Attributes

[Salathe]

This is an issue that I believe has been present over the course of this game. Typically, technical information has been kept secret and shared under the guise of roleplay explanations, which is fine since I dont think anyone truly needs to know the damage formula may be ((str*2+dex*1.5)/perception)^2 or whatever... but every few years technical aspects are changed. Now with the VBU, it seems clear that again attribute definitions have been changed. In the past when attributes definitions were changed, attribute changes were offered to players (ie. when tactics was added and int became a fighting attribute). Reading some of the posts by Flux in the feedback thread it seems that attributes play an even bigger role than they did previously. So for a character like Salathe who was created at the last VBU (almost 9 years ago now?) his stat choices back then are outdated to updates of today... Even though I've partaken in previous attribute changes. So, I would like to ask if we will again be able to receive attribute changes for already existing characters?

On top of that, the list that Estralis compiled in the Newbies section (very nice! =D) should be on the page where players choose there stats. I *strongly* suggest this since the only information on character creation is:

"You have to put in the attributes of your character here. You should think well about this, because the attributes will not change anymore in the game."

A new player has barely any idea what to choose. I would also suggest that during character creation each attribute has a clear definition of what it affects. This could be through straight technical explanation, or through roleplay explanation, as long it covers what each attribute affects. Since according to Flux, while one may be a lead attribute that strongly effects the skill gain, it might only be a minor aspect when it comes to actual fighting (or any other activity). This is a crucial difference. A player may think... "I could leave my perception really low and take 5 times longer to learn a skill and use those points to be better in the long run" or vice versa. It'll help out new players a lot and reduce the dissatisfaction of realizing that after hours and hours of playing the game that you didnt put enough into dexterity because you've never played a game that has an attribute for crafting... and now everything you make is bad =(. Which is what happened to me and a number of other people 9 years ago at the last major update, we don't want such simple mistakes to occur again.

I understand a lot of this information is around the forums and some parts of the site, but it really should be presented while the players are choosing stats.

[Flux]

I agree with you, and that's why I'm being so clear with information about attributes. Obviously, noone needs to know the actual calculations, but people should know exactly what their attributes are going to do for them. We want to remove the complexity of Illarion, and make choices obvious.

[Nalzaxx]

As the information isn't relevant anymore, I thought I'd share the fruits of our extensive years of powergaming in the old system, and wonder just how close we were to the mark.

This is the final version of my attribute calculator:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/rrgemm

The values next to each skill are the percentage of max 'efficiency'. Max being defined as the efficiency of a character with 20 in all attributes.

The trick was of course to fiddle with the stats until you achieved the most bang for you buck.

In theory at least the strongest overall character would have the highest legacy.

[Flux]

This version of the file doesn't link the cells up to show the formulae you used to derive your "efficiencies", so I can't say.

Edit: Opened in OpenOffice and now see them. I'll take a peek.

Edit again:

Humans spot patterns in nothing. It makes us see faces in clouds, optical illusions work and it was massively responsible for our evolution as a species. You press a switch, a light turns on, you deduce that the light turns the switch on. Derren Brown did a very nice show where he showed some people becoming absolutely convinced they'd figure out the "method" for making numbers on a counter rise ("raise the counter to 100 to win £1000"), when in actuality it rose whenever a goldfish in another room swam past a line.

And with that in mind:
This spreadsheet is just wrong.

Tactics wasn't based on intelligence, it was learnt in the exact same way as every other fighting skill, you just had a 33% chance of getting a learnpoint in tactics every time you got a learnpoint in slash etc. . It was a raw damage modifier. I don't know whether it had anything to do with your speed (the speed formula had been changed before I got my hands on it), but I imagine it did the same thing as your weapon skill divided by 2. It didn't affect your ability to defend, you didn't learn it from parrying or dodging at all, and you didn't learn it better from fighting multiple monsters at once.

Your formula thought Parry efficiency was based entirely on agi/str/per. It was, in fact, based on dex, and none of the others.

Dodge wasn't based on attributes.

Every attack skill was based on the same formula. Just the weapon stats differed.

By the time I got my hands on the scripts, the attack rate formula had already been changed, so I can't comment on how that came into play, but you could say that agi would be important to all skills.

So.. a valiant effort, but it was ultimately wrong.

So now you can try and figure out the new system, with a good idea. I would say you should certainly max str and min the mage attributes. After that, the full effects of agi/str/dex balancing remain a mystery.

[Estralis Seborian]

http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=7226

[Firefly]

>>>>>>>>>> http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... =6&t=37414 <<<<<<<<<<

See this topic here for a list of attributes and what they do (or what they are needed for). There are minor requirements for some skills, but since there will be future changes to the attributes and how they effect your characters, the current list is all you need. Reply there if you have any questions.

Everything I know about the attributes is currently posted for you all to know. As I learn more, I will update the initial posts. We're working on creating something on the stats for the Homepage, so that new players that haven't discovered the forums yet will have ready access to the list.

[Retlak]

I'm sorry Flux, as useless as it is... we argued about this all last week and I must...challenge...argh

Tactics wasn't based on intelligence, it was learnt in the exact same way as every other fighting skill, you just had a 33% chance of getting a learnpoint in tactics every time you got a learnpoint in slash etc

Correct.

I don't know whether it had anything to do with your speed

Yes, majorly.

It didn't affect your ability to defend

I didn't pay attention to this aspect so..

you didn't learn it from parrying or dodging at all

Incorrect. Tactics got raised from parrying or dodging, not quite as fast as hitting something though.

and you didn't learn it better from fighting multiple monsters at once

Correct.


Love Matt

[Ufedhin]

We were informed that characters with alchemy skill would transfer to the vbu even if they dont have the stats required ,this seems to not be possible any longer which is fine.
However nor can we change our attribute's more than the two points , so this renders by one point my main characters skill usless as a total of 30 points in int,per,ess is needed to be an alchemist.

Annoying to say the least.

[Jupiter]

I don't agree with that decision and opend a discussion for the staff on that matter. We certainly will find a way that old chars get the chance to use alchemy if they want to.

[Flux]

you didn't learn it from parrying or dodging at all

Incorrect. Tactics got raised from parrying or dodging, not quite as fast as hitting something though.

Nope, the attacker learned tactics when the defender dodged or parried, but the defender did not.

[Aldan Vian]

I don't agree with that decision and opend a discussion for the staff on that matter. We certainly will find a way that old chars get the chance to use alchemy if they want to.

This please, the idea of playing my main character without Alchemy being his primary focus is just...wrong.

[Retlak]

you didn't learn it from parrying or dodging at all

Incorrect. Tactics got raised from parrying or dodging, not quite as fast as hitting something though.

Nope, the attacker learned tactics when the defender dodged or parried, but the defender did not.

No you're missing the point -> It's not a theory, it's already been DONE, Tactics could be raised by just standing there letting something hit you. Whatever script you've seen is either inactive, broken or outruled by a different script.

I'm not pulling your leg to wind you up, this is what actually happened IG.

Matt

[Flux]

That must've already been removed by the time I got my hands on it then. (That doesn't mean that what you say wasn't true on the rs, just on the ts).

[Fooser]

No you're missing the point -> It's not a theory, it's already been DONE, Tactics could be raised by just standing there letting something hit you. Whatever script you've seen is either inactive, broken or outruled by a different script.

I'm not pulling your leg to wind you up, this is what actually happened IG.

Matt

hacker, ban him

[Jupiter]

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... =1&t=37446