keiner interessiert sich für 85% der Schmiedewaren. Die weren zum Hochlevels gemacht und/oder verkauft. Es gibt vermutlich 40 Waffen und 20 Rüstungen im Spiel, benutzt werden etwa 3 Waffen und 4 Rüstungen. Die "Spieler"-Verkaufpreise für jene unnützen Items spielen also überhaupt keine Rolle, kein Spieler wird dafür etwas hinblättern. Die Händlerpreise dagegen sind fix.



Spontane direkte Eindrücke zu den Preisen: 1.) Schilde scheinen sehr günstig zu sein, im Hochberech könnte man da vllt nachjustieren? 2.) Glasblasen ist ein Witz. Es gibt kaum Spieler, die die Waren brauchen und wenn nur in sehr geringen Margen, das bei niedrigen Preisen. Und die "Vasen" sind in der Herstellung und vom Skill her sehr teuer im Vergleich zu anderen Handwerken.

[Miriam]

(Ich gehe hier einfach davon aus das Nachfrage und Angebot existieren.)
Es wäre eine Hilfe wenn man Spieler zu Spieler Handel einfacher macht:

1) Wir haben ein Handelsforum, aber das wird zur Zeit scheinbar kaum benutzt.

2)NPC sind immer zu erreichen, verkaufen aber je nach Stadt nicht alles.
Beim Spieler zu Spielerhandel ist oft kein Händler/Kunde zu finden. Nicht jeder spielt zu allen Tages/Nachtzeiten, es gibt noch RL , etc. Handwerke sind auf drei Städte verteilt und nicht für alle einfach zu erreichen (außer man hat Geld für den Teleporter.)

-> Markttage und Auktionsevents sind ein wirklich guter Ansatz, weil sich dann Käufer und Verkäufer treffen können!

3)
Eine andere Idee wäre NPCs zum Spieler zu SpielerAustausch zu nutzen, aber ob das technisch umsetzbar ist, weiß ich nicht.
Der NPC würde dem einen Spieler das Geld gegen die Ware geben, und dem anderen Spieler das Geld. Das Ganze vielleicht gegen einen geringen Aufpreis. Allerdings klingt das wie eine schlechte Version des NPC-Handelssystem...

[Hrothgar]

(English Below)

So eins nach dem anderen.

Zu erst man muss kein Jack of all Trades sein, wenn man ein Handwerk gut kann und es auch entsprechend vermarktet. Das heißt Kunden werben, Produkte anpreisen, etc.
Normale Items bekomme ich immer wieder mal verkauft.

Dieer größten Limitierenden Faktorer derzeit sind die Reinen Elemente und die Preise der NPCs.

Dazu nun aber ein einfaches Rechenbeispiel. Die kosten für alle höheren Schreiner Items(ab Wappenschild aufwärts) wurden stark erhöht.
Nehmen wir als Beispiel das Verzierte Turmschild. Dafür braucht ersteinmal ein Meriniumbarren ( für dessen Herstellung man ein Reines Feuer braucht)
sowie rein Reines Wasser. Neben anderen "normalen" Ressourcen.
So als Wert für Reine Elemente nehme ich nun mal einen Wert von 20 Gold, Bedingt an Nachfrage, Seltenheit, und den Umsatz den man in der Selben Zeit machen kann wie man braucht um eines zu finden( und danach müsste der Wert noch viel höher sein)
Sprich für ein verziertes Turmschild muss ich Material im wert von ca 40 Goldstücke aufwenden, und habe dann noch eine hohe Chance das das Item nur normale oder Gute Qualität hat. Sprich um eine vernünftige Chance auf Gute Qualität zu haben müsste ich gleich 4-5 Machen. Gleichzeitig gibt es das Item aber für 1,5 Gold bein NPC zu haben. Wolkenschilder schon ab 2 Gold.

Nun also die Frage für den Kunden, warum soll ich soviel bezahlen wenn der NPC es billiger hat, Frage für den Handwerker, warum soll ich die Items Herstellen, wenn sie mir eh keiner abkauft (ausser für den Skillgain, den den kriegt man in höheren Leveln scheinbar nur durch Items die reine Elemente brauchen)
Sprich es macht für keine der beiden Parteien Gegenstände die Reine Elemente brauchen zwichen Spielern zu Handeln.

Mögliche Lösung währen hier:
DropRate von Reinen Elemente dem gestiegenen Bedarf anpassen( ohne wird es nun ewig dauern von 90 auf 100 zu skillen)
Items die Reine Elemente brauchen nicht mehr durch NPCs verkaufen ( dadurch bleibt die Menge an Besonderen Items weiterhin Limitiert)
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

One thing after another.

First you dont have to be a Jack of all Trade. But there is more than just creating an Item, you have to make advertising for you, praise your Items, Haggel and make your self a name.

Next. The biggest Limitation of the Economy are at this moments Pure Elements an NPCs.

As Example. The Ressources off all Carpenter Items above "Wappenshield" ,have been Raised a lot.
Lets take an Ornated Towershield, for this i need 1 Meriniumbar( wich need 1 pure Fire to make) and also one pure Water. Benaith a bunch of Common Materials
In the moment i would set the sell Prices for Pure Elements on around 20 Gold. Depending on Rarity, demand and the ammount of Gold you can make in the time you need to find one.
So i need Ressources about 40 gold to make one item with a high chance to be only of Normal Quality, to guaranty an higher Quality i have to make at Least 5 of them.
An Item that is Sold be the NPC für 1,5 Gold. Even a Cloud Shield you can buy for just 2 Gold.

Question for the Buyer, why should he buy the Item by another Player who is forced to ask for much much more Money, Question for the Craftsman, why should i create any of these items i noone buys them( Except for skill gain, becouse all higher Items needs now pure elemts..)

Alsong you can buy these Items cheaper at the NPC than by any Player, there is no sense in buying it from Players.

Solutions:

-Rise the Drop Chance of Pure Elements(without this you will need a bunch of time to rise Skill from 90-100)
- take items that need Pure Elements out of the NPCs offer ( which would make the best items more Rare)

[Sammy Goldlieb]

Aye, ich schließ mich dir an. Jetzt benötigt man für jeden Sch*** reine Elemente. Hättet ihrs lieber wie vorher gelassen, dass man nur welche bei wirklich guten Dingen braucht. Mit dem Schmieden kommt man jetzt gar nicht weiter, weil die Elemente fehlen.
Lieber wieder so machen wies war oder Drop um viele % erhöhen.

LG

[Alrik]

Signed.....

Ich hab die letzten Tage einiges an Zeit verbracht Items zu schreinern für die ich keine reinen Elemente brauch, jeweils die "schwierigsten bzw höherwertigsten". Dazwischen natürlich auch RP betrieben, effekt war gleich 0 hinsichtlich skill. Anscheinend hängts hier wirklich an den reinen Elementen wenn man da noch mal besser werden will. Auf die eine oder andere weise müssten da wohl mehr ins Spiel - oder die Materialkosten wieder angepasst werden.

[Grim]

also ich finde es keine gute idee mehr Elemente ins spiel zu bringen, immerhin sind sie das einzige was noch halbwegs selten im spiel ist.
und zu den skills, also mein char hat seid beginn 7 level im schreinern gemacht, ohne auch nur ein Item zu machen was elemente benötigt
(auch vorher keine Items die jetzt elemente brauchen, naja glaub 2-3 schilde aber die dürften nicht ins gewicht fallen)